(From the Turd)
The House of the Rising Turd says:
I’m probably the only one on the planet who can explain this.
It’s long been known the text was appropriated by Plato from a Armenian Hellenic cult in Pamphylonia in the Persian Empire, Colotes of Lampsacus, of the Epicurean school, was the first to note this and several centuries later Proclus actually came across the text and confirmed if that was indeed the text, likely the case.
That’s uncommonly known but known none the less. It would of been a Luwian Greek society mixing with pagan Armenians, and Plato has been linked to borrowing from Armenian lore in this from modern historians. I won’t go into that as you can and should learn the basic research skills to track it down.
So you have three layers- a coastal pamphylonian Luwian-Greek culture, a Armenian influence, in the persian empire. But this also implies a fourth layer, the Hittites, who these Luwians in the bronze age were vassals to, and you are asking if it is linked to the Hebrews because Er is a Hebrew name, and Ur is a city of ancient Mesopotamia.
Unfortunately that’s a complicated history. Ur/Uruk was the first stone walled city state, do doubt (not the first fortified site) and it sits center of importance till the Lamentations of Ur, which the Greek Orthodox to this day copy in their Lametations of Constantinople liturgy. The sumerians didn’t have a concept of reincarnation. I know, I’ve read most of their translated texts. They originated concepts like The Golden Age, The Saturnalia, Holy Mountains/Axis Mundi, Water as the primordial element/ being tied to water, temple texts with the Mes set the rules for agamas and western temple texts and household ethics. Alot of myths, including some spurriously assigned to the Indo-Europeans, originate with them. The sunerians influenced alot of later cultures. Alot of philosophical concepts come from them. Not reincarnation. The did have myths and ghastly rituals of substitutes for bad omens (substitute kings who would be sacrificed to appease the bad omen- the literature on how to read omens was massive and I’ve read several volumes of it, and they added lots of commentary) and also substitutes for being sent to the underworld- such as Inanna’s Descent into the Underworld, where she didn’t want to be there so made her husband/twin/friend do it. If you ever watch the “Children of Dune” miniseries Leto in Jacarutu recreates this myth- his torture under the spice trace as his sister was being wedded to their enemy acts the myth out.
The myth merely involved substitution in the face of death. This over the centuries involved more complicated stories of extra characters involved, and these spread to other cultures. Eventually after the end of the bronze age a concept emerged of “A Chikd of the Desert”, which is sorta a concept of the much older concept “The Child of the Waters”. I’ve traced the Child of the Waters myth back to Central Asia, a swampy green electrical thing, likely a electric eel in the swamps on the Don. Later on its been speculated the zoroastrians linked it to burning gas fields. It also has Pontic and Mediterranean aspects, but for the most part sumeria. They had a mix of water and fire rites that you’d immediately recognize from the middle ages on tossing thr guilty into water to see if the float or burn them to test their guilt or innocence. That started in Iraq in the bronze age. When the Indo Europeans and Indo Iranians made it to sumeria, the cult of Enlil was already established, and Ur was a secondary ceremonial center and sometimes fighty little kingdom. The name of Ur was famous, had many new cities named after it, and countless later cultures unabashedly copied from them, including both Luwians, Hittites, and Minoans.
The ancestors (some at least) who entered sumeria would become zoroastrians. They adopted the fire rites, NOT the water rites. Another group went farther east and became the basis of the Rg Veda peoples. They both carry the myth of The Child of the Waters in Zoroastrian and Rg Veda, and Rg Veda carries many foreign loan words from their time spend here. In the 14th century a volcano erupted in the eastern Mediterranean, and the Goddess of the Forest in the Rg Veda became linked to Telipinu, the sleeping God who sleep killed the agriculture and life cycle of the world. You can see the influence of the volcanic dust in the story, as well as wax and the angry dancing thundering God.
The Hebrew come from the Child of the Desert. The child of the desert was a malovent to trickster God that lived on the outskirts of desert communities. Not a Jinn. Not a angel, but tied from hard to read fragmentary texts to the substitution and seasonal resurrection myths. The child became a sacrificial outcast from urbanized Egyptian and Sumerian/Assyrian life, likely due to limited property resources and malthusian pressures, getting rid of community members be sending them off packing. These people became nomads if they survived. Bandits, mercenaries for hire. Ebriru were also known as archers, and calvary men easily hired by militaries. They were also rebels, and greatly detested by ruling elites. Any rabble revolting be it Assyruan, Neo-Hittite or Egyptian overloards, saw the revolvers as Ebriru. It became a word associated with Hebrews, but Ebriru was a much larger term for just about anyone who annoyed the rulers of a state.
