Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the gu

Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners with his sacrifice/suicide on the cross. IOW, Christians see Jesus as asking Christians to abdicate their responsibility for their own sins and punishments.

If humans asked that, it would be considered quite immoral and unjust. All courts try hard to punish the guilty and not the innocent.

These quotes are what I think Jesus would have taught on this issue, him being a Jewish Rabbi.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments, yet Christians are doing just that in trying to use Jesus as their scapegoat.

Regards
DL

“Our father who art in heaven”

Nobody wants to be in hell. There’s a hell for every possible being.

But heaven when even a single being in existence is having their consent violated!?! Psychopathic.

This god is a psychopath. I’m an empath who’s actually been to real hell. Not all of them, and the worst ones, not for very long… well that’s hard to explain… as far as real hell is concerned you never want to get cocky!

I’m an empath. Heaven is psychopathic. An empath cannot understand heaven when even one being in all of existence is suffering. Am I perfect? I get better each day. I am more perfect than other beings though. Other beings being people trying to get to heaven and trying to stay there forever while someone is suffering. Do I want hell for myself? No. Do I want heaven that ignores someone suffering? No.

I just plug along doing my thing.

Point being: the “Lord’s Prayer” is immoral.

And yet the Hebrew Bible also contains this tradition of which the Christian doctrine of the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ would seem to be an anti-type.

Exodus 20:5
King James Version
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Leviticus 16:21
King James Version
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

It is quite a thing to substitute a goat with presumably God himself.

This is something I really don’t like about Christianity. I think that humans should feel accountable for their misdeeds, I do not like the idea at all of a metaphysical redeemer.
Nor do I like the idea of a god or even a decent man being sacrificed for the worst of humans.

That jealous god thing is interesing by the way -
Jealousy is the vice of Binah, the sephira of Elohim (“Bereshit Bara Elohim” - in the beginning, God(s) created…)
and whose virtue is Silence.

Fixed Cross,

I’m going to be blunt with you. If you want to own all your shit… you’ll be sent to hell for trillions of years… just shut the fuck up and listen. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

Someone’s on the booze again…

This sounds rude to me.
Fixed has tried to contribute to the forums for a long time.
He doesn’t need someone saying “Shut the fuck up and listen.”
He shared a post. That’s all. No need to go loopy.

Fixed doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

If fixed owned all his “own karma” he’d be sent to hell for trillions of years.

He has no idea what he’s saying by trying to sound like a tough independent man. He’s not that tough, nobody is.

I will lay into people who talk shit about things they don’t understand. If the moderators in this board don’t understand it… I’ll still say it. Hell is not a joke. I try in my best way to startle people into being awake .

All praying is, in a sense, as it usually means the prayer wants an advantage over others. Think of a soldier praying that his bullet finds the enemy and the enemy’s bullet does not reach you.

Regards
DL

Yes. Let nature decide if the goat dies or not, and party on while eating the other in the Jewish cleansing of the tribe tradition. Every nation should cleanse itself and forgive each other so that the polarization that is killing the U.S. does not happen.

Do you see Exodus 20:5 as moral and ethical?

My mistakes are mine and not my children’s, even as they might suffer for my actions by association.

To have a god impose hardship on the innocent is immoral. Right?

Here is moral thinking and decent justice.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Regards
DL

Especially a god who apparently cannot die.

A sacrifice that does not die or stay dead is not a sacrifice at all.

Christians don’t seem to know how silly and immoral their thinking is.

More of them are recognizing that though and the shrinking god religions are the result.

We are getting smarter but too slowly for my taste.

Regards
DL

Hell is a fiction, unless you think the WORD of god lies when Yahweh says that it is his will that none of us be lost.

A universalist god has no need for a hell as he always get’s his way, and his way is to save us all.

You must think god quite the loser.

Here is an old question you might like to answer.

Can Yahweh always do what he wills, or can people thwart him?

Scriptures seem conflicted on the answer.

They show an all-powerful god whose plan and will cannot be thwarted or derailed, while at the same time indicating that he cannot do his will and that people can derail his plan to save everyone.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do you have faith?

If you do, you cannot believe in hell. You would not think god a loser by believing he saves us all, as his will indicates. Those scriptures say he has no need of a hell for us.

Do you see god as too incompetent to do his will of saving us all?

Or do you see god as a universalist god who does his will and saves us all?

Regards
DL

No. Punishing the children for the sins of the father seems patently unethical. Nonetheless, there it is in the text regarded as holy scripture by Judaism and Christianity.

So what shall we make of it? Why was it written in the first place?

What does it say about the deity of the Hebrews? Do Deuteronomy 24:16 and Ezekiel 18:20 show that God evolved morally?

Or were those texts written later as a corrective to an earlier conception of God?

These and many more related questions about the matter have been pondered for centuries by talmudic, biblical and historical scholars who have posited numerous hypotheses and theories.

Applying Occam’s razor it is certainly simpler to suppose that the Hebraic conception of God and morality evolved rather than God himself. Elohim and Yahweh were gods of two traditions which merged as the texts were redacted over the centuries.

The moral conception of God was revised according to the visions of the prophets. What began as a vision of a tribal God evolved into the God of the universe.

Christianity influenced by platonic thought came to see God as synonymous with the Platonic Good–the summum bonum. But that meant did God could no longer do evil hence the need for a devil-- Satan.

Thus, the conception of God evolved and continues to evolve.

…continuum…this is close. The textual references are evolving.

The layers of proceeding metaphor will eventually connect , so that a meaningful transition may be understood in terms of intervening interpretations, erasing any forms of confluctual meanings.

The question is, are the original texts indicate any intentional foreshadowing of this to come?

Not to Christian and Muslim idol worshipers.

“No. Punishing the children for the sins of the father seems patently unethical. Nonetheless, there it is in the text regarded as holy scripture by Judaism and Christianity.”

I agree with your first. I do not know what your last refers to as I showed the opposite.

What are you seeing?

Regards
DL

I doubt it, as the bible, FMPOV, was created just for talking points and issues to argue over.

That is why Gnostic Christians wrote their myth, to put against the Christian myth.

That is why it has so many contradictions. I E. Jesus says at one point, we must love our parents, and at another, he says we are to hate them.

Few intelligent thinking people will believe in the supernatural.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, “The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it.”

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, “God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning.”

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia … =PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

The golden rule is not profound. It’s archaic from a simple people that lived thousands of years ago.

Now we know there are masochists, on a vast scale.

I’ll give a slightly better one:

Don’t do to yourself and others what you or they don’t want done to yourself or themselves.

Slightly better right!

Actually, this rule brings us much closer to a higher state of consciousness than the “golden” rule.

It allows us to think about ourselves and others in a completely different way… it points to ascension.

Jesus’ parables are more to the pont, as exampling the process of interpretation , however any mystical inception has an elemental effect. They are not mutually and determinantly exclusive in the process of integration .

But I get the point made.

Yes, you showed the opposite. So the opposites are both there in the Old Testament text. How shall we interpret that?

I prefer how modern social moralists phrase it.

They begin with Harm/Care before going to the reciprocity rule.

That does what you want and is a neater phrasing. That means that it even suits the S & M. or any perversion you can name.

That method of thought is kin to Socratic thinking. He thought we should be like dogs. Check out the strangers vibes before biting or licking.

Regards
DL