There is a heavily moderated philosophy board and one that is more flexible. I imagine the distinction is to serve two goals: one more traditional and one more casual. In order to be traditional you can’t invite foolish sarcasm and ridicule. The idea is then to create a difference in attitude.
You know that if you’re at a fine restaurant your attitude would be different than at a rock club. It is the same with exchanging on religious ideas. The intent and moderating of the board including creating interesting threads will set the tone.
All I mean by esoteric initially is the inner realization that we are not what we think we are and don’t understand it. How a person comes to this is the variety but the equality for people aware in this way is in our nothingness as opposed to self importance being the motivating factor of the external or secular approach.
This is the inevitable result of the secular motive. The esoteric approach isn’t concerned with who is right or wrong but just what is being experienced. This is what is shared.
Good. finally we put this “We are all one” assertions into perspective. Sharing differences rather than condemning them is how we learn. We all have a piece of the puzzle that fits together in a higher more cosmic perspective. Why argue over whose piece is bigger or prettier. All the pieces together mean something. From this perspective there is nothing to argue about. We need to acquire perspective. The arguments then can be enjoyed on the secular board concerning itself with the validity of each piece. Where the secular seeks to rationalize this into community, the esoteric seeks to allow the individual to transcend community not for its condemnation but to eventually create the esoteric understanding of “As above, so below.” This is why community would not be the primary issue on the esoteric board but simply who we are and how we understand each other as we currently reside and interact in Plato’s cave in the context of our potential. The word in a nutshell that allows for such progressive discussion is of course “humility.”
No. What kind of objective answer is possible for people in Plato’s cave? We may not be able to answer but we can learn how to question and be accepted for questioning with sincerity of a greater depth than what comes from shallow egotism. A person can only think as deeply as they feel. How then to help each other feel the question?
Yes, this is the trouble. Hopefully there are some that are gradually becoming disappointed with arguing. Can enough people be found in adition that are willing to sacrifice this sacred cow of self importance for the sake of one board? They really wouldn’t be sacrificing anything since they can make up for it on the secular board and really give em hell.
There is no need for a seperate division within the religion forum. Issues within the general concepts of religion include both spiritual as well as secular discussion, often inextricably tied together. As Pax pointed out, questions of who are we? and questions of how shall we live? are interdependant, and valid if sometimes contentious points of discussion. It isn’t about ‘arguing’ right or wrong, but different points of view that make themselves apparent in the religion forum.
Nick,
I invite you to look up the definition of reification. For all of your talk of Plato’s cave, the ‘corrupt ego’, the ‘great beast’, and ‘experts’ you seem to fail to see yourself in the mirror. A news flash: You aren’t the only person who has seen the illusions. That some have moved past it and are engaged in other issues seems to be lost on you. It’s true that several of us that post regularly in the religion forum have given up trying to get past your intellectualizing of spiritual understanding. Oh well. (shrug)
I would suggest that anyone who feels the need to discuss ‘esoteric’ christianity make their way to the chat room that has been re-opened. You can visit to your hearts content there without being interrupted by those of different perspectives. A thread inviting participation in the chat room, posted in the religion forum would allow all those uncomfortable with the religion forum a new place to be without creating yet another division within ILP at large.
Now you’ll get a good look at the situation and why the request for the separate board .
Do any of you lurkers enjoy a hot bath? If you do, you know that it requires hot water. Suppose I told you that this wasn’t fair and biased against cold water. To really appreciate a bath you need a healthy blend of hot and cold water and dwell in the comforts of a luke warm bath rather than the one sided appreciation of the hot bath.
This is precisely what is being asked for. The idea is to blend the esoteric (hot) with the secular (cold) to create a mixture (luke warm) that is meaningless for those in search of the experiential hot bath of reality.
Extreme self importance is precisely the opposite of the essential experience of ones nothingness spoken of in all the ancient traditions. They simply cannot be blended because the blended creation is impotent for understanding the hold of imagination described in these ancient traditions and in Plato’s cave allegory.
Tentative feels that the insights of Plato, Simone Weil, Meister Eckhart and the like are only significant enough to warrant a chat room.
