darwinism does not explain

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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby Arminius » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:18 am

turtle wrote:Darwinism does not explain where new species come from....how do you like that

Darwinism can explain many things but not all because it is the trial and the error to explain biological development (evolution) by demographic and economic developments (compare: Thomas R. Malthus). And that does not work completely. There is something like a „missing link“ between biology on the one side and demography and economy on the other side. The evolution of the species does not only function by adaptation or fitting but also by dissociation or distancing.

The Darwinian evolution theory consists of three prnicples: (1) heredity (inheritance, descent), (2) variation, (3) selection; and just the selection which is the moct characteristic principle of the Darwinian evolution theory is at least partly false.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby phoneutria » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:21 am

Ecmandu wrote:
phoneutria wrote:Just read the article, ok?


I just read the article, it took me a few minutes because I read fast. It never talked about the game theory of evolving from oceans to fresh water. Any transitional species would have had transitional predators, and the predators would have had more weight than the prey because of the decrease in surface area between salt water and fresh water areas. This would have pushed the fish and the predators back into the ocean. It's not logically possible from basic game theory that there would ever have been a completely fresh water fish, being as they all arose from sea water.


Your argument is absurd if you consider the fact that evolution happens over the course of millions of years. A species could have lived in fresh water completely predator free for tens of thousands of years before a mutation in a predator species allowed it to go into fresh water as well.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby Kriswest » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:22 am

Has anyone brought up the evolution / mutation of germs and viruses within a year or two???
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby turtle » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:47 pm

how about SYMBIOGENESIS.....what do you think about lichens and how they were created...
I thought when you go on the science site you could discuss science...I was wrong...
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby statiktech » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:29 pm

It's not logically possible from basic game theory that there would ever have been a completely fresh water fish, being as they all arose from sea water.


Can you explain why? It makes perfect sense to me that adapting to fresh water would have been beneficial due to competition for resources, among other things. If an organism can only survive in water, it makes sense that they'd eventually spread to just about every livable aquatic environment there is over a long enough time span. I'm also confused why you keep bringing up game theory because, as far as I know, it's about decision making. Organisms don't really choose when and where to evolve and adapt like that.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:43 pm

turtle wrote:I thought when you go on the science site you could discuss science...I was wrong...

I tried to tell you that a long time ago.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
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The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby statiktech » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:53 pm

turtle wrote:how about SYMBIOGENESIS.....what do you think about lichens and how they were created...
I thought when you go on the science site you could discuss science...I was wrong...


Lichens are pretty fascinating. In short, a symbiotic relationship between organisms leads to the formation of a composite organism with different features than its constituents.

To be fair, you haven't really bothered to discuss anything in this thread. You just keep asking what people think of this or that. Maybe if you offered a view of your own or an argument of some sort a discussion could ensue.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby phyllo » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:56 pm

James S Saint wrote:
turtle wrote:I thought when you go on the science site you could discuss science...I was wrong...

I tried to tell you that a long time ago.

Turtle is only going to get a discussion if he articulates a POV. A couple of lines asking what people think about something is not enough to generate interest.

Yeah, what Stat said. :text-+1:
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby turtle » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:18 pm

phyllo wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
turtle wrote:I thought when you go on the science site you could discuss science...I was wrong...

I tried to tell you that a long time ago.

Turtle is only going to get a discussion if he articulates a POV. A couple of lines asking what people think about something is not enough to generate interest.

Yeah, what Stat said. :text-+1:


very good....can anyone here articulate a pov about symbiogenesis...you guys know about that....the problem I have with evolution -----I don't think random mutations explain what we are seeing with homo sapiens....there must be something else going on having to do with nature.....I am not talking about any god thing..
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:38 pm

turtle wrote:I don't think random mutations explain what we are seeing with homo sapiens
???
What are you seeing?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby turtle » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:48 pm

James S Saint wrote:
turtle wrote:I don't think random mutations explain what we are seeing with homo sapiens
???
What are you seeing?


