God is an Impossibility

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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:59 am

WendyDarling wrote:Crap...off topic.
Yes, it is Crap, not off topic, but way off in countering the OP.

Btw, are you aware of the Normal Curve aka Bell Curve.

Image

The main principle of the Bell Curve is for large populations like 7+ billion humans, human variables [as evidenced] are Normally [natural] Distributed as within the elementary principles of the Bell Curve.

Thus for each variable considered there is the mean, average and opposites on the extremes of both sides of the Curve.
For example take "intelligence," of all humans, what we have is 66% average, 30 above and below average intelligence and at the extreme we have 1% of highly intelligent people and at the other extreme 1% of very stupid people.
Yes, the 1% of highly intelligence people deviated extremely from the mean, but to label them 'deviant' in a pejorative and derogatory is immorally wrong in this particular context. It is the same for labeling the very stupid as deviant.

So when we take human sexuality into consideration, by the principles of the Bell Curve, there will be naturally a percentile [say 5%] whose sexuality will deviate from the mean or average. Since it is natural, it is immorally wrong to label them as 'deviant' with a pejorative and derogatory attitude.

Take human height, there will be a percentile of people [adults] with a range of average height but at the extreme we have 1% who are below 3 feet and 1% above 7 feet.

It is the same for the political spectrum, there will be the majority average and those at both ends of the extreme.

To merely call out the liberal for condemnation is very philosophical immature. What we have are the small % of extremes from the 'Right' and 'Left.'

Btw, I am neither left nor right. I don't agree with such specific dualistic labels.

What to say about God? God is more real, more possible than a liberal. :evilfun:
Where are your proofs?
This is a philosohical forum and it thus not proper simply to make such unsupported assertions.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Silhouette » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:13 am

P1: God must be a divine being.
P2: Anything less than a divine being is not God.

Humans are unable to "entirely" conceive of the divine.
Therefore: anything of which a human may conceive is necessarily less than divine.
Therefore: anything of which a human may conceive is not God.

If God may not be conceived by a human, then humans are unable to conceive of God.
Therefore anything conceived by a human "as God" is not "God".

QED: God does not exist to humans.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby James S Saint » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:22 am

Silhouette wrote:P1: God must be a divine being.
P2: Anything less than a divine being is not God.

Humans are unable to "entirely" conceive of the divine.
Therefore: anything of which a human may conceive is necessarily less than divine.
Therefore: anything of which a human may conceive is not God.

If God may not be conceived by a human, then humans are unable to conceive of God.
Therefore anything conceived by a human "as God" is not "God".

QED: God does not exist to humans.

At least a well stated argument.

But it is commonly accepted that man cannot truly conceive of the actual God. It is accepted that God cannot be conceived of by man, and that is a part of what God, God.

But even still, the conceivablity of God is merely one of many characteristics attributed to God, not a definitive attribute.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby James S Saint » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:25 am

Prismatic567 wrote:Btw, are you aware of the Normal Curve aka Bell Curve.

Image

The main principle of the Bell Curve is for large populations like 7+ billion humans, human variables [as evidenced] are Normally [natural] Distributed as within the elementary principles of the Bell Curve.

Thus for each variable considered there is the mean, average and opposites on the extremes of both sides of the Curve....

And btw, the Bell curve truly fits almost nothing concerning people.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby surreptitious75 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:47 am

Silhouette wrote:
Humans are unable to entirely conceive of the divine
Therefore: anything of which a human may conceive is necessarily less than divine
Therefore: anything of which a human may conceive is not God

If God may not be conceived by a human then humans are unable to conceive of God
Therefore anything conceived by a human as God is not God

Could God not just reveal himself to humans without them having to first conceive of him
And then would that revelation not be how they would conceive of him from that point on
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:04 am

Silhouette wrote:P1: God must be a divine being.
P2: Anything less than a divine being is not God.

Humans are unable to "entirely" conceive of the divine.
Therefore: anything of which a human may conceive is necessarily less than divine.
Therefore: anything of which a human may conceive is not God.

If God may not be conceived by a human, then humans are unable to conceive of God.
Therefore anything conceived by a human "as God" is not "God".

QED: God does not exist to humans.

"P1: God must be a divine being."
What do you mean by "divine"?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/divine

"Humans are unable to "entirely" conceive of the divine."
Note St. Anselm's Ontological God, i.e.
"God is a being than which not greater can be conceived"
Therefore God can be entirely be conceived as claimed by St. Anselm.