This is supreme self importance. He hasn’t a clue as to the depth and importance of the ideas brought by such people. I do because I would probably be dead without them. It isn’t just esoteric Christianity but esoteric Buddhism and the Gita for example. The same ideas are in all. Yet to him, contemplating such ideas is only worthy of a chat room.
There is no respect for the humility inherent in the esoteric perspective. Self importance will not allow it. Just suggesting that one isn’t what they think they are brings the most harsh replies. Notice that the mere mention that he is victim to what I admit to which is being influenced by self deception natural for life in Plato’s cave is highly insulting and cannot be tolerated. How, in the presence of such negativity, can the attitude necessary to inspire openness and sincerity ever be established that invites the mutual appreciation of our nothingness?. It cannot. Yes it is hard and not for those that enjoy the pleasant effects of dream land. All you have to do is consider the effects of television and on people’s imaginations But if you seek the realities of life and the joys and meaning that come with it from the esoteric perspective of the quality of our own being, one must out grow la la land. Consider how Simone Weil puts it:
This is what a person faces when they realize they are living in Plato’s cave. Are we willing to experience the hard and rough for the sake of the experience of “meaning”? For most it is better with the normal pleasantries and arguments and luke warm water. It is easier to speak in platitudes of world peace and universal love than it is to experience and admit our lack so as to build from it. This is why the right atmosphere is necessary to share on our experiences of the ancient esoteric truths.
Jacob Needleman became sensitive to this need in children:
Prof. Needleman saw this sensitivity to ridicule in children but it is in all of us. Simone Weil is right in that it is hard to face but it can be done but can you see how important the atmosphere is in admitting the truth as opposed to celebrating a dream.
Yes, this is a religious hypothesis that we become open to validate through “Know Thyself”. it’s called the spiritual search. The basis of the Esoteric Religious board would be open to the hypothesis that we can be more than we think we are and it is through our own self deception that we deny ourselves of this understanding. The esoteric aspect of religion is to experience oneself as opposed to the exoteric or secular that mixes with politics for example. It cannot be communicated to others but our experiences with it can be shared. Again, it isn’t right or wrong, but sharing experience in the context of our vulnerability to self deception.
Notice how Tentative has moved past illusion and is now engaged in other issues. Its like he joined the Blues Brothers and is on a mission from God.
Yes they have given upon my intellectualizing about Plato’s cave or introducing Simone Weil and Meister Eckhart because they all suggest that man’s being is capable of more than he knows. It is this self importance that denies seeing it so it is condemned.
But still the esoteric traditions continue and as you can see, the attitudes on the board make meaningful exchange on the human condition impossible since they threaten self importance.
But as I said, my exposure to them has been very important for me and I am open to sharing on them and learning from other’s experiences with those interested but it requires its own board that respects their existence and the mutual need those sensitive to them have for them. It has to be done right or it is not worth doing.
No, this is what you face, after realising you live in Plato’s cave. Others to have come to see that the world around them as a mere façade and the light that flickers is just as unreliable as the shadows it cases. The cave walls are also so rough that it degrades the quality of the shadows being viewed. Because life can be tough some people like to view this world as a valley of tears. But not everybody would agree with that view. It comes down to how lucky or unlucky they might have been in their lives.
Why does this have to be hard and rough? Some people believe that if knowledge is not won at a price it has little value, as they invested very little to get it. Likewise some people invest a great deal to learn something that might only be trivial, but because this knowledge came at a high price they prize it more then an intellectual unbiased mind would.
When most people talk of such things its aspiration, they hope someday the world could be like this. There is no one at the moment who could create such a world, as to be able to create such a world would require enormous multitudes of people to change their views on live. The person would have to incredibly persuasive and would need to face up to the challenge of those who didn’t want such a world. Most people want money and power, it can be very difficult to a quire them under those conditions.
No this is just your way. I’m not being antagonistic here, just pointing out that everybody views these things differently. All you have to go on is your experiences of such things. I don’t agree with a lot of your opinions on esoteric, not because they are wrong as obviously they’re right from your experience on the world, but not mine. You talked about the ‘Rose Coloured Glass’, everybody wears them and while we hope that the rose tint mightn’t be as strong in our pair, we can never be sure just now much of what we believe is real and how much are the glasses.
