Brave Christian Worship

All the ego’s failure to atone their suspected sins of inventions which may be counter productive, can be understood as rightful deconstruction, ahead of it’s time, that only a very wise mystic like Jesus may have equated with the need for redemption.

Even if it may have been an effort to turn things as they have been, without any ‘mystical’ connotations.

May be Christ was not as simple as all that.

Phelix, dude, what is this argument about billions of people considering the man a hero? Is your standard system an ochlocracy?

What have the christians accomplished besides turning the world into a big pig-sty?

I really dont see much heroics in Jesus at all, Jordan Peterson notwithstanding.

On Jordan Peterson, what is this guy, a psychologist who pretends to give advice on psychological well being but who nearly died from a chain of antidepressants and medications to cure himself of his addiction to these antidepressants? Total fraud.

Fuck Jesus.

I mean he’s cool and all but he’s no goddamn prophet for this world.

I read that it was benzodiazepines not antidepressants. You might be wrong about some or all of the rest of this stuff too. Regardless, I don’t attack the gods you hold sacred.

Same thing dude. Peterson was on a slew of things, one to help him get off the other. He a drug addict son.
He’s great and all but not to be relied on for life advice - I’ve found that to be true earlier in other cases. He’s great comparatively in terms of YouTube presence, but he’s not a hero, in my book. Not no more. Of course he would say this.

On Christians, they took over the world, have been the most violent religion ever seen on the face of the Earth, invented international slave trade and have led us to what we are now as a civilization. Its not appropriate to complain about jabs to a prophet who says he’s son of God, a very boastful fellow, after he has ruled on an Imperial scale for some 1700 years, and has taken a toll of hundreds of millions of lives. Such a figure isn’t immaculate.

Even though hardcore christians, Old Testament tabernacle fire and brimstone types please me in their refusal to comply with politicians, they’re really Hebrew-ites, aren’t they? Jesus doesn’t figure as much in their spirit as he does in the compliant, more refined ones.

In any case. As Ive expressed quite often I have admiration for Jesus the man, but his time is over, his work is done. Cant hang the fate of the whole universe on this one dudes neck. He’s done whatever it is he had to do - now the LORD has taken other shapes, or wants to.

Odin is rising. He was dead, as prophecized, now he is returned, as prophecized. Odinism is a cyclical religion.

Mary… again, a hell of a cult and a hell of a woman. I love her. But she too has reigned for many centuries and has changed. These humans that carry the image of God for a while, they’re still just humans at the end of the day.

In the olden days, Jesus gave men insurmountable courage, an eagerness to live and die for their cause - now, christians are very passive and have cosmopolitan wants and fears. It’s just evolution, and it fits in the great scheme of the Ages. Jesus ruled the age of Pisces, now we enter Aquarius, the age of Horus as it has been called by Crowley - Jung saw Wotan re-appearing, annoyed from a bad sleep.

In any case, a Wargod. Mercy isn’t pure in complete lack of resistance. Mercy needs the strong arm of God to make any sense at all.

Man shares unconvincing vision of Christ, weeps on on camera like a little bitch, and somehow expects others to be so moved by this shoddy performance that they repent their “sins”… This is considered “brave” by most “Christians”…

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAql-vsXS2U[/youtube]

Lol

Have you read Gore Vidals “Julian”? Not directly related to this confessionary style, but interesting in the sense of the tastes of the early christians.

But what accounts for the splendid aspects of Christian Europe - the nation of France most notably? France being the first nation founded as a Catholic stronghold.

I am drawn to the idea that your vision of the cross as Eros has to do with it. It must be something like that.

I read somewhere a warning given by someone to an early Christian, to the extent of you do not know the meaning of this sign (of the cross), it is far more ancient than you think.

Is there an implicit power to the sign of the cross that we do not utilize at this point?

I haven’t, I’ll check it out.

I dunno… Maybe Catholicism being the most “pagan” Christian denomination… see also BGE 48 ( nietzsche.holtof.com/reader/frie … 4b63a.html )… and also:

-“Nietzsche: Attempt at a Mythology”

Well the cross was a pagan symbol originally. I also read somewhere that the early Christians didn’t even use the cross. I think it’s symbolic nature is similar to Christianity in the sense of a dying, self sacrificing god expect in the pagan sense it’s a sign of the eternal return and not a promise for an afterlife permanently cut off from this life of suffering. A further distinction I think needs to be made between a fixed cross and a swastika ( a cross in motion ) in terms of their pagan meaning. I once had a very peaceful dream where I saw a swastika and a really large silver chain laying flat on the ground next to each other.

