Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:15 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:u guys legit trying to overturn a scotus opinion with a fucking entry from dictionary dot com im dying over here
See my post above. Just because the SC once said something in a specific context does not mean that it now applies, applies in the specific context, or is understood by the people quoting it. And then see the post below to see how the reference to the SC' statement was not present in the full context.

Everybody just sees the information, these days, that suits them. All sides. And then they call it authority.

That's a pandemic. And viruses like this don't care about political affiliation.
Last edited by Karpel Tunnel on Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:19 pm

And if anyone wants more context for Burdick see this newsweek article....
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-p ... lt-1550716

The comment in Burdick was part of a non-binding ober dictum.

There is another take from the Washington Post.
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 9#p2790156

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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:59 am

KT, did PK present Fake News?
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:08 am

WendyDarling wrote:KT, did PK present Fake News?
It's not really news. Fake fact, perhaps. Though to be fair, it is not completely clear what it means, but I would say the evidence does not support it being an admission of guilt, since we have instances that were clearly not that, as in the Newsweek piece. Throw in the condescending title of the thread and it's a bit embarrassing, but not in the same category with Fake News.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:22 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:They tried to sue a member of a President-elect's cabinet for having meetings with foreign powers about what that president's policy would be, because the president hadn't been officially inaugurated yet.

Meanwhile John Kerry conducts a parallel foreign policy campaign with the likes of China, Iran and Ukraine, at least two of those actual enemies of the US, with impunity, and Biden is already meeting with heads of the EU.

Communists are a joke. You all would be ashamed of yourselves, if you had selves.


Pedro I Rengel wrote:The worst part is that I can't tell, say, someone like Mr R that he's a hypocrite, because that would require him knowing any of this, and I know he doesn't. He just knows CNN told him Flynn is guilty, of what he is not exactly sure, and Orange Man Bad.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:33 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:KT, did PK present Fake News?
It's not really news. Fake fact, perhaps. Though to be fair, it is not completely clear what it means, but I would say the evidence does not support it being an admission of guilt, since we have instances that were clearly not that, as in the Newsweek piece. Throw in the condescending title of the thread and it's a bit embarrassing, but not in the same category with Fake News.

Fake News contains Fake Facts.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:55 pm

Yes. Proposing fake facts is Fake News.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:03 am

obsrvr524 wrote:Yes. Proposing fake facts is Fake News.
I guess, though it seems to me our posts here, including PK's, are not news. I suppose if someone picks up his posts and they enter a twitter storm or something but this is the boondocks of the internet, I don't think we're influencing anything, here. Perhaps honing something which could influence elsewhere.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:36 pm

Well, maybe PK and Mr. Reasonable are away for the weekend.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:30 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Well, maybe PK and Mr. Reasonable are away for the weekend.


K: Kropotkin works retail and this being less then two weeks out from X-mas...
one very busy person until Jan......

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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:23 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Well, maybe PK and Mr. Reasonable are away for the weekend.


K: Kropotkin works retail and this being less then two weeks out from X-mas...
one very busy person until Jan......

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Or that. No worries, the thread is here.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:46 am

Bump
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:44 pm

Well, PK and Mr. Reasonable, what to you think of what I found in Newsweek and the Washington about the actual context for that Supreme Court quote and also more information about how the pardon is viewed?
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:41 am

the idea that there is debate among legal scholars is sort of an idea that can be brought up on just about any issue that one might seek to analyze but that doesnt change the fact that simply put, you dont need to be forgiven for a crime that you did not commit. its like pleading the 5th. if you dont have anything to hide, and you are telling the truth, and you are willing to argue your case then a reasonable person should believe that the truth will prevail and that their innocence will be shown. similarly with a pardon, if you didnt do anything wrong, then what would you pardon yourself for? why wouldnt you face your accusers and bring all the facts to light and expose them as frauds if you were in fact innocent?

it doesnt take a legal scholar or a fucking philosopher to figure this out.

at the end of the day, pardons are only for federal crimes. there are robust, far reaching state level investigations that have been in the works for several years now that are being held for when trump loses presidential immunity. he can pardon himself and his kids for whatever federal crimes he wants but the issue, is in fact moot. state prosecutors can do the same thing that federal ones can, they just lock you in a different box.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:44 am

michael flynn, an educated career millitary man of high rank to the degree that his military service essentially equates to being a politician, a guy who traveled the world and has been in govt his entire life, walked into a courtroom and entered a guilty plea.

somehow q nuts and maga are still screaming that he is innocent.

