Universe and Time

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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:38 pm

James S Saint wrote:But with black holes colliding, the universe would never be without mass objects anyway. The process of mass coalescing and then colliding into explosions would have to be occurring eternally regardless of anything else going on (even if there were no black holes).

Too much power in the black holes.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:20 am

James S Saint wrote:What is the probability that the BBC is going to recant this video of theirs as the complete idiocy that it is:

These physicists believe that the black holes will bring us the "revolution" that will finish the rule of the time arrow. :wink:
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:47 am

Arminius wrote:These physicists believe that the black holes will bring us the "revolution" that will finish the rule of the time arrow. :wink:

Well, you can't have a church without magical fantasies. 8)
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:56 am

James, the following quote is your post that can be found on page 1 of this thread:

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:To you there is no end of the universe. And what about the time? Can you imagine that there is a backward running time?

No.

I would have to think about it more, but I'm pretty certain that there is no combination of changes that you could make that would cause a given state of the universe to roll backwards in time, even a small limited universe.

It is kind of an interesting problem, part of which would involve reversing the following;

Image

To reverse that occurrence, one would have to reverse the vector of the photon and also reverse absolute infinity with absolute zero. The vacuum of space would become solid and mass would be a hole in that solid. And also if you did that, "2+2" would equal "0" and "2-2" would equal "4". And that wouldn't be a problem except for the fact that it would reverse distance addition. If you added the distance between A and B twice, you would have less distance than what is between A and B. And that would then require that you defy logic itself such that "A = !A". And by making "A = !A", the photon is everything but the photon. If the photon is everything but the photon, then the photon isn't running backwards. But that is okay because running backwards is not running backwards (A=!A).

So in the long run, I suspect that an attempt to reverse time would reverse the attempt to reverse time and yield nothing.

Thus, no, I don't believe that there can ever be any region of space wherein time is reversed. Logic cannot be used against itself (else it wasn't logic to begin with). What we experience as the "real laws of physics" is the only possible way it can ever be anywhere at any time.

What is being called "The Arrow of Time" (whoever labeled it) is merely the effect of logic itself and can never be altered. But that is a slightly different issue than entropy reversal.

So I guess that means;
4.) our thoughts - is the problem. Once logic is fleshed out concerning physical existence, there is a total lack of alternatives. No universe can be any other way (except its current state, which must always be different).

Yesterday I found the following opening post of your thread: "Infinite Regression":

James S Saint wrote:For those of you who think that infinite regression of time is impossible, could you please explain WHY you think that it is? To me, it is obviously not impossible, and in fact is necessarily the reality.

So exactly what is your excuse for believing in a limited past for the universe (besides, "Because that is what I heard on TV")?

Can you put your statements about the "arrow of time" and the "infinite regression" of those two posts together in one statement?
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:35 pm

Arminius wrote:Can you put your statements about the "arrow of time" and the "infinite regression" of those two posts together in one statement?

Emm... no. But...

The arrow of time soars invariably forward, but neither from bow nor to target.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25976
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:46 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:Can you put your statements about the "arrow of time" and the "infinite regression" of those two posts together in one statement?

Emm... no. But...

The arrow of time soars invariably forward, but neither from bow nor to target.

What about the "infinite regression" then?
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:03 pm

Arminius wrote:What about the "infinite regression" then?

"Infinite regression" refers to thinking about the cause to effect chain of stages of the universe and imagining that it traces back infinitely, without a beginning; "That arrow of time invariably soars forward, but not from bow..." It doesn't refer to time going backwards, merely having come from and infinite past.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:40 am

One orbit around the galactic center of our sun takes about 250 million years. This is called a "galactic year".

So the following picture shows about 42 miilon years more than 2 galactic years (about 500 Million years):

Image
Frequency distribution of extinction events on Earth in the last 542 million years (1 galactic year = ca. 250 Million years).
Last edited by Arminius on Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:12 am

"Frequency distribution of extinctions"???
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:55 am

James S Saint wrote:"Frequency distribution of extinctions"???

Oh, sorry, I meant "frequency distribution of extinction events".
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:42 am

Time means change, yes, but times also means return of the same.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby surreptitious57 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:03 am

Arminius wrote:
Too much power in the black holes

Maybe after a googol of years has passed black holes shall no longer exist
All there will be left will be massless particles like photons and gravitons
And so even the most powerful things in the universe shall eventually die
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:23 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Arminius wrote:
Too much power in the black holes

Maybe after a googol of years has passed black holes shall no longer exist
All there will be left will be massless particles like photons and gravitons
And so even the most powerful things in the universe shall eventually die

There is no such thing as a physical graviton. And without mass particles, there won't be any photons either.

But I can't see any time past or future where there wasn't or won't be black holes.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:15 am

James S Saint wrote:And without mass particles, there won't be any photons either.

