The difference, though, is that I wasn’t trying to convert him. I was merely responding to his points as part of a discussion, in the spirit that they were presented to me.
Which is what I always do.
Not in a million years.
You are just generally clueless
If you want to know why Remain lost, and why Labour keeps losing, it’s in that attitude right there.
People don’t like being told they’re thick and clueless one minute, then asked to vote for the very same people that told them the next.
No, that’s what Brexit is about according to the Remainer narrative, as described by a biased political source. All politicians are corrupt, though Labour seems to be in bed with Islamists, which is something the Tories can never be accused of.
Brexit was a genuine popular movement, that mainstream politicians only latched onto in its final stages.The referendum was the only time in a very long time that voting actually made a difference. I very well remember the follwing day, the Friday, after our surprise win. I went to the shops and complete strangers were coming up to me, congratulating everyone on winning, on overthrowing the corrupt establishment. A mood of genuine optimism and elation. Little did we know, of course, just how dirtily the establishment were going to fight us over the next few years, and the danger our democracy was in.
Okay, but if you believe that anyone who attempts to change your mind about Labour is wasting their time, that seems to suggest [to me] that your opposition to Labour is beyond merely a political prejudice rooted subjectively in the manner in which I construe the self here as the existential embodiment of dasein, but is more rock solid.
And yet the fact is that you can have new experiences, acquire new relationships and have access to new information and knowledge which prompts you to change your mind about vaccinations or Labour or Brexit or any other value that, here and now, you accept as the most rational.
It’s how far this can be taken that matters most to me. I’ve taken it about as far as one can — to a “fractured and fragmented” sense of self in the is/ought world.
My main aim here is to suggest that in regard to value judgments swirling around the vaccination controversy, the objectivists among us connect the vaccination dot itself to one or another larger political dogma. They often react as Sculptor does in heaping scorn on those who don’t think like they do. He’s just another fulminating fanatic to me. Even though we share many of the same opinions on religion and politics. But in very, very different ways. For him you are “generally clueless” because you dare to disagree with him. I am no longer able to think that way myself.
With you, however, the mystery that has always intrigued me most is how you connect the dots between your moral and political value judgments and your commitment to Paganism in general and to the Goddess in particular.
You choose certain behaviors that seem connected to a spiritual reality that either guides you fully or allows you to pick and choose of your own personal inclination. Which I intertwine in dasein. The part I can never seem to grasp.
He was attempting to change my mind by swearing at me and calling me stupid. I can guarantee that that’s not going to work.
My views on vaccinations, Brexit and Labour have all evolved and are still evolving. For example, the more clearly obvious the vaccination success has been in reducing the death rate by 95%, even in the middle of what is technically a third wave, led me to gradually lessen my own personal concerns about having it. Similarly, while I voted for Brexit, I knew that there were some good points about EU membership too, but that they were outweighed by the bad. The success of the UK vaccine rollout and the disastrous fiasco of the EU’s vaccine rollout has made me absolutely certain that we made the right decision. While we could not have anticipated the pandemic at the time, we nevertheless knew that the EU is corrupt, unaccountable and incompetent, and so it has proven to be. As for Labour, their pathetic vacilations over Brexit led me to lose any respect for their integrity, and calling for a second referendum was the final straw, as I’m sure it was with millions of others too. I find their deliberate, decades-long ignoring of Muslim grooming gangs targeting thousands and thousands of underage and vulnerable working class English girls in Labour-run council children’s homes completely and utterly disgusting. Their current leader, Sir Keir Starmer, was a party to this cover up under the last Labour government, as head of the Crown Prosecution Service. My opinion of Labour, therefore, has evolved quite a lot, and there was once a time when I might even have voted for them.
medium.com/@lucynevitt/starmers … fabd38bb6d
So, to answer your question, my commitment to Paganism and the Goddess informs all of these decisions. As a Pagan, I regard it as my duty to others, and to society, to have the vaccine, but at the same time Paganism promotes personal responsibility and independence, which I’ve always felt to be very important, hence, among other things, my support for Brexit. My commitment to the Goddess causes me to reject Labour and its appalling record of protecting women and girls from sexual assault and rape.