hes not an illiterate kid in a ghetto that got tricked by a savvy prosecutor into pleading to something he didnt do. hes a fucking general for gods sake.

the mental gymnastics that it takes for someone to call this man innocent after he himself pleads guilty are astounding and completely incomprehensible to any rational mind.

flynn pled guilty. i believe him.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:20 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:the idea that there is debate among legal scholars is sort of an idea that can be brought up on just about any issue that one might seek to analyze but that doesnt change the fact that simply put, you dont need to be forgiven for a crime that you did not commit.
OK, so you didn't read that part where it pointed out OBVIOUS cases where the presidential pardon was used because the person was considered innocent. Instead you restate opinions already stated, appeal to incredulity and seem incapable of conceding that the issue is not clear. That's it. That's all it would take. The thread's tone, as started by PK is that the issue is just simply clear as a bell and those disagreeing with him are fools. You joined in the tone. Well, it's not clear to legal scholars, it's not clear to Newsweek and the Washington Post (hardly right wing conspiracy websites) and it has not been clear to Presidents who used the pardon CLEARLY in relation to people they considered innocent (and others did also).

It's obvious to you, so it should be obvious to anyone. I mean, all it would take here is for you to say: OK, the issue is not clear. A concession instead of your smug opinion that anyone disagreeing with you is an idiot, presumably including legal scholars and Presidents who have used the pardon in ways that do not fit your model. (the pardons that do not fit your model are in the links I presented above).
For example....
Indeed, in rare cases pardons are used to exonerate people. This was Trump’s rationale for posthumously pardoning boxer Jack Johnson, the victim of a racially based railroading in 1913. Ford pardoned Iva Toguri d’Aquino (World War II’s “Tokyo Rose”) after “60 Minutes” revealed that she was an innocent victim of prosecutors who suborned perjured testimony in her treason case. President George H.W. Bush pardoned Caspar Weinberger because he thought the former defense secretary, indicted in the Iran-contra affair, was a victim of “the criminalization of policy differences.” If the president pardons you because he thinks you are innocent, what guilt could accepting that pardon possibly admit?


Further, people stated in the thread that 'it was a Supreme Court decision' but that's the whole point and why it is not clear in the law: it was one justice writing a kind of side note.

And then we get down into reality. What is a person actually doing when they accept a pardon. Are they always admitting guilt? No.

Whatever Mr. Reasonable. Think about a name change. Because you are as reasonable as the people on the other side of most of your issues who can never concede anything either. Oh, ok, it wasn't so clear after all and if you disagreed with PK, it didn't mean you were an idiot, there was more to this than I realized. Such things are beyond the scope of modern discourse. Kill the enemy, be smug.....
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:53 pm

I didn't read anything, but I glanced the name Michael Flynn from smears and I am pretty sure I know what he will go on about.

Michael Flynn, a cabinet member for a president elect, met with foreign powers to begin putting in place the president elect's foreign policy.

John Kerry, no affiliation to the presidency, has been meeting with foreign powers for 5 years, including important objectives like China, Iran and the EU.

Biden, not a president, is meeting with the EU and conducting negotiations.

Again, mentally retarded, completely dishonest, you choose.

I think neither, he just channels CNN.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:33 am

for trump to preemptively pardon himself or his kids while holding the position that he and they have done nothing wrong would be for him to take the position that he doesnt have faith in the judicial system in the US, the country of which he is the president.

pedro, when u cant even read a post about a guy because u r afraid it might say something bad about him then u r brainwashed and a follower
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:41 am

karpel, what issue is ever actually clear-clear? im of the opinion that i stated above. i think its reasonable. there are historic examples of people being pardoned for crimes they didn't commit. ok. that's not whats interesting about this to me. in the context of current events where a president is considering pardoning himself for crimes of which he has yet to be charged, i think that my point stands about how it would either signal a sense of guilt on his part for something, or a lack of faith in the justice system of the country of which he is the president. that he is the president matters here.

an interesting angle to some of this is that if he were to pardon someone in a blanket way, that for them to testify about any crimes pardoned would thereby not incriminate them and its been argued that this would remove their ability to plead the 5th, given that the statements would not incriminate them. so hes having to figure that out now. if he pardons his kids, then they can be compelled to testify in some case, in some context where they would be unable to plead the 5th which could expose others to criminal liability. if they refuse to testify upon being compelled to do so at the very least they could be held in contempt.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:16 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:karpel, what issue is ever actually clear-clear?