I cant believe that random mutations and genetic mixing of races account for the change in our brain during the last 1-4 million years...james help me out...I have a hard time putting things in words...I am working on it...
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:50 pm

James S Saint wrote:
turtle wrote:I don't think random mutations explain what we are seeing with homo sapiens
???
What are you seeing?



I don't think you can avoid random mutations... within a certain class, obviously goats don't come out of humans. I do think that we have accelerated much faster than is allowed by natural selection, and I don't think it's a flaw in the theory, I think we were genetically modified by another species with other hominid species on this earth. Actually, if they hadn't screwed with us, in a few hundred million years, the bonobos would have evolved to a much better species than homosapiens.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:57 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
turtle wrote:I don't think random mutations explain what we are seeing with homo sapiens
???
What are you seeing?



I don't think you can avoid random mutations... within a certain class, obviously goats don't come out of humans. I do think that we have accelerated much faster than is allowed by natural selection, and I don't think it's a flaw in the theory, I think we were genetically modified by another species with other hominid species on this earth. Actually, if they hadn't screwed with us, in a few hundred million years, the bonobos would have evolved to a much better species than homosapiens.


Darwin called this "descent through modification" which is a different concept than random mutations... the "descent" part being key here.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby statiktech » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:12 pm

But that correlates with a change in gene frequency, not actual genetic manipulation from an external source. Also, mutations are a mechanism of modification.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby statiktech » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:17 pm

turtle wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
turtle wrote:I don't think random mutations explain what we are seeing with homo sapiens
???
What are you seeing?


I cant believe that random mutations and genetic mixing of races account for the change in our brain during the last 1-4 million years...james help me out...I have a hard time putting things in words...I am working on it...


Millions of years is a long time. You might also want to consider selection pressures that would likely favor beneficial traits such as increased brain complexity and intelligence.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:19 pm

statiktech wrote:But that correlates with a change in gene frequency, not actual genetic manipulation from an external source. Also, mutations are a mechanism of modification.


Nah... evolution doesn't have a species that was barely making stone tools, like chimps and bonobos do, turn into a highly technologically advanced society with a writing vocabulary of over a million words in the span of 6000 years. Something was tweaked with. Why didn't the chimps and bonobos go through this revolution..? they've had the same pressures as we have. Even elephants paint. It just doesn't add up. I know the evolutionary theory has added a concept called pnctuated equilibrium to account for sharp changes, but we're talking about millions of sharp changes all at once. Evolution just doesn't work like that.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby turtle » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:21 pm

do you have any other ideas.....
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:25 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
statiktech wrote:But that correlates with a change in gene frequency, not actual genetic manipulation from an external source. Also, mutations are a mechanism of modification.


Nah... evolution doesn't have a species that was barely making stone tools, like chimps and bonobos do, turn into a highly technologically advanced society with a writing vocabulary of over a million words in the span of 6000 years. Something was tweaked with. Why didn't the chimps and bonobos go through this revolution..? they've had the same pressures as we have. Even elephants paint. It just doesn't add up. I know the evolutionary theory has added a concept called pnctuated equilibrium to account for sharp changes, but we're talking about millions of sharp changes all at once. Evolution just doesn't work like that.


I mean c'mon, the egyptians have "core 7" a piece of granite core found in the temple outside the pyramid complex at Giza that can only be drilled by something better than diamonds measured by the space between the lines. You really think we just lost technology like that? Or was it brought here by another species?
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby statiktech » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:27 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
statiktech wrote:But that correlates with a change in gene frequency, not actual genetic manipulation from an external source. Also, mutations are a mechanism of modification.


Nah... evolution doesn't have a species that was barely making stone tools, like chimps and bonobos do, turn into a highly technologically advanced society with a writing vocabulary of over a million words in the span of 6000 years. Something was tweaked with. Why didn't the chimps and bonobos go through this revolution..? they've had the same pressures as we have. Even elephants paint. It just doesn't add up. I know the evolutionary theory has added a concept called pnctuated equilibrium to account for sharp changes, but we're talking about millions of sharp changes all at once. Evolution just doesn't work like that.