There are many perspectives where God can be claimed to exists, e.g. moral, reasoning [primal], psychological, madness, etc. However in all these perspective there is no solid grounds for God to exists as real within an empirical-rational reality.

Thus it is critical to qualify God is an impossibility within the default empirical-rational reality.

To me, it obvious God is an impossibility to be real within empirical-rational reality because I am well aware the illusory God is idealized via desperate psychological existential impulses to deal with an existential crisis. This point is supported by Eastern non-theistic spiritualities.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:14 am

James S Saint wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Btw, are you aware of the Normal Curve aka Bell Curve.

Image

The main principle of the Bell Curve is for large populations like 7+ billion humans, human variables [as evidenced] are Normally [natural] Distributed as within the elementary principles of the Bell Curve.

Thus for each variable considered there is the mean, average and opposites on the extremes of both sides of the Curve....

And btw, the Bell curve truly fits almost nothing concerning people.
Why don't you do an experiment. Measure the height of a randomly picked 1 million people, and present the data on a graph and it will represented like [of course not 100% like the theoretical model] the standard Bell Curve.
If you can get access to the IQ ratings of a large number of people generally [without deliberate bias] it will conform to the Bell Curve with very small percentile at both extremes, i.e. very stupid and very intelligent people with the majority as the average within 1-2 SD.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:07 pm

Okay Prismatic, show me how you use your infamous bell curve to display human behaviors such as sexuality. Would the most abnormal low end, natural/normal in your book, extreme be sexing up multiple corpses simultaneously? The most abnormal high end, natural/normal in your book, extreme be sexing multiple babies simultaneously?

The illness of liberalism is to think that every behavior is equally natural...normal when there are examples of appalling behaviors done by rather distinct minorities and by being in those minorities it becomes apparent that their sexual behaviors are unnatural, abnormal, perverse, sick compared to the majority of consenting, heterosexual adults.
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I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby James S Saint » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:36 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Okay Prismatic, show me how you use your infamous bell curve to display human behaviors such as sexuality.

He would do it the same way he does everything else; presumption, speculation, and condemnation.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25976
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Silhouette » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:52 pm

James S Saint wrote:But it is commonly accepted that man cannot truly conceive of the actual God. It is accepted that God cannot be conceived of by man, and that is a part of what God, God.

Yes, are you saying this not covered within the argument? Seeing as He would only appear at the very maximum to be part of God, and so the whole of that which would be appearing would always necessarily be less than God, thus to Man, that which would be appearing would necessarily not suffice to be God and therefore not be God. It could claim to be God, "but you just aren't able to see it", but anything that wasn't God could claim to be more than it was and be tricking Man. As an unfalsifiable claim, it would fail to be rational to take the being by its word - and further, even if one did "have faith" of "the rest", "the rest" as necessarily inconceivable to Man would be not be able to be anything to Man, and thus to Man be "nothing". Therefore one's faith would indeed be in nothing - that there was an unseen aspect to the being claiming to be God would thereby not be a faith, as a faith in <blank> cannot be a faith. So my argument is not only a logical proof of the non-existence of God, but also a logical proof that a belief in God is in fact the ultimate Nihilism - as not just a grand statement but a necessary truth.

James S Saint wrote:But even still, the conceivablity of God is merely one of many characteristics attributed to God, not a definitive attribute.

Surely it is a necessary attribute?

And if a necessary attribute of something is impossible, then surely the whole of that thing is impossible? At the very least it must be redefined, and in line with my Premise 2, I don't think anything less than divine could ever really cut it as an acceptable definition of God. It would not be divine but mundane - just another aspect of the natural universe that we already have words for.

Prismatic567 wrote:"P1: God must be a divine being."
What do you mean by "divine"?

I think the meaning of "divine" in my argument is implied within the argument - it is that which is necessarily beyond the conception of Man. The divine is such that "Humans are unable to "entirely" conceive of the divine." It is supposed to be something more than the mundane, of which Man can by definition at least potentially be able to conceive all aspects. All aspects of divinity by definition would surely not be conceivable else it wouldn't be beyond the mundane, it is supposed to at least in part be "beyond" the mundane in order to be "divine".