I would be interesting to print out thousands of copies of TSZ to freely distribute on the street… But on the cover put nothing but a cross or swastika then watch as mass confusion ensues.

It’s occurred to me, also due to reading Crowleys Opus Lutetianum [ hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib415 ] in combination with my own occult studies that the true gospel, or even the body of Christianity is not the Bible, but the history of Christianity. This evidently is not a new thought, but it is an interesting and fertile one. The gospels themselves are, for me, destitute of value, or were when I last tried to get trough them - but in the history of the Christian world value is superabundant. It is of course the history of the Greek-Roman world, with the added magic of the Hebrew world and a lot of “barbaric” influences added into the mix - it is the history of Roman Europe. But it is more than that, it is the body of stories that relate to the Holy Grail, and the whole ethos of a path. Not path in the sense of Tao, where one simply goes where the water flows, so to speak, but in a more dramatic, cathartic sense, a path with with many crises, a jagged, rocky path. Im coming to terms with Christianity on a level that is beyond the gospels and the dogmas, perhaps this is a sign of the second coming of the Christ which had been announced - a christianity perhaps devoid of the meekness that is so abhorrent to me - a christianity which, coming back to the point I was about to make, combines the christ with the devil. This is the discovery that I made- I dont know if you are familiar with the tree of life, but in it, the path that leads from Mercury up to the Sun is the Devil, connected astrologically the Capricorn, the Goat, relating to Saturn, the old devil of myth - and in the linked work, Crowley discovers that the Christ is not so much related to the Sun, as he is to Mercury. Reads the book for elucidation, it is too magistral to paraphrase, as is usual for Crowleys work.

So my conclusion, in a simplified phrase, is that christ and the devil are one. As a path, that is - or I might rephrase - Christianity derives its meaning, its substance, its spirit, from the constant encounter with the devil. You will no doubt recognize this idea somewhat in the gargoyles that adorn the outside of cathedrals and the general blend of sublime and horror that marks the artistic and narrative efforts of christianity.

What say you?

Another interesting, clean symbolic dream. The most evident interpretation is one of the Sun and Moon in harmony, the swastika being the ancient sun symbol, one of the most ancient extant symbols of earthly life, and silver representing the moon. Naturally the manifestation of a chain is interesting - in qabalah the chain is attributed to the Sephira of Mars, Severity, and indeed the pillar of severity is the feminine one, corresponding with the Ida nadi in yoga, where the Sun relates to the masculine, Pingala nadi.

I sincerely doubt that more than one in a hundred passer-by’s would be able to digest the first sentence.
I am currently rereading Zarathustra, in my grandfathers first edition, printed in gothic German letters, which is a significantly different experience.

Trying to extract some thoughts on esoteric reading of the book from Sauwelios. I’m coming around to the value of esoteric reading. Perhaps even Sokrates will yield some value for me in the future.

Perhaps because these are questions that I had to face and answer, when young.

Perhaps I was expecting more, much more, from a discussion board, in these regards… that is my burden, alone.

I guess that’s what Catholic School does to ya…

I can understand that. I had no formal religious teaching when I was young and grew up convinced it was all just bad. It was a series of coincidences that made me curious, because the Bible was described in a pamphlet I read as a literary source that contained the wisdom of the people who carried it. I read the Bible as a literary source, entertained the possibility that it could be history but found that to be irrelevant, discovered the depth of Hebrew (via a friend who is a philologist), and recently discovered the symbolism that is contained therein.

I also had deep conversations with Pastors and Priests of various denominations who had a long experience of counselling, especially in the context of my job with dying elderly patients. We agreed that the raw texts themselves are open to a variety of interpretations, some gentle, some aggressive, some thoughtful and some militant. It is the lessons that we derive from them that are important, in particular with Old Testament texts, and how we live as a result of them.

I also found a contemplative reading, as well as finding comparisons helpful, but also understanding mythology better. Of course, it is a dated source, which you have to take into account, and we all know that conserved narratives get old. You only have to read Grimm’s fairy tales to notice that. I also read a feminist book on the role of mothers as storytellers, how our stories shape us for life, but also how stories evolve with communities, if they are to remain pertinent and alive.

In a way, I’m saying that the “narrow-minded” approach to the subject of religion is just that. Iain McGilchrist demonstrates in his books a tendency of people since about 250 years to neglect the “broad-minded” attention of the right hemisphere for the more narrow and focused attention of the left hemisphere. Consequently, we have less time for the broader view, for understanding the depth and complexity of a subject, and more for the question of whether I can utilise (consume, use, eat) it. I’m sure you have heard young people told to focus, pay attention etc. although it wasn’t a case of them not paying attention in broader sense, but only in the narrower sense.

