Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

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Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Yes.
11
92%
No.
1
8%
 
Total votes : 12

Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Arminius » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:16 am

Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Uccisore » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:34 am

I was about to click 'yes', but the upside-down quotation marks made me uncertain.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:42 am

"Religion" is a very loose, complex and wide term.
Like any such type of term, we need to support and justify its use with a conceptual framework and taxonomy.

IMO, amongst the many, one of the most effective presentation of 'what is religion' is from Ninian Smart, i.e.
http://www.mmiweb.org.uk/hull/site/site/pot_sessions/smart_dimensions.html

From Amazon

There are seven dimensions that Smart uses to define the characteristics of [what is ] a religion:
I. The Practical / Ritual Dimension
II. The Experiential / Emotional Dimension
III. The Narrative / Mythic Dimension
IV. The Doctrinal / Philosophical Dimension
V. The Ethical / Legal Dimension
VI. The Social / Institutional Dimension
VII. The Material Dimension


To qualify as a religion, ALL the above dimensions must be present.
Note 'God' is not mentioned because 'Religions' has to include Buddhism, Jainism as religions which are without God.

1. In addition, one has to take into account the size of the followers or members to differentiate the type of religion or cults.

2. However, what Smart missed out is the 'essence of religion' i.e. the substance that is related to the emotional and experience dimension.

3. The other aspects of religion that need to be considered is its main neural correlates.

4. The various relevant philosophies related to 'religion'.

5. Personal experiences directly or indirectly related to religious experiences

The point is once we get a good grasp of the various dimensions and the other 1-5 points we should be able to understand what is a religion within a conceptual framework and its taxonomy.
It is also critical for one to read everything (or at least almost everything) there is no know about the mainstream religions.

I am not religious in the sense that I do not subscribe to any religious organization (VI) and any other dimensions listed above of any specific religious organization.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Arminius » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:42 pm

According to Peter Sloterdijk religion is exercise, training.
Last edited by Arminius on Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby James S Saint » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:10 pm

I voted "yes" for myself and "no" for most other people. 8)
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby MagsJ » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:16 pm

I voted yes... though what religion initially was has changed over time.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Arminius » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:45 pm

James S Saint wrote:I voted "yes" for myself and "no" for most other people. 8)

Well done, James. :wink:
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:29 pm

I voted yes in the sense that there are mine, yours and theirs.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Arminius » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:50 pm

MagsJ wrote:I voted yes... though what religion initially was has changed over time.

Anthropologically said: the exercise has changed over time.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:28 pm

A religion is the effort to Retain the legion or simply maintain a reasonably cohesive and coordinated society. People must have a reason/purpose for what they do else not be inspired to do it, resulting in impotence, conflict, and eventual extinction. Realize that long before people could read or write any language, the methods for trying to get people to be inspired and/or cooperate were already well known and formulated. Through time, more complex varieties came about. In different parts of the world with different gene pools, different methods took hold easier and provided stronger societies. The religions and cultures of today are merely remnants of thousands of years of refining formulas for societal bonding and defense.

Some of the strategies are literally over 10,000 years old, each having to compete with others in real life over many generations. Evolution has had its hand in the formation of worshiped "wholly spirits" as well as "demons" and "devils". The practices that are maintained are designed from thousands of years of trials and experience.

But the hue of the society, the people of that region, alter which religious practice brings the better result for that race and environment. Those doing the designing of these things don't seem to recognize that simple fact (especially not the exceedingly presumptuous atheists).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Arminius » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:42 pm

Religions are misunderstood spiritual exercise systems.

What do you think about that?
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:43 pm

Arminius wrote:Religions are misunderstood spiritual exercise systems.

What do you think about that?

Pretty obviously true. 8)
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Arminius » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:57 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:Religions are misunderstood spiritual exercise systems.

What do you think about that?

Pretty obviously true. 8)

Would you mind telling me why you think so? :)
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:04 am

Arminius wrote:Would you mind telling me why you think so? :)

???

Why I think that they are misunderstood? Or why I think they are "spiritual exercise"?
They both seem pretty obvious to me.

To exercise means to expel the weakness/dissonance/division/demon, or to strengthen and purify to be more whole and solid. Religious practices concerning both rituals and attitudes/ethics condition one's spirit into a more instinctive response. The intent is that the particular conditioned responses makes for a stronger society. Different conditioning is required by different races and genders.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Moreno » Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:10 am

Arminius wrote:Religions are misunderstood spiritual exercise systems.

What do you think about that?
Does this mean that if a believer thinks a religion or his or her religion is actually a set of beliefs and some moral precepts they are wrong?

Anyway, in the West there has been a strong move away, in the Abrahamic religions from religion as a set of practices to develop the self to something more based on morals and beliefs. Beliefs as ends.

That said I don't think one can separate beliefs and practices from each other, even if some religions seem to suggest one can or should or will after some stage is reached.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby felix dakat » Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:41 am

...that is, I know what I mean by it. I was once in an anti-religious religious group. As a religious person, it was a bit disconcerting. Now I'm spiritual. That cleared everything up.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:23 pm

Religion is like a college degree as compared to a doctorate in spirituality.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:29 am

Ierrellus wrote:Religion is like a college degree as compared to a doctorate in spirituality.
Agree totally.
The point is some religions at their best are limited to the highest grade school level.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:43 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Religion is like a college degree as compared to a doctorate in spirituality.
Agree totally.
The point is some religions at their best are limited to the highest grade school level.