As such, I think it unreasonable to define God as St. Anselm did. "Than which not greater can be conceived", despite being impressively great of course, would still be mundane to Man as it would be entirely accessible in terms of conception and just be part of the normal natural world, which as I have said above, "we already have words for" that do not have any connotations with the supernatural and that which is outside of humanity's faculties to grasp. A being "than which not greater can be conceived" would just be everything i.e. the universe. Anything unnecessary "beyond" the universe would not be within the set "everything" and therefore be "nothing". The universe as it is, naturally existing, is at least in theory fully accessible such that it would be entirely conceivable (but we just haven't done it yet), and this is distinct from something that by definition would necessarily not be even potentially entirely conceivable, because at least some element of it would have to be necessarily beyond Man in order for it to be "divine".

surreptitious75 wrote:Could God not just reveal himself to humans without them having to first conceive of him
And then would that revelation not be how they would conceive of him from that point on

As covered by the argument, such a revelation would indeed be "how they would conceive of him from that point on", but such a conception would lack divinity (and therefore not suffice as God in the minds of humans) because it would not include anything that was beyond man, and therefore not be divine, and therefore not be indicative of God. In order for God to show himself as God to humans, He would have to show an element of Himself to Man that is not possible to show to Man because it would be by definition beyond Man. This is logically impossible, so for all we could possibly know (as I explained earlier in this post), any revelation of "part" of God could be anything ungodly claiming to be God. And the entirety of what we did see of the revelation would be not be God to us anyway. To humans, as the title of this thread says, "God is an impossibility".
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Arminius » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:28 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
Silhouette wrote:P1: God must be a divine being.
P2: Anything less than a divine being is not God.

Humans are unable to "entirely" conceive of the divine.
Therefore: anything of which a human may conceive is necessarily less than divine.
Therefore: anything of which a human may conceive is not God.

If God may not be conceived by a human, then humans are unable to conceive of God.
Therefore anything conceived by a human "as God" is not "God".

QED: God does not exist to humans.

"P1: God must be a divine being."
What do you mean by "divine"?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/divine

"Humans are unable to "entirely" conceive of the divine."
Note St. Anselm's Ontological God, i.e.
"God is a being than which not greater can be conceived"
Therefore God can be entirely be conceived as claimed by St. Anselm.

There are many perspectives where God can be claimed to exists, e.g. moral, reasoning [primal], psychological, madness, etc. However in all these perspective there is no solid grounds for God to exists as real within an empirical-rational reality.

Thus it is critical to qualify God is an impossibility within the default empirical-rational reality.

To me, it obvious God is an impossibility to be real within empirical-rational reality ....

To YOU! And this means that it is your own, your subjectie opinion, belief, religion, theology/theorie - but not more. Objectively said, you are wrong. Your logical conclusions are false. And already many people have said that to you.

Why are you so stubborn?

Image

Prismatic567 wrote:... because I am well aware the illusory God is idealized via desperate psychological existential impulses to deal with an existential crisis. This point is supported by Eastern non-theistic spiritualities.

Your subjective opinion may be supported as much as you want it to be: it does not matter, because you have no argument, you have no proof, you have no evidence, you have nothing except your subjective statement based upon a logical fallacy.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby James S Saint » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:38 pm

Silhouette wrote:
James S Saint wrote:But it is commonly accepted that man cannot truly conceive of the actual God. It is accepted that God cannot be conceived of by man, and that is a part of what God, God.

Yes, are you saying this not covered within the argument? Seeing as He would only appear at the very maximum to be part of God, and so the whole of that which would be appearing would always necessarily be less than God, thus to Man, that which would be appearing would necessarily not suffice to be God and therefore not be God.

No. You are conflating an appearance of, with a reality of. One can define a "God" and have a general sense of a conception, even though one cannot precisely conceive of it. A simple example would be an object with 1433 sides. One can define it. One could even build it. But no one is going to actually envision or conceive of it.

"God" has a definition, although many enjoy arguing over it. But as it is defined, the human mind cannot actually conceive of it. And also as it is properly defined, it is absurd to claim that it does not exist (but that's another story).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25976
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby iambiguous » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:51 pm

Prismatic567 wrote: All truths = means ALL regardless of
"how things work" or otherwise.
Thus to assess the "truthfulness" of any conclusion we must assess the reliability of the elements and basis of the specific Framework.
For example, it is obvious scientific truths has high objectivity and credibility because of its Framework [with its assumption] and openness to verification, repeatable testing by anyone and producing consistent conclusion subject to its framework.


But the "scientific Framework" is no less embedded in all that one would need to know in order to close David Hume's gap between "correlation" and "cause and effect". And how exactly would any particular mere mortal go about either falsifying or verifying the very ontological nature of Existence itself?!