Where did you get the figure of 6000 years? Chimps and bonobos went through their own changes, just not the same changes. Why should they be expected to evolve in the exact same way? Evolution clearly does work like that.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:31 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
statiktech wrote:But that correlates with a change in gene frequency, not actual genetic manipulation from an external source. Also, mutations are a mechanism of modification.


Nah... evolution doesn't have a species that was barely making stone tools, like chimps and bonobos do, turn into a highly technologically advanced society with a writing vocabulary of over a million words in the span of 6000 years. Something was tweaked with. Why didn't the chimps and bonobos go through this revolution..? they've had the same pressures as we have. Even elephants paint. It just doesn't add up. I know the evolutionary theory has added a concept called pnctuated equilibrium to account for sharp changes, but we're talking about millions of sharp changes all at once. Evolution just doesn't work like that.


I mean c'mon, the egyptians have "core 7" a piece of granite core found in the temple outside the pyramid complex at Giza that can only be drilled by something better than diamonds measured by the space between the lines. You really think we just lost technology like that? Or was it brought here by another species?


http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/egyptxtremasonry.htm
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:32 pm

statiktech wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
statiktech wrote:But that correlates with a change in gene frequency, not actual genetic manipulation from an external source. Also, mutations are a mechanism of modification.


Nah... evolution doesn't have a species that was barely making stone tools, like chimps and bonobos do, turn into a highly technologically advanced society with a writing vocabulary of over a million words in the span of 6000 years. Something was tweaked with. Why didn't the chimps and bonobos go through this revolution..? they've had the same pressures as we have. Even elephants paint. It just doesn't add up. I know the evolutionary theory has added a concept called pnctuated equilibrium to account for sharp changes, but we're talking about millions of sharp changes all at once. Evolution just doesn't work like that.


Where did you get the figure of 6000 years? Chimps and bonobos went through their own changes, just not the same changes. Why should they be expected to evolve in the exact same way? Evolution clearly does work like that.


That's about when writing surfaced that wasn't pictograms....
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby turtle » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:33 pm

statiktech wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
statiktech wrote:But that correlates with a change in gene frequency, not actual genetic manipulation from an external source. Also, mutations are a mechanism of modification.


Nah... evolution doesn't have a species that was barely making stone tools, like chimps and bonobos do, turn into a highly technologically advanced society with a writing vocabulary of over a million words in the span of 6000 years. Something was tweaked with. Why didn't the chimps and bonobos go through this revolution..? they've had the same pressures as we have. Even elephants paint. It just doesn't add up. I know the evolutionary theory has added a concept called pnctuated equilibrium to account for sharp changes, but we're talking about millions of sharp changes all at once. Evolution just doesn't work like that.


Where did you get the figure of 6000 years? Chimps and bonobos went through their own changes, just not the same changes. Why should they be expected to evolve in the exact same way? Evolution clearly does work like that.


you both bring up good points....I don't agree with either of you but you are thinking...I just don't think we know.....the hardest thing for a guy to say is.. I don't know...
does any random mutation end in speciation....
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby phoneutria » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:38 pm

turtle wrote:how about SYMBIOGENESIS.....what do you think about lichens and how they were created...
I thought when you go on the science site you could discuss science...I was wrong...


What exactly are you asking?
What do I think about it... it's a theory, a good one.
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby turtle » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:43 pm

phoneutria wrote:
turtle wrote:how about SYMBIOGENESIS.....what do you think about lichens and how they were created...
I thought when you go on the science site you could discuss science...I was wrong...


What exactly are you asking?
What do I think about it... it's a theory, a good one.


do you believe it explains the lichens evolution
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Re: darwinism does not explain

Postby statiktech » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:44 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
statiktech wrote:Where did you get the figure of 6000 years? Chimps and bonobos went through their own changes, just not the same changes. Why should they be expected to evolve in the exact same way? Evolution clearly does work like that.


That's about when writing surfaced that wasn't pictograms....


Oh, I get ya. I'm not sure we know exactly why our evolution split from that of chimps and bonobos, but it did as far as we know. After writing surfaced, we had a way to record and share ideas that could be built upon. That alone would account for a good bit of innovation in language and elsewhere.
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