To find a teaching that brings meaning to life is a wonderful gift. The problem is, if you want to share that gift you will have to learn to tolerate the ignorance of others. Everybody is coming to a discussion from their own point of view, there’s no to ways about it and we need to make allowances for it. While I agree, to be able to post in the knowledge that no one will ridicule your beliefs or views is a great idea, yet in practice its just not going to happen. The reason esoteric is esoteric is because only small numbers of people can come to agree on what they believe. Here’s an example:
My brother-in-law is involved in a cult which works out of Australia (but he and my sister + 5 children live in Ireland). Their leader has visions from God and The Blessed Virgin Mary is his Spouse, yes you read that right he’s married to Mary! He gets visions about once a month mostly about how evil the world is and that we must all pray for our souls and the souls of others. He’s also a great man for the Prophesy, to bad he never gets it right or is so vague that almost anything will fulfil it. Although one vision he got spot on, he is going to have 12 wives and 70 princesses. What a lucky man that god should favour him so much. The fact that one of the 70 princesses was only 15 didn’t bother him, such is his faith in the Lord. But unfortunately for him the meddling police think he’s some kind of sexual pervert and not a respectable man about the community. It’s amazing that the police could mix up somebody so holy with somebody so depraved??? It must be the devils work! Also did I forget to mention that my brother-in-law was made a Priest by this man???
While I’ve be very flippant about all this, it’s deadly serious. If people’s ideas go unchanged this is where it can all end up! My brother-in-law is adamant in his belief, everybody else things he is a lunatic. Who’s right? We could be mistaken and this so called prophet could be the real deal. He’s made enough people believe in him. Or are the only people he has converted to his world view those that already want to view the world in that way?
It’s through being changed that we can refine our beliefs and understand them clearer and more deeply. To paraphrase something Plato also wrote, “It’s those who show you your faults that you should consider your real friends, as they help you to improve.â€
This is the difference between the secular and esoteric approach. Secular deals with better or worse in the context of daily life. The esoteric deals with limiting effects of attachment on the inner man; a concept within all the great traditions. From this perspective the transient occurrences we define as lucky or unlucky are the same and equal in relation to our attachment and dependence on them. If one seeks the pearl of great price, it means not favoring one over the other through psychological dependence. If it is not a concern than it is best to stick with the transient secular and let your imagination create your own reality.
If you ever struggle against your dependence on pre-conditioned reactions in search of unconditioned experience, you’ll see the benefit of hard and rough on your natural inclination to imagine rather than openly experience. Again, it depends on ones aim. If the aim is for inner freedom, you have to inwardly and impartially verify what denies it. One only begins to learn how difficult it is and respect the ancient traditions other than in platitudes when one tries it.
Yes, all this belongs on the secular board. Those of us willing to admit we are denizens of Plato’s cave know it is impossible. This is why the first practical consideration is how to get an experience of life outside the cave which is the goal of the esoteric board
There is no problem tolerating ignorance simply because as I’ve said, those that understand our nothingness in comparison to potential are free to admit our ignorance. It is however useless and actually harmful to try and argue about this with people convinced of their own greatness. It creates unnecessary psychological blocks natural for defending such a threatening assertion. It’s not a matter of believing one thing oranother but the realization that beliefs mean nothing. What knowledge can a sleeping man have in the esoteric sense. So the agreement isn’t on a belief but simply that we are in Plato’s cave where beliefs are equal in their illusion.
All a teaching can initially bring if it is authentic is the opportunity to find the inner direction and the strength to become open to face self deception and to verify it. Putting new wine into old bottles is no good for the wine or the bottles.
There is nothing esoteric in the real sense in what you are describing. Relating objectively to the inner man requires consciousness and the retention of impartiality. We have neither so it is something we strive towards. The cults you describe are created through the manipulation of fear and egotism. Dependence and self esteem is created through directed imagination. Unconscious or imaginary partiality manifesting as self importance is exactly the opposite of attempts at conscious impartiality beginning with humility which is not fear based. The charlatan tells you how wonderful you are and the master says you are nothing. It is no wonder then that the esoteric view is a minority but the fact that it is a minority does not deny its worth or should be denied its rightful place in philosophy as described by Prof. Needleman.