Indeed, this is clearly a reason why folks invent Gods. And, with God, there is that crucial teleological component as well.

But, from my frame of mind, it's all "in their head". At least until they can demonstrate otherwise.

And that's important to note because I am not arguing that it can't be done, only that no one has succeeded of late in convincing me that we don't live in an essentially absurd and meaningless world that culminates in oblivion.

Prismatic567 wrote: I have proven when such a reasoned God is cornered it will end up as an absolutely perfect God which is an impossibility within an empirical-rational reality.


From my frame of mind all you have proven is that if others accept your premises/assumptions/definitions/meaning regarding the existence of God then they accept your conclusions.

But you are no closer to actually demonstrating that God does not exist than they are in demonstrating that He does. It just seems more reasonable that the burden of proof lies with those who claim that something does exist.

Instead, what I see over and and over again on threads like this are the irresistible force intellectual contraptions smashing headlong into the immovable object intellectual contraptions.

And then -- gasp! -- no one budging an inch.

As though the part about theodicy and immortality and salvation and divine justice were just incidental.

Prismatic567 wrote: I have stated the actual grounds and basis for the emergence of a God is due to psychological reason driven by an existential crisis. The problem is most theists are ignorant of this and rather would be driven to look outside themselves as they have been relying for psychological security from external parents, so by habits and customs, an external God [Hume's constant conjunction].


By and large I agree. But only in the sense that I recognize my own frame of mind [here and now] as just one more existential contraption. I would never argue that I have actually proven anything.

All claims of proof here [relating to questions this consequential] are seen by me as psychological contraptions.

It's just that the "scientific framework" seems considerably more rigorous in demonstrating what it is rational to believe in the either/or world.

Prismatic567 wrote: DNA wise, the drive for morality is inherent in all humans.


Yes, we are hard wired biologically as a species to exist. And that means to subsist. And that means acquiring food and water and shelter. And reproducing. And defending ourselves against enemies. Morality thus is just the recognition that in interacting over time [historically] and space [culturally] to sustain all of this, our wants and needs will sometimes collide. Rules of behavior must be established.

But whose rules? Based on what assumptions? Enforced by what actual power?

Well, if God exists then His rules. His assumptions. His power.

Prismatic567 wrote: Since there is an inherent drive for Morality & Ethics within humans, the non-religious are improving and making progress on Morality naturally to cope with change.
The drive for Morality & Ethics are represented by real neurons and its relevant neural circuits within the brain. There is no way immutable holy verses can stop its progress.


This is just one more self-delusion to me: No God but human beings can still make moral progress.

Says who? Based on what assumptions? Assumptions that are not instead just conflicting sets of political prejudices.

For the secular Humanists [liberal or conservative or individualist or collectivist] what constitutes moral progress regarding issues like abortion or gun control or social justice or the role of government? How are the conflicting goods dissolved?

Even slavery can be rationalized. Hell, even genocide has been.

And, for the sociopath, morality revolves entirely around self-interest. Or, for any number of nihilists [those who own and operate the global economy], it revolves around "show me the money".

Prismatic567 wrote: The Eastern non-theistic religions [e.g. Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, etc] are already resolving that same existential crisis without any evil baggage, so it is possible to wean off theism in the future or ASAP.


Here [and now] I don't agree.

With respect to conflicting value judgments, "Eastern non-theistic" religions just reconfigure human interactions into another set of assumptions.

In my view this part...

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

...is no less applicable to them.

Unless someone who subscribes to an Eastern philosophy would be willing to explore this with me pertaining to a particular context in which values do come into conflict.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby iambiguous » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:22 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
Me, I draw the line between those things that we think we know and those things we are able to demonstrate that all rational men and men are obligated to know in turn. Something is true objectively to the extent that we can determine that it is true for all of us.


Natural/known by all rational men and women...heterosexuality is normal (90% of the population), homosexuality is abnormal (10% of the population), beastiality is more abnormal (8% of the population), pedophilia is even more abnormal (3% of the population), transexualism is even more abnormal (1% of the population).


Right, like abnormal behaviors are any less natural. If the human species is a part of nature then anything human beings are actually able to do is natural.

Relating to this thread, it is normal to believe in God. I just read that less than 20% of the world's population are atheists. But since human beings are able to believe what they do one way or another there is nothing unnatural about it either way.