Another take on vaccination:
nytimes.com/2021/07/24/opin … e=Homepage
[b]"Globally, the Covid-19 pandemic is a threat because of scarcity of vaccines, with the highly transmissible Delta variant threatening millions around the world who can’t get vaccinated.
In the United States, the threat is dysfunction, with unwanted vaccines ready to expire on the shelves as desperate people around the world die for lack of them.
‘This is becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated,’ Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, recently said, as the data shows that almost everyone who died from Covid-19 recently was unvaccinated.
Certainly the severe consequences will fall mostly on the unvaccinated. But the dysfunction affects all Americans."[/b]
And…
[b]…initial data from Britain suggests that Delta may lead to more-severe cases than previous variants. That question remains unsettled, but the possibility greatly increases the urgency for a powerful public health response.
In addition, Delta seems to be able to evade some immunity, so, compared to earlier variants, vaccinated or previously infected people are more likely to have infections break through their immunity, even ones leading to mild or moderate symptoms, which means they may be more likely to transmit onward, too. Thus even the vaccinated may pose a danger to unvaccinated children or vulnerable co-workers."[/b]
Curse all those who push and promote this genocide, blood is on your hands and you will pay:
perpetualburn wrote:
How about “embracing” the notion of holding off on an experimental vaccine until there are long term studies on its side effects? ( i.e. not rushing to the nearest fucking McDonald’s which only in clown world literally doubles as a vaccination site). How about the fact that majority of people that went and got the vaccine didn’t even consult with their own doctor first because they were in such a mad, media induced rush to get injected with the miracle cure.
Totally agree except
“didn’t even consult with their own doctor first”
Some doctors promote it, maybe pressure from the Pharmaceutical companies, other doctors do not.
I know a few people who have had it and they have come out in a rash like chicken pox/shingles, pus filled blisters, some on their faces and others on their legs and feet when questioned their doctors told not related to the vaccine, even though one couple had the same reaction the next day after the vaccine.
Vaccines are bad. Why? Because you can’t trust government.
No. You think far too much of yourself. You might have all the little boys on the Forum drooling over your provocative picture, but you are just a nasty peice of work and I’m too old to give a damn
You can place pearls before swine but all they do is shit on them. You are a lost cause
This is how Remainers and Labour supportors treat those who disagree. And he wonders why I get annoyed.
Many aspects of the immune response generated by DNA vaccines are not understood.
However, this has not impeded significant progress towards the use of this type of vaccine in humans.
Do you want someone to mess with your genetic makeup, particularly when they don’t understand what’s going to happen?
It is totally unethical to introduce DNA or RNA sequences which become part of my humanity when testing has been done for such a short period of time. Absolutely horrendous.
“Morons should educate themselves”.
These vaccines are not DNA therapy.
Please educate yourself!
Although vaccines might contain vaccine it is not human DNA and so cannot change, modify, change or affect IN ANY way your genetic makeup.
Educate yourself!
We all die with the same genome we were born with and nothing can change that.
Educate yourself!
The vaccine cannot and shall not become “part of my humanity”, in any meaninglull sense.
Please educate yourself!
Yes, he has done the same with me. And when those like him – including me from time to time – react to differences of opinions through mockery, I always come back around to this:
urwrongx1000/adam was much the same way with me.
My main interest in arguments such as this is the extent to which those making them recognize them to be political prejudices more so than objective truths derived from the assumption that unless others share them they are inherently and necessarily wrong. And in recognizing that the other side can accumulate their own set of assumptions and be just as committed to them.
Also, in recognizing how our own value judgments are often rooted in the particular experiences we had given our own unique lives. And that should this life change dramatically for any number of reasons so too can our moral and political values. For the objectivists though what never changes is the belief that however their lives might lead them in different directions there is still always that firm commitment to those who are deemed “one of us” [the good guys] and that fierce opposition to those who are deemed “one of them” [the bad guys]. There is just how far and fanatically they are then willing to take this. For some, all the way to the gas chambers.
There is what we think, what we believe, and there is the way that can be profoundly, problematically shaped and molded by the experiences we have. Some are still convinced there is the optimal or the only rational manner in which to think about vaccinations or government or nature. I’m just no longer one of them myself.