So to really appreciate Plato’s quote that you posted, I believe you must know the different connotations of change. In pursuit of ontological verification it can only mean in the direction of the pearl of great price. Other change is transient and just turns in cycles lawful to nature’s way though it feels good going down as does good scotch.
To change in the esoteric traditions first means beginning to distinguish the real from the imaginary within oneself. This is where sharing becomes valuable since we all have the same struggle and it is foolish to argue one illusion over the other. All we can do is see it for what it is.
These two different aims of religious thought: the esoteric and secular are so different in their aims that they must be separate to retain any value. Theoretically it is not true but all the distortion that exists within both makes it a practical necessity.
When you meet someone better than yourself, turn your thoughts to becoming his equal. When you meet someone not as good as you are, look within and examine your own self.
Yes, this is the purpose of the esoteric Religion board contrasted with the secular religion board. Where the secular is concerned with past and future manifesting as ideals of world peace, universal love and the like in condemnation of others who are skeptical of their actualization, the esoteric concerns itself with the quality of “now” and how we experience it in relation to human inner esoteric potential as our quality of human “being.” The realization of the nature of human “being” as in our own “being” will come into conflict with our wishful thinking.
It is the esoteric religious board that will allow and encourage such impartial inner revelation through sincere sharing rather than the normal selectivity, ridicule, and condemnation normal for idealism and secular right and wrong.
Again, I’m not asking anyone to abandon the secular approach. I know all this wishful thinking and condemnation is fun for many. I’m only asserting the need for a board that furthers the essence of religion which is the esoteric knowledge of the inner man and its potential when free of dependance on imagination for those that feel its value.
Is what I’m suggesting so different than the division of the Philosophy boards? The division is based on acknowledging difference in attitudes.
This is the same. The way it is now makes religious discussion impossible for me or any others with similar interests do discuss Arjuna’s question in the Gita for example as it relates to our own life.
I am suggesting a board to take into consideration similar differences in attitude and goal.
If it doesn’t happen it just limits my posts to certain topics on other boards. If it does happen it may become beneficial for those that are attracted to the deeper realities of the esoteric traditions as we pool our understandings and experiences. It could become a unique and meaningful board.
We shall see. At least I know I’ve tried for something good.
The only self importance here is yours. There is only one perspective tolerated - yours. That’s the crux of this thread. It isn’t about ‘ancient esoteric’ ideas ,which anyone can entertain, it’s about seeing those ideas from your perspective. That’s what you’re about, and that’s why you want a division of the religion forum. You want your own playhouse. It isn’t and never was about the ideas, it was always about your particular view of those ideas. You’re so caught up in the pride and arrogance of ‘not knowing’ that you fail to accept the simple fact that others just might have a different way of seeing the same thing you purport to see.
To quote another famous authority: “Give it up. It’s not going to happen.”
Again you miss the point. The only perspective being asserted is the one stressed by all the ancient traditions and that is our “nothingness.” It is foolish to define it as my perspective since man’s self deception has been known since the beginning. This is the essential perspective of the ancient traditions and the esoteric side of all religions.
The secular or exoteric in contrast stresses our self importance and our imagined abilities of unconditional love, world peace, conversations with God, defining God and all the rest. This is a basic division
You simply cannot associate my defense of this basic of all esoteric principles as some sort of self importance or “my” perspective" because I’m willing right now as always to deny my self importance.
Look at YOUR attitudes towards my assertion. Here is a reply by me to your post and your reply in turn to me:
There is nothing wrong with questioning self deception. We all need help with inner self knowledge whether we admit to it or not and that includes me. Yet it is highly insulting for you. It will be though natural for the esoteric board. Its sincerity requires such questioning. How we verify is a basic question. Yet on the secular board it would rarely be questioned simply because its continuation requires its denial so its ridicule will be immediate.
There is no division of people but only the necessary division of attitudes and aims in accordance with the purposes of both boards.