It's just that some behaviors are then judged by one or another objectivist clique/claque as immoral. Why? Because they are said to be at odds with what the objectivists construe to be natural.

And yet as I noted on another thread, homosexuality exists in many species of animal. So it's natural for them too. On the other hand, they aren't judged by one of their own as behaving immorally.

In part because they don't have access to...memes?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Silhouette » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:35 pm

James S Saint wrote:No. You are conflating an appearance of, with a reality of.

Yeah that's why I said "to Man, that which would be appearing would necessarily not suffice to be God and therefore not be God." I'm only intending to talk about appearance - hence my conclusion "God does not exist to humans". Whether or not the reality is one way or another is irrelevant to Man, because their only access to it is through appearance and logic. And even applying logic to appearance, we necessarily cannot access God as he has to be defined in order to be God.

We can conceive and envision an object with 3 sides, 4 sides and so on to a point depending on how good we are at doing that - conceivably we could be better than we are even up to the point of 1433 and potentially even beyond, but no matter how good we got at trying to conceive of God, divinity is by definition supposed to be beyond our conception no matter how good it is. 1433-sided shapes and the like are still mundane things even if they are complex - you see the difference?

James S Saint wrote:"God" has a definition, although many enjoy arguing over it. But as it is defined, the human mind cannot actually conceive of it. And also as it is properly defined, it is absurd to claim that it does not exist (but that's another story).

In the sense that Santa exists because we can talk about him, describe him and what he does, and he even has an affect on the world despite not having corporeal form, you might argue that God exists for the same reasons. However, you can define something that has internal contradictions, talk about it, describe it and what it does in illogical terms, and it could even have an affect on the world. Because of internal contradictions, we can know for sure by logic that it doesn't actually exist, despite its existent definition and affects. In the same way you can define something that by logic cannot be conceivable to humans, it can have an affect on the world etc., but we can know for sure by logic that it doesn't actually exist to us: it's necessarily a non-issue to us, no matter how hard we could try and evolve, it would still necessarily be that way. That is the nature of God's non-existence.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Arminius » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:02 pm

For comparison:

Related to the global population, the number of the unaffiliated decreases and will further on decrease, whereas the number of the muslims increase and will further on increase.

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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:12 am

iambiguous wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:
Me, I draw the line between those things that we think we know and those things we are able to demonstrate that all rational men and men are obligated to know in turn. Something is true objectively to the extent that we can determine that it is true for all of us.


Natural/known by all rational men and women...heterosexuality is normal (90% of the population), homosexuality is abnormal (10% of the population), beastiality is more abnormal (8% of the population), pedophilia is even more abnormal (3% of the population), transexualism is even more abnormal (1% of the population).


Right, like abnormal behaviors are any less natural. If the human species is a part of nature then anything human beings are actually able to do is natural.

Relating to this thread, it is normal to believe in God. I just read that less than 20% of the world's population are atheists. But since human beings are able to believe what they do one way or another there is nothing unnatural about it either way.

It's just that some behaviors are then judged by one or another objectivist clique/claque as immoral. Why? Because they are said to be at odds with what the objectivists construe to be natural.

And yet as I noted on another thread, homosexuality exists in many species of animal. So it's natural for them too. On the other hand, they aren't judged by one of their own as behaving immorally.

In part because they don't have access to...memes?


The natural that is also the rational, is the ability to be able to differentiate between normal and abnormal and from there delineate moral from immoral actions which liberals cannot fathom since to them all actions, behaviors, are natural/rational...and normal.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Arminius » Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:21 am

Magic word: "EQUALity"!

Thus: No quality !
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:12 am

WendyDarling wrote:Okay Prismatic, show me how you use your infamous bell curve to display human behaviors such as sexuality. Would the most abnormal low end, natural/normal in your book, extreme be sexing up multiple corpses simultaneously? The most abnormal high end, natural/normal in your book, extreme be sexing multiple babies simultaneously?
There are many aspect of sexuality, i.e. being sexual.
To use the Bell Curve we need to state the specific criteria to be used.

Say we refer to sexuality in reference to those between living human beings. As observed within animals and humans there are various sexual behaviors, i.e. the various degrees of heterosexuality, bisexuality, homosexuality. Based various evidences [small samples] and applying the model of the Bell Curve we can predict there will be a percentile of homosexuals of various degrees at one extreme of the curve.
From the smaller samples we can estimate this to about say 10%. i.e. appx 0.7 billion of humans are homosexuals. [Note these are not actual numbers but appx.] What is critical is the differences in ratios.