That is why we have difficulties on Discussion Forums, with a lot of narrow-minded people disturbing the exchange of the broader minded, with lots of staccato, clipped, and disjointed comments. Fundamentalism is an example of such narrow-mindedness, which attacks the broad-mindedness of comparative theology or perennialism, psychology and experiential knowledge. It can be hoped that the broader minded can remain disciplined and continue their enquiry.

It’s interesting to hear your perspective, in once thinking that anything to do with religion was all bad… religion is about codes of conduct to live by, though it is also used for war and other antagonisms… as we are all aware of, I’m sure. Anything can become corrupted over time.

The Old Testament showed the old way… mainly of not what to do, the New Testament, of what to do… so a more helpful manual than its predecessor. lol

I know how Many feel about priests… and the church in general, but most priests are decent and guide its Patrons through an obstacle-filled life, by the path of least resistance.

Indeed so… there are versions of the Bible for children, then we are weaned onto the ‘hard stuff’ in our teens, but by then we have already seen the 3-hour long Hollywood-blockbuster version of the entire story of the Old Testament and been traumatised by it.

I think religion is just another string, to add to one’s bow…

It is that indeed, but it is also a source of peace, getting away from the humdrum, putting aside of the nitty-gritty, and emptying oneself of all concerns, laying it at the “feet” of (whatever we conceive to be) God, and surrendering for a while to the peace of the moment. It is long walks in nature as much as celebration of the mystery, it is silence and solitude as much as it is parish life. The problem is, I think, that we have lost balance in our lives.

I like that. Knowing what not to do is as important as knowing what to do. The priests I came to know helped me like that, but ours was a mixed experience. One of them was the Priest in the Catholic care home I was working at, and he had a stroke, fell into a coma, and when he awoke, he was paralysed. He was transported to my ward and on seeing him on the stretcher, I had the inspiration that we could get him up and out of bed with time. I spoke to him quietly on arrival and asked him if he still had faith, and faith in our ability to get him walking again and he nodded, still unable to talk. We then arranged for his care meticulously and progressively, arranged for logotherapy, physiotherapy, and did what we could during washing and clothing to train his hands, repeating movements, and he worked with us. It took six months, but he was able to stand, and to speak a little, and after nine months, he was walking with a walking frame on his own and taking part in Mass. He called me into the huge celebration of his 60th year (!) of service and told everyone present that I, the protestant nurse, had restored him and his faith. It was my staff as much as it was me, but I put it down to acting in faith.

Yes, it is unfortunate that in any parish children can be shocked by confrontation with the wrong parts of the Bible. I am wary of the evangelical assumption that “anyone” can read the Bible and the superstitious use of Bible verses. For me it is a narrative made up of numerous single stories, and people must be carefully led, learning to avoid the pitfalls, and to differentiate between the lesson of inspiration between the lines and the human components of words and letters.

Yes, and I am sure that it is different in each of us. We are all influenced by our experience of life and our personalities, some of which we can’t easily change. That is why I read in the Gospel that personal faith is a chamber in which we can retire, closing the door, and encountering the mystery of life, come to peace. That is different for all of us, but there are guidelines that help us attain a modicum of meditation and contemplation.

God bless you.

Thank you, but I forgot to explain how it was a “mixed experience.”

A second priest came to us after hearing about our success in treating the first one and said he wanted “the same treatment”. I pointed out to him that his was a different disease, Parkinson’s was a degenerative disease where we could at best slow the symptoms a little, but not cure them, not even to a degree. He waved it off, and we began his care. It became difficult to even slow down the symptoms, because the man had a drinking problem, and the wine bottles we removed from his room filled a container by themselves. He also refused to do the exercises that the physiotherapists instructed him to do, and consequently, despite my attempts to persuade him, his condition worsened faster than was necessary and he died.

I went to his funeral and listened to the bishop, who had previously congratulated me on the success with the first priest, speak about the suffering of the second priest “in the hands of unsatisfactory care workers”, who had supposedly “tormented” him with attempts to get him out of his bed or chair. This was a slap in the face, which people around me at the funeral sensed, and some apologised. I left, quite disillusioned, and didn’t tell my staff. The town Pastor then came and apologised. So as you see, it wasn’t all sunny days.

Ah, the humanity.

Not surprising. Good on you for keeping it from your staff.

I am fascinated by the research that McGilchrist has done, and once again he has me impressed with his knowledge of a subject. I can’t wait to get into the next book but have to finish this one first.