Again, what would be interesting to me here is to engage in a discussion with those who share a commitment to the same God or Goddess, the same religious or spiritual path, but still have conflicting moral and political value judgments. The part where the God or Goddess, much like other components of their life, prompt them to take opposing positions about things like vaccinations.
From my frame of mind, the most intriguing aspects of such a belief is not the belief itself but how someone comes to believe it given the life they lived. And how, had that life been very different, they would not have come to believe it at all. After all, to the best of my knowledge, no one who believes in Gods or Goddesses has ever actually demonstrated that they do in fact exist. And, clearly, if that could be demonstrated, belief would be derived not from faith derived existentially from the life they lived…but derived essentially from the God or the Goddess Himself or Herself.
And then the part where, once you commit yourself to a particular God or Goddess understood in a particular way, a kind of “trade off” ensues. On the one hand, a belief in a particular religious/spiritual path can provide you with considerable comfort and consolation in what can be an uncertain, precarious and even dangerous world. You feel anchored to something that is so much bigger than yourself. Your life now has Meaning and Purpose. And then, for some, the part where a religious/spiritual belief encompasses as well the chance at immortality. Maybe even salvation.
On the other hand, in attaching yourself to this transcending font, you limit the options available to you. You feel obligated to behave only insofar as you remain on the one true path. What pleasures and adventures and rewarding experiences might you be missing in living your life simply because you are obligated to embody only the straight and the narrow commitment to this or that God or this or that the Goddess.
Not to mention that there are hundreds of them “out there” to choose from. And then the odds that your own is the right one.
Only perhaps for you and for others the Goddess is understood in a very different way. A way in which I have no real understanding of at all. And with no machine around able to allow me to think about it as you do, the gap may well never narrow.
There is no standard political position within Paganism, just as there is no standard form of Paganism, though it’s probably fair to say that Pagans are often far more environmentally aware than the general population. And Paganism isn’t really a belief, either, but rather group of practices, and as a whole, it certainly doesn’t promise any specific sort of afterlife. The Goddess, to me, is mother nature, and I don’t have to invest in any particular set of beliefs, still less any sort of faith, to follow that path. So in a sense, I can very easily prove that the Goddess exists, because she is, simply, nature, though obviously, whether you choose to ascribe any sort of divinity to this is entirely up to you. Having said that, some branches of Paganism are indeed more specific, though they often contradict each other, but no one really worries about that.
When it comes to political opinions, as a Pagan I have a deep respect for life, nature, and community, and this certainly influences my views. In addition, my opinions on certain matters are often strongly influenced by the sort of people that promote them. I doubt if any of the opinions are objectively true, though, because there’s probably no such thing.
Then you should educate yourself, it has been proven by the cdc themself that they don’t know what they’re doing and shouldn’t be trusted.
“Thimerosal is a mercury-based preservative that has been used for decades in the United States in multi-dose vials (vials containing more than one dose) of medicines and vaccines. There is no evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site. However, in July 1999, the Public Health Service agencies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine manufacturers agreed that thimerosal should be reduced or eliminated in vaccines as a precautionary measure.”
cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/conce … index.html
Mercury doesn’t exactly have a history of being “good” for people considering Isaac Newton died of it and many others I’m sure, typically neurotoxins and minerals aren’t good in any form or method.
Says no evidence of harm but then says “we don’t know what the adverse effects are” that there shows their blatant ignorance and refusal to admit that there could have been bad associated with thimerosal yet still gave it to people despite not knowing there could be bad but not knowing what it is. Which shows me they cannot be trusted with my well being and vaccination unless long long long trials and experimenting with it before hand. If having to use caution/precaution, probably not safe to administer without knowing. If no caution/precaution, why discontinue use? You answer that and show evidence of it not being bad and you may sway me, if not, then be quiet and go educate yourself since you like to call people morons and tell them to do exactly what you should do.
I don’t think you understand who you’re calling a “moron” anyways. Good day.
Yeah he doesn’t understand or do the research to see why it can’t be trusted, so let him be a guinea pig. Not my genetics so I don’t care otherwise. CDC and government have already proven they cannot be trusted because they too are humans and prone to error or not understanding fully, says right in the article as clear as day that I linked from the cdc itself. Cannot trust.