Interpretation:
What is interesting is, even if say Iran claim there are no [or concede it 0.1%] homosexuals in their country, base on the Bell Curve we can the likelihood is 10% of Iranian are homosexuals, albeit they may not declare themselves to be.

Based the Bell Curve we can predict there are 10% or 0.7 billion of homosexuals within humanity. This 10% is not a threat to humanity in term of it main purpose i.e. producing the next generation. So I don't see homosexuality as a threat and a problem.
Theists view it as a threat purely based on emotional and psychological grounds, and an illusory God which is an impossibility in the first place.

We can use the Bell Curve to analyze sexuality in terms of various perversions. The critical issue is to question them morally and whether they are a threat to humanity's main 'purpose.

The illness of liberalism is to think that every behavior is equally natural...normal when there are examples of appalling behaviors done by rather distinct minorities and by being in those minorities it becomes apparent that their sexual behaviors are unnatural, abnormal, perverse, sick compared to the majority of consenting, heterosexual adults.
Note you cannot generalize "liberalism." Personally I am not into "liberalism" or any political faction.
Note every human behavior is naturally human. The question is whether are they moral or not and whether they are a threat to humanity.
Relatively more people are killed and violated by theists than by homosexuals.
Why theists condemn homosexuals is purely due to the dogma within immutable holy texts which is grounded on an illusory God.
I don't see homosexuality as a problem but those sexual acts we recognized in general as perversion, e.g. bestiality, torture, and the likes should not be condoned.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:17 am

iambiguous wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote: All truths = means ALL regardless of
"how things work" or otherwise.
Thus to assess the "truthfulness" of any conclusion we must assess the reliability of the elements and basis of the specific Framework.
For example, it is obvious scientific truths has high objectivity and credibility because of its Framework [with its assumption] and openness to verification, repeatable testing by anyone and producing consistent conclusion subject to its framework.


But the "scientific Framework" is no less embedded in all that one would need to know in order to close David Hume's gap between "correlation" and "cause and effect". And how exactly would any particular mere mortal go about either falsifying or verifying the very ontological nature of Existence itself?!

Indeed, this is clearly a reason why folks invent Gods. And, with God, there is that crucial teleological component as well.

But, from my frame of mind, it's all "in their head". At least until they can demonstrate otherwise.

And that's important to note because I am not arguing that it can't be done, only that no one has succeeded of late in convincing me that we don't live in an essentially absurd and meaningless world that culminates in oblivion.
Ontology of 'Existence'.
Note Kant prove 'ontology' is not a possibility.
In addition Kant also demonstrated 'existence' is not a predicate.
Existence has to be accompanied by a qualification, i.e. exist as what?
e.g. God exists asserts nothing of substance at all.
It is that "what" that need to be justified within an empirical-rational reality.

Prismatic567 wrote: I have proven when such a reasoned God is cornered it will end up as an absolutely perfect God which is an impossibility within an empirical-rational reality.


From my frame of mind all you have proven is that if others accept your premises/assumptions/definitions/meaning regarding the existence of God then they accept your conclusions.

But you are no closer to actually demonstrating that God does not exist than they are in demonstrating that He does. It just seems more reasonable that the burden of proof lies with those who claim that something does exist.

Instead, what I see over and and over again on threads like this are the irresistible force intellectual contraptions smashing headlong into the immovable object intellectual contraptions.

And then -- gasp! -- no one budging an inch.

As though the part about theodicy and immortality and salvation and divine justice were just incidental.
Btw, the only ultimate basis a theist can claim God exists is via faith, very strong faith. How can you use the basis of faith as an irresistible force of intellectual contraption?

I have proven God is an Impossibility in accordance to some credible framework and at the same time demonstrate why theists believe in a God is due psychological grounds driven by an existential crisis [see below]. There are lots of research done in this area and the focus should be in this area rather than banging on an a God which is proven to be illusory.

Prismatic567 wrote: I have stated the actual grounds and basis for the emergence of a God is due to psychological reason driven by an existential crisis. The problem is most theists are ignorant of this and rather would be driven to look outside themselves as they have been relying for psychological security from external parents, so by habits and customs, an external God [Hume's constant conjunction].


By and large I agree. But only in the sense that I recognize my own frame of mind [here and now] as just one more existential contraption. I would never argue that I have actually proven anything.