The concern is that the people are also. And that is why those religions work so well with those people. You can send people to "higher education" schools in order to attempt to learn a different religion (such as physics). But you cannot cause them to be more than they are. And they are not physicists, educated or not.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:15 am

James S Saint wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Religion is like a college degree as compared to a doctorate in spirituality.
Agree totally.
The point is some religions at their best are limited to the highest grade school level.

The concern is that the people are also. And that is why those religions work so well with those people. You can send people to "higher education" schools in order to attempt to learn a different religion (such as physics). But you cannot cause them to be more than they are. And they are not physicists, educated or not.
I agree with the above.

However, the relevant point is those limited religions [which are VERY efficient at present] are rigid and fixed based on immutable doctrines. Note infallible humans cannot edit or change the words of God, that would be blasphemous.
In addition, the thousands of evil laden verses fixed and immutable will be a net-liability to humanity in the future.
The above refer to the Abrahamic religions [AR], i.e. Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The other point, fact is humans are dynamic, evolving and progressing with time.

Therefore when the ARs become a net-liability to humanity, they should be replaced with generic foolproof spiritual methods to deal with the inherent and unavoidable existential dilemma.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:59 pm

The question in my mind is will the current religions evolve? Apparently, they will not without further divisions and bloodshed.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:31 am

Ierrellus wrote:The question in my mind is will the current religions evolve? Apparently, they will not without further divisions and bloodshed.
The current religions will evolve [adapt] and morph into further divisions. Bloodshed is very likely to occur within Islam.

IMO, the only path forward for religions is they and the majority will all eventually evolve towards a generic positive spirituality. This is leveraged on the glaring trend of the exponential expansion of knowledge [neurosciences, genomes, and others] and technology with inputs from philosophy. However as with human nature and the principle of the Bell Curve, there will be pockets [very small percentile] of people who has to rely on religions.

However, I see a problem with the Abrahamic religions which rely on an infallible God whose delivered holy texts cannot be edited, revised nor changed by fallible humans. Since it is impossible for God to exists and reappear to change his holy texts, it would be impossible for the Abrahamic holy texts [which originally is very primal and primitive based] to be changed and thus that limit their evolution.
Thus the solution in the future [not practical now] 75-100 years from now, it would be wise to wean off the Abrahamic religions gradually.

In contrast note the Kalama Sutra;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta

Note the flexibility of Buddhism from the Dalai Lama
All the world's major religions, with their emphasis on love, compassion, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness can and do promote inner values. But the reality of the world today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether.

My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.

-Dalai Lama

Eventually organized Buddhism will also give way to generic spirituality in dealing with the fundamental unavoidable existential dilemma.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby phyllo » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:24 am

The 'flexibility of Buddhism' produced the backwardness of Tibet.

Every country with Buddhism has been scientifically, technologically and intellectually stagnant.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:34 am

phyllo wrote:The 'flexibility of Buddhism' produced the backwardness of Tibet.

Every country with Buddhism has been scientifically, technologically and intellectually stagnant.
I agree to a certain extent there is no significant expansion of science and technology in Buddhist dominant countries but not intellectually in the spiritual perspective. Buddhism [besides the practical] has the highest level of intellectual philosophy and logic which is higher than any Western Philosophy [except Kant]. These sources came from India, China, probably [Kashmir, Afghanistan, Nepal, Tibet, etc.] and even Indonesia (Sumatra)

Btw, it is not Buddhism's main purpose to promote Science and Technology. The plus point is, Buddhism whilst do not promote, it also do not hinder Science and technology. On the other hand, the Abrahamic religions do specifically limit/hinder Science and Technology. This is why we have Creationism to counter Evolution, the counter against cloning, stem cell research, etc.

Whilst there are advancements in Science and Technology in the Christian and Islamic communities in some eras of history, this is not directly due to the religions themselves, but rather due to the inherent progressive elements of human nature and being human. This is why there is no consistency in the progress of Science and Technologies within Christian and Islamic communities around the world.

Buddhism [and others Eastern religions] meanwhile has great potential in their dynamism to complete spirituality with modern Scientific knowledge and technology. Here is how one famous Scientist see Buddhism,
The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism. (Albert Einstein)

Eventually I see Buddhism evolving to be a type of generic spirituality and combining with other positive spirituality to be a universal spirituality without being a specific religion. I don't agree with any of the Eastern Religions as organized religions. There are full of scandals and evils committed religious monks and those in authorities who abused their position. At most they should merely maintain an organization to maintain and sustain their teachings for a relevant period of time.

I note you like throw in counters merely for countering sake, but they all lack the necessary depth. I think you get a greater payoff if you take my points optimistically and research into them in details, in greater depth and verify them yourself.
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Re: Do you really know what „religion“ is and/or means?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:49 am

Prismatic567 wrote:the ARs become a net-liability to humanity, they should be replaced with generic foolproof spiritual methods to deal with the inherent and unavoidable existential dilemma.

Don't you think that you should know what that is before you sell the farm?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

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