The early Hebrews, after breaking off from Egypt (in the 14th century the Egyptians controlled up to Egypt, so the Hebrews could of fled Egypt into lands from various degrees of Egyptian vassalage to independent Egyptian Skeptic rebel lands who had been free since the end of the bronze age but constantly reminded Egypt is near) had myths about their earlier Patriach, who many think came from Elba (a later Ur) incorporated the Chikd of the desert myth. The method by this time focused on twins, then pairs- one sacrificed pn a alter, and the other lead out and cast out into the desert. Issac was the one to be slaughtered (but wasn’t), and Ishmael was the troublesome Child of the Desert cast out. Jews did this all the time with Goats, wearing a red rope. They did it with white doves. North of Troy they did it with Mice. It was a belief in sacrifice in long development. It originated in sumeria with the myth I described but it influenced the world and vice versa the parts influenced and combined across the world. Lots of cultures did this. In the case of Greece, such as the Homeric myth of Demeter, we see the Hittite-Luwian myth of Telepinu is absorbed. But it’s volcanic origins is lost, hecate plays a role I won’t discuss too much other than to say it too originates from the child’s of the water and Enki-Zeus subterranean water rites in the Ideaen caves of Crete/Troy. Hecate is a long story.
The myth of demeter also ties it with Adonis vegetation rising and the realization that humans are not lost in the aperion / hades when dead but are reborn in the food web as plants. That has links to Callisto and Artemis (shape shifting chikd of the waters, again another long story). This started in the west in Crete, after the bronze age collapse, likely via a phonecian group wanting to find a natural mountain with a water cave that emulated their ziggurats they called mountsins Abzu- subterranean waters the ziggurats supposedly were built over.
Enki’s raging bull cult was copied and pasted to Crete, the child of the waters Enki the thundered became baby Zeus. The formless morphological change ability of the child became pure bring, hence why Plato went on pilgrimage to the cave and claimed it was the source and origin of pure being.
That was the greek concept. Rg Veda would adopt Mes into Rta, they never expanded their forest goddess (romans and Armenians did, it kept branching into west- Eos or fire blond hair hunting goddesses, goddess of dawn or sunset, or for romans sacred groves (won’t explain how it is related, just it). Their child of the waters myth went nowhere. Zoroastrians still have a prayer to it but nothing really otherwise, died off. Survived as Zeus who would shape-shifting and rape anything that moved. The jews stopped sacrificing after two events- Jesus who fulfilled the traditional role of the sacrificial animal and the destruction of the temple lapsing the kosher rules into oblivion.
In the case of the Greco-Armenian cult, they clearly didn’t know about zoroastrianism anymore more than Herodotus. The zoriastriabs were indo-iranians, many groups. They were the ones who have the mummies in the Gobi desert, I’ve talked with the professor who dud the studies in China (he teaches in Philadelphia now) and was interested in their links to the Zhou (a lake in the Gobi desert died up sending them packing south west). They met with groups doing sky burial (still done all along this route) and made it to persian groups and some were admitted into the Indo-European Rg Veda culture in Pakistan as full Brahmins (Indo Europeans and Indo Iranians had alot in common then). But the ones who were with the Persians left and helped Conquer the medians and babylonians. Herodotus had strange stories of them still burying their dead in wax like in the xinjiang, but also letting birds and dogs chew on the corpses (sky burial). He didn’t know much about the religion and prior to my research the stories largely contradict but now makes sense knowing the path they took prior, picking up other burial rites. It can be inferred from their time in the Gobi with mummification on raised platforms, and covering the dead with wax in Asia Minor, they didn’t like the dead losing theur composition but couldn’t mummify them like they used to, platforms rotted and fell over- they preferred mounds but also couldn’t leave the bodies exposed like in the Gobi because animals would eat them- so this evolved into the tower of silence where they didn’t bother to try to mummify but went the full sky burial approach, and the taboo of bodies touching the ground changed to decay contaminating the water system.
Zoroastrians don’t reincarnate. This Armenian cult in pamphylonia appears to of had a device that had gears, could spin and make noise on a program. Plato describes it in enough detail many have drawn it. I think it was just one of many cultic devices used in antiquity. Tablet of cebes is all about interpreting a picture of Ninevah left in a Greek temple to visitors, and Heron of Alexandria has all sorts of mechanics temples can use to impress visitors. I’ve even read of magnetic floating idols at some sites.
Basically this cult was doing its own thing, but knew Zoroaster was linked to their persian overlord class, and ran with it. Plato too pulled stuff out of his ass about zoroaster but never knew anything directly from authentic sources. The name Ur would of been famous by itself.
This is a translation of Proclus, a much later Neo-Platonist, discussing finding the book mentioned above:
academia.edu/47757112/PROCL … TH_OF_ER_I
The dedecon described later on likely refers to these garlic grave goods used centuries before but still found after process died across europe- but the high tide of the cult was 2nd to 4th. I’m close to solving it but have a few things still do research to do.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dodecahedron