All claims of proof here [relating to questions this consequential] are seen by me as psychological contraptions.

It's just that the "scientific framework" seems considerably more rigorous in demonstrating what it is rational to believe in the either/or world.
If you recognized the psychological contraption then you should focus on the issue psychologically.
So you need to question, why am I so fixated on a God which is illusory from the psychological basis.
Note the non-theistic spiritualities [e.g. Buddhism] recognize the inherent existential crisis from the psychological perspective and dealt with its associated problem psychologically and spiritually.
All human beings are infected with the inherent existential crisis, theists cling to an illusory God, non-theistic spiritualities deal with it psychologically, many non-theists resort to drugs and opioids to deal with the associated psychological pains.

Prismatic567 wrote:DNA wise, the drive for morality is inherent in all humans.

Yes, we are hard wired biologically as a species to exist. And that means to subsist. And that means acquiring food and water and shelter. And reproducing. And defending ourselves against enemies. Morality thus is just the recognition that in interacting over time [historically] and space [culturally] to sustain all of this, our wants and needs will sometimes collide. Rules of behavior must be established.

But whose rules? Based on what assumptions? Enforced by what actual power?

Well, if God exists then His rules. His assumptions. His power.
At present where did all the Nations get the rules and agree to ban all slavery when slavery is not absolutely banned by God in the holy books?

As I had stated, the drive [power] for morality is inherent in all humans and humans are progressing steadily toward higher Moral Intelligence [MQ].
What humanity need is to expedite the Framework and System of Morality & Ethics [like what Kant* proposed] and expedite on the process. Then humanity will established [via continuous improvement] shared "absolute" moral rules for guidance [not enforcement].
* not the rigid deontic rules as misinterpreted by most].

Prismatic567 wrote: Since there is an inherent drive for Morality & Ethics within humans, the non-religious are improving and making progress on Morality naturally to cope with change.
The drive for Morality & Ethics are represented by real neurons and its relevant neural circuits within the brain. There is no way immutable holy verses can stop its progress.


This is just one more self-delusion to me: No God but human beings can still make moral progress.

Says who? Based on what assumptions? Assumptions that are not instead just conflicting sets of political prejudices.

For the secular Humanists [liberal or conservative or individualist or collectivist] what constitutes moral progress regarding issues like abortion or gun control or social justice or the role of government? How are the conflicting goods dissolved?

Even slavery can be rationalized. Hell, even genocide has been.

And, for the sociopath, morality revolves entirely around self-interest. Or, for any number of nihilists [those who own and operate the global economy], it revolves around "show me the money".
You are conflating the Law [legislature] and what is being practiced [judiciary].

At present the banning of slavery is accepted as a standard Law in all countries without compromise. Show me a country where the laws on slavery state and allow slavery [normally defined] to be practiced with compromise?
However there will be people who practice slavery illegally and try to justify in various ways.
Because the law on the banning of slavery is 'absolute' the law will eventually catch up with the guilty when the average Moral Intelligence is increased expeditiously.
So the task for humanity is to increase the average Moral Intelligence expeditiously.

Prismatic567 wrote: The Eastern non-theistic religions [e.g. Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, etc] are already resolving that same existential crisis without any evil baggage, so it is possible to wean off theism in the future or ASAP.


Here [and now] I don't agree.

With respect to conflicting value judgments, "Eastern non-theistic" religions just reconfigure human interactions into another set of assumptions.

In my view this part...

If I am always of the opinion that
1] my own values are rooted in dasein and
2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction.
Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.


...is no less applicable to them.

Unless someone who subscribes to an Eastern philosophy would be willing to explore this with me pertaining to a particular context in which values do come into conflict.
I am not too sure of your point re Dasein and "I".

My point is the non-theistic spiritualities of the East recognized there is an existential crisis that led theists to believe in an illusory God and that belief is due to psychological factors.
So they focus on the real human psychological factors rather than on an illusory God to modulate the same existential crisis.

The non-theistic spiritualities of the East also noted a belief in a God lead to immutable holy books containing evil laden elements that inspire their evil prone theists to commit terrible terrors, violence and evils on non-believers and others.
So the non-theistic spiritualities of the East ensure their guidance and texts do not include any evil laden elements that will inspire their evil prone believers to commit evils in the name of the religion or founder.

You will note my proof of 'God is an Impossibility' intends to link to the terrible terrors, violence and the full range of evils committed by evil prone believers who are inspired by the evil laden elements in the immutable holy books of theists who believe their God is real with the strongest possibility.