Perhaps mass particles need photons, but photons do not need mass. Whithout photons there won't be any mass particles.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:17 am

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:And without mass particles, there won't be any photons either.

Perhaps mass particles need photons, but photons do not need mass. Without photons there won't be any mass particles.

I discovered that mass particles form naturally from the chaos of random affectance. And that photons (the normal kind) are only formed by the motion of mass particles. Without mass particles, there is nothing to organized the random affectance into the required singularly directed puff of affectance that makes up a light photon. The popular theory is that the electron orbits around atoms collapse to initiate light photons. I haven't discovered anything to refute that and have found no other means for photons to be produced.

If the universe had actually begun, it could not have begun with light, but rather with mass in the form of extremely randomized EMR, "Affectance" that makes up the mass, which expanded to become low density enough to allow subatomic particles to form which then naturally produced light photons. Photons could not have come before subatomic particles.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:53 am

And you do not think that the discovery itself could be the problem, the mistake? You need light in order to discover mass particles. So for observers their result can only be and is always that "mass was before light", but that does not need to be true.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:08 am

Arminius wrote:And you do not think that the discovery itself could be the problem, the mistake?

No, but you are welcome to examine the evidence.

Arminius wrote:You need light in order to discover mass particles. So for observers their result can only be and is always that "mass was before light", but that does not need to be true.

All that I need is logic. The logic dictates that mass is formed without photons. And it is well accepted that photons form from the action of atoms. Logic also dictates that there can be nothing to form photons if there is no mass. But perhaps I made a mistake in my logic. Verify it for me.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:08 pm

I was referring to the the discoverer, the observer, the empiricism when I wrote that "you need light in order to discover mass particles", although it is also right that you need light, at least "a bit", for the use of your brain for logic. :)
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Moreno » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:31 pm

Arminius wrote:I was referring to the the discoverer, the observer, the empiricism when I wrote that "you need light in order to discover mass particles", although it is also right that you need light, at least "a bit", for the use of your brain for logic. :)
INterestingly it was found that life forms release small amounts of photons internally, less healthy organisms, fewer. There is some speculation that this is communicative. IOW it helps the organism work as a unit . given that photons are moving faster than, for example, nerve transmissions. Instead of domino type in relation to light rather slow cascading effects, you get almost instantious communication directly through the whole organism. Of course brains would be included.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:24 pm

My theory is that photons are analogous to sound waves. Sound waves are merely the product of movement on the atoms, altering our conscious perception. Photons are merely movment of the inverted space, aether, and they become slowed down, tangible to our realm. Sounds waves are to normal space, what photons are to inverted space, non space.

My brain is in max overdrive.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:23 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:My theory is that photons are analogous to sound waves.

A little. But sound waves quickly disperse whereas light photons very, very slowly disperse, depending on what they are traveling through. Through extremely vacuous space (between the galaxies) photons do not disperse much at all. They are tiny puffs of the medium (the affectance field) that hold together as long as there isn't much interference. Sound waves require a medium and very quickly disperse regardless of the medium. Photons travel best without any medium.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:05 pm

Sound waves don't seem to exist. They seem to be an inversion of what they are not, an invisible cause causing atoms to move to where they are not.

Photons seem to exist, and atoms force photons to obey them, rather than causing atoms to move to where they are not. Since they are the inverse of sound waves, I would posit that photons that actually heat atoms, cause atoms to move towards them, becoming like photons (since heat is a chaotic sine wave function.)

Music to go with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIYuVT6R3ec


syrup wrote:black holes will die, photons will die, everything will die

You under estimate the power of schizophrenia. When there is no consciousness, time will travel infinitely, consciousness may be a pesky problem.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:09 pm

They aren't really in the form of a "sine function". Sine functions/waves are used as an approximation to simplify the math. There are no natural sine waves in nature, but sine functions can be used to make approximations for a variety of things.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby zinnat » Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:19 pm

There must be some kind of mass before the light. This is a misperception that photons/light is needed in the first place toform or discover mass, thus photons must be formed before anything else.

Some people may find it extremely naive but the fact of the matter is that one needs a mind to observe mass, not photons.

Now, one may ask again how can even a mind can see/observe mass without photons?

The answer is simple. It is not mind but seeing organs (eyes) that requires photons to obseve mass or existence. Mind can observe the mass without the help the eyes/photons.

I am not sure but it looks to me that some science theorists tend to take the clue from the Bible (let there be light).

With love,
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:19 pm

No. It was just a thought - not more. And it is true: a discoverer, an observer, an empiricist needs light in order to be capable of discovering, observing, being an empiricist. The idea that the light was before the mass is interesting but not necessarily true. I have learned that the reverse is true. But nevertheless: I am always skeptic. :wink:
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