Lot's of issues are clear. But here's the disingenous thing. You acted like it was clear. Not like, well, it's not fully clear but here's my opinion. You mocked the people who disagreed with you.

im of the opinion that i stated above. i think its reasonable. there are historic examples of people being pardoned for crimes they didn't commit. ok. that's not whats interesting about this to me. in the context of current events where a president is considering pardoning himself for crimes of which he has yet to be charged, i think that my point stands about how it would either signal a sense of guilt on his part for something, or a lack of faith in the justice system of the country of which he is the president.
Notice the concession right it in there. You present an alternative conclusion: that he lacks the faith in the justice system. You add 'of the country he is the president in'. First off, he has certainly argued since appearing as a candidate that there are systematic problems in the US. So, it would not be strange if that's what he believed on this issue also.

B UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUt.....even more important. That's not THE context of the thread. The context was pardons in general, iow any offered by his administration, including to others. So, it's not just the self-pardon that is the context. That is if we read PK's posts.

an interesting angle to some of this is that if he were to pardon someone in a blanket way, that for them to testify about any crimes pardoned would thereby not incriminate them and its been argued that this would remove their ability to plead the 5th, given that the statements would not incriminate them. so hes having to figure that out now. if he pardons his kids, then they can be compelled to testify in some case, in some context where they would be unable to plead the 5th which could expose others to criminal liability. if they refuse to testify upon being compelled to do so at the very least they could be held in contempt.
Yes, I read that issue and that's an interesting one. I read when PK wrote about that. And there certainly could be some great ironies in that. But that's a different issue. One relevent to this thread, but not having to do with the issue I wrote about.

You're sliding all over the place.

I'll take it as an implicit concession. The issue isn't clear clear. And you have an opinion. It's my opinion it would be better if people, including your opposition, managed to present their opinions as opinions, without mocking people who have different opinions about not clear clear issues, and managed to concede that they might not be correct when strong evidence arrived showing that to be the case.

It's not big stuff.

Or everyone can enjoy being sure sure, when they aren't, and avoiding conceding anything.

That oughta lead to good results.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:58 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:pedro, when u cant even read a post about a guy because u r afraid it might say something bad about him then u r brainwashed and a follower


I dont read your whole posts because I dont have that kind of time to waste. I skim through.

I didnt have to even skim throuvh these last two to know you didnt address the glaring contradiction I pointed out.

Dealing thith the actually brainwashed takes a toll on the psyche.

A lot of people here are stubborn and have a hard time thinking they might be wrong. But you are the real deal washed in the blood of the lamb.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:00 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:pedro, when u cant even read a post about a guy because u r afraid it might say something bad about him then u r brainwashed and a follower


I dont read your whole posts because I dont have that kind of time to waste. I skim through.

I didnt have to even skim throuvh these last two to know you didnt address the glaring contradiction I pointed out.

Dealing thith the actually brainwashed takes a toll on the psyche.

A lot of people here are stubborn and have a hard time thinking they might be wrong. But you are the real deal washed in the blood of the lamb.



Like if CNN was one of those mushrooms that invades ant brains and you were the ant. They are in total control.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Mr Reasonable » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:28 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:pedro, when u cant even read a post about a guy because u r afraid it might say something bad about him then u r brainwashed and a follower


I dont read your whole posts because I dont have that kind of time to waste. I skim through.

I didnt have to even skim throuvh these last two to know you didnt address the glaring contradiction I pointed out.

Dealing thith the actually brainwashed takes a toll on the psyche.

A lot of people here are stubborn and have a hard time thinking they might be wrong. But you are the real deal washed in the blood of the lamb.



i do not believe for one second that you do not have plenty of free time and i have no idea what it means to be washed in lambs blood that just seems weird also toughen up your mind this shouldnt be hard on your psyche
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:27 am

So I asked PK and Mr. Reasonable to weigh in given the information I had found. Mr. Reasonable came and responded. PK came in to say he was busy last weekend, but then has avoided the thread otherwise. He was talking about the importance of context in his space, time thread, so I took the issue there since it is an example of the importance of context, for example the context of what he quote from Burdick. No response there, none here.
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Re: Remember kids, a pardon is an admission of guilt...

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:55 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:So I asked PK and Mr. Reasonable to weigh in given the information I had found. Mr. Reasonable came and responded. PK came in to say he was busy last weekend, but then has avoided the thread otherwise. He was talking about the importance of context in his space, time thread, so I took the issue there since it is an example of the importance of context, for example the context of what he quote from Burdick. No response there, none here.

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