Now my proof 'God is an Impossibility' will cut off the grounds of theism and thus no more grounds for theists to commit the terrible evils.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:27 am

WendyDarling wrote:The natural that is also the rational, is the ability to be able to differentiate between normal and abnormal and from there delineate moral from immoral actions which liberals cannot fathom since to them all actions, behaviors, are natural/rational...and normal.
It would appear [advise if otherwise] what is natural and rational to you is based on what God in the immutable book said so?
God killed all homosexuals with rain of stones, so homosexuality must be unnatural, irrational and evil, thus abnormal and immoral.

Personally I do not agree with homosexuality especially same sex marriage, but rationally it should be tolerated as it posed no danger to the main purpose of the human species in contrast to theism [especially Islam] which has the potential to exterminate the human species.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:25 pm

WendyDarling wrote:The natural that is also the rational, is the ability to be able to differentiate between normal and abnormal and from there delineate moral from immoral actions which liberals cannot fathom since to them all actions, behaviors, are natural/rational...and normal.


Start here: https://youtu.be/oYdcvRe7ox8

Homosexuality seems quite natural throughout much of the animal kingdom.

Sure, if you start with the assumption that the one and the only rational sexual behavior is between a man and a woman in order to reproduce, you can then self-righteously connect the dots to an objectivist/conservative political agenda that argues, "therefore faggotry is evil ".

And, indeed, you can insist that "epistemologically" there is only one politically correct manner in which to distinguish "normal" from "natural" behavior: the way that you do.

But, again, just as it pertains to a belief in God, my interest here revolves more around the extent to which your own political narrative reflects a rigorous intellectual investigation into homosexuality more or less than it reflects the actual sequence of experiences/relationships in your lived life that predisposed you to embrace one rather than another set of prejudices.

Me, I was raised in the belly of the working class beast. If I had a dollar for every time I used the word "faggot" as a kid, I'd be swimming in Benjamins.

That's simply how these things work. Folks go in many different political directions here because their lives go in many different directions.

And while there are any number of pro and con arguments to be made regarding such questions as, "is sexual orientation determined at birth?" -- https://borngay.procon.org/view.resourc ... eID=000005 -- that's the part where conflicting goods come into existence. And in any particular historical and cultural context. The part about genes and the part about memes.

But to try to reduce the enormous complexity of human sexual interactions throughout history down to "reproduction" is nothing short of preposterous.

And I'll bet you know that from your own life. Or are you swimming in offspring?

Sex is often extremely pleasurable, children or no children. It is a way to reinforce emotional bonds as well. And it is clearly embedded in the evolution of political economy among our own species.

But, sure, if you can demonstrate to us that your own value judgment here is not just an "existential contraption" rooted in the life that you lived, by all means, give it a shot.

Though I suspect that, as with all objectivists of your ilk, what counts here [psychologically] is less who is right and more that right and wrong itself can be determined. And this must be true because you already have.

Same with God. For many, the thing they can tolerate least is the idea that we are simply unable to determine [here and now] if a God, the God does in fact exist. So, it becomes either "God!" or "No God!".

After all, how else are they going to be able to make that crucial distinction between "one of us" and "one of them"?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Arminius » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:51 pm

Fact is that there are several cultures. In certain cultures it is not allowed to be homosexual, in ceratin other cultures it is allowed to be homosexual.

So, if you are saying that homosexuality is somehow "unnatural" or "abnormal", then you are in conflict with those certain cultures in which homsexuality is allowed.
So, if you are saying that homosexuality is somehow "natural" or "normal", then you are in conflict with those certain cultures in which homsexuality is not allowed.

Currently, there is merely one culture in which homosexuality is not allowed. I am speaking of the so-called "islamic" culture (Prismatic's enemy? :-k ).
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:07 pm

Arminius wrote:Magic word: "EQUALity"!

Thus: No quality !


Was there a *deliberate* reason for putting *ity* in lower case or was it just random?

Are you actually perceiving that there is no quality within equality?
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: God is an Impossibility

Postby Arminius » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:46 pm

It was meant as a tendency. If, for example, A equals B, then there is no quantitative difference between them, so: A = B then. I believe that in real life equality has the tendency to make also a qualitative difference indifferent, thus equal, so that there is at last a qualitative indifference. In other words: if you have no quantitative difference, then you have to expect that you will - sooner or later - have no qualitative difference either.
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