He is quite right that Luther, without actually wanting to, let a big problem start from his attempt to promote authenticity in the church. When I joined a protestant church, I was quite ignorant about what I was getting myself into and the information I was receiving about the Bible was interesting. I still didn’t buy the literalism, but I overlooked it after finding a theologian who had said that Bible stories are like sight-seeing buses, get in and go along for the show (my transliteration). I did that for a while and learned to tell the stories quite well, but I had a feeling that something was missing. It was when I started work for the Catholic Church, and experienced their theologians, who presented spirituality as something different. For one thing, an ethics teacher of mine was a lady theologian and sex therapist. But their sense of the sacred was quite different, and attached to moments, places, pictures, as well as the biblical word.

Looking into it, I was told that the sacred for protestants was God and his word, and God was everywhere. Attaching sacredness to objects, pictures, and places was idolatry. But I developed the idea (stolen obviously from other sources) of creating a SPOT (special place of tranquillity) and found I was making a sacred place, with candle, cushion, and book with verses, songs, prayers and pictures that meant something to me. Very suspicious. I then went through some agonising surgery, that wasn’t very serious but painful, and discovered the hospital chapel in the Catholic Hospital, complete with crucifix and several pictures of saints. Evangelical visitors became uneasy about my habit of going to chapel.

I was told in no uncertain terms, that my habits were becoming idolatrous, and so I stopped going to the evangelical meetings. Since then I have seen many paintings I revere, read many books by catholic authors (especially Thomas Merton), had deep conversations with catholic priests (who could actually understand my problem with the Pope), learnt centring prayer from a catholic priest, worked in a catholic setting, taken communion, and become frustrated with some catholic ruling, but found many friends, who have also guided me towards other traditions.

It seems to me that to command what another person should hold in reverence is blasphemous.

It is reverence itself which is sacred, as indeed existence is valuing and nothing besides.

On the other hand to offer a specific path for a congregation, to say ‘we shall not revere objects’ or ‘we shall revere these objects’ and to freely allow people to join and leave this congregation, is a sound way. A steady formula for reverence to be cultivated by many people over generations grows into a living spirit.

See https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=197807 for my further development …

An Opportunity for Transformation

Author and CAC teacher Brian McLaren has spent decades thinking about change in the church and why so many resist it. Here he summarizes what often happens to our religious institutions once they lose their original purpose:

The pattern is predictable. Founders are typically generous, visionary, bold, and creative, but the religions that ostensibly carry on their work often become the opposite: constricted, change-averse, nostalgic, fearful, obsessed with boundary maintenance, turf battles, and money. Instead of greeting the world with open arms as their founders did, their successors stand guard with clenched fists. Instead of empowering others as their founders did, they hoard power. Instead of defying tradition and unleashing moral imagination as their founders did, they impose tradition and refuse to think outside the lines. A religion that cuts itself off from the example of its founder while still bearing the founder’s name often becomes little more than a chaplaincy for other ideologies, offering its services to the highest bidder. No wonder so many religious folks today wear down, burn out, and opt out.

And no wonder more and more of us who are Christians by birth, by choice, or both find ourselves shaking our heads and asking, “What happened to Christianity? What happened to Jesus and his beautiful message?” [1]

Minister, entrepreneur, and author Cameron Trimble sees the decline of church structures as an opportunity to ask questions that matter, to rediscover and renew our faith:

What is church really about? I’ve always understood the church as being a community with a shared story in our scriptures, which binds us together. Church is about weaving relationships together so that life for all of us is more deeply rooted in Love. Today, I would offer that the church also offers a platform to work together to build a world that acts and advocates for the common good of all of us. We are warriors, lovers, peacemakers, protectors, prophets, thinkers, and dreamers who gather together to celebrate our heritage as children of God. At the same time, we are fearlessly willing to stand up and stand in for those our culture might oppress. When we live consciously aware of our power to shape our world for good, we live lives of meaning. We are our own most fully human and fully sacred expressions. We are whole. . . .

We have an opportunity in this moment of our great transformation. We can approach this time as survivors, desperately clinging to our structures and ways of being. Or, we can see ourselves as pioneers, setting out in the face of the unknown to discover new ways to live faith-filled lives. The inevitable decline of our structures gives us the chance to let go of what might hold us back from that adventure. Nothing today will be the same ten years from now. Why not architect the kind of faith movement we want to see twenty-to-fifty years from now? What do we have to lose? [2]

[1] Brian D. McLaren, The Great Spiritual Migration: How the World’s Largest Religion Is Seeking a Better Way to Be Christian (New York: Convergent, 2016), 5–6.
[2] Cameron Trimble, Piloting Church: Helping Your Congregation Take Flight (St. Louis, MO: Chalice Press, 2019), 132.

From Richard Rohr’s Daily Meditations (From the Center for Action and Contemplation) cac.org/