In Buddhism the one who believes there are masters are the initiates. Those with the dharma would call none master. Any teacher that claims to be such is a charlatan that lacks enlightenment. Those who talk do not know and those that know stay silent. In essence it’s the fools who teach enlightenment through their folly as the masters are fair removed from this whole process.
Haha, one who suffers from scepticism would find this quite amusing. How can you tell what is real and what is just imagination?
But we don’t all have the same struggle, only certain groups share a similar struggle but it’s not the same. Yes we can all talk about the shadows on the walls but we all see them differently. Those that leave the cave are left blinded by the light of the sun and can’t see anything for a while, as the light is just too strong for them. Aftertime their eyes adjust and vision is restored. But as soon as they go back into the cave all becomes darkness again as their eyes again have to adjust.
This site is called I Love Philosophy, etymologically speaking, I Love the Love of Wisdom. Not I love uncritical thinking or unopposed ideas. What’s the point in expressing what you believe you are unless somebody else can validate it? Actually the worst person to ask and then answer the question ‘Who am I’ is ourselves. We view ourselves in a completely biases light. It’s impossible to be anyway objective about ourselves. It’s been noticed by “objective standard†in mental health that those who believe they are always right and understand completely how the world works are normal delusional and when pressed on a matter that they know as 100% fact are unable to then give account of their beliefs they just calm it is so. Uncritical thinking is a by-product of their madness. You have a better chance of knowing oneself if you go and take a personality test then just posting what you believe to be you in an unopposed manner. Although you won’t accept this now, you will move beyond esoteric teaching if you continue the search for self. What if I where to post in an esoteric board that I am the second coming of the Messiah & Buddha? Would anyone just blindly accept this without any critical thought? Or would they demand that I give account of myself?
Finally I really don’t think this is the right site for your style of esoteric forum. It’s not that people want to be outright confrontational they just want to understand your thinking behind your held beliefs and through this “argument†learn more about you and themselves. You can’t gain anything without some from of confrontation. Be it a confrontation with somebody on this site or our own inner struggles fighting the daemons and devils in the hope to transform ourselves into something we as yet can’t put into words. I hope you find the forum you need.
That is the importance of beginning to see ones nothingness. All I’m suggesting is a board that begins with that premise lacking the necessity to defend our imagined self importance… It’s a way of helping each other come to grips with what we are.
Quite true. Verification is an important topic and can only be shared in an environment of mutual respect…
Again you’re mixing the esoteric with the exoteric. The struggle is with ourselves. In this way it is the same struggle. What does this have to do with groups? All sincere people can do is compare results. When we become honest we begin to see why we don’t leave the cave.
The aim isn’t to assert what we are. It comes from the position that we don’t know and try to become open to the question.? All we can do is to admit the nature of our transient states. Others express theirs and we compare their effects… This is essential wisdom, applied critical thought, and getting to know each other.
This would belong on the secular board. The esoteric board deals with coming to grips with our nothingness in relation to human potential. How can we get the courage to"know thyself" What do Messiahs and Buddhas have to do with this? It is naive to blindly trust
You’re speaking of something different. Confrontation is the result of our personalities. Changing our personalities can result from confrontation and useful on the secular board. The esoteric board seeks the truth behind confrontation and requires the objective sincere efforts of its participants to become open and non-confrontational. It is sharing without pretense. It is accepting the wisdom of discussion over confrontation in matters of the heart. It is the natural attitude for one who has experienced the truth behind the parable of the Burning House in Buddhism This is how we really begin to understand each other’s thinking. It allows philosophy to regain meaning as described by Prof, Neeedleman above.
If Ben agrees that there is no place on ILP for people to discuss the love of wisdom contained in the ancient traditions with the mutual respect it deserves, then, considering the attitudes, I’ll only appear on select occasions but avoid the religion board while trying to build on this idea in a different forum which I believe can become meaningful for any genuine feeling/thinking human being willing to experience outside the box.
You may have found a way that works for you, that has helped you see yourself more clearly. Well that is truly wonderful. But sometimes we have to observe that there are others that have reached similar conclusions by walking a completely different path and rightly so, we all have our unique perspective and contribution in this world. Ultimately there can only be One complete Truth and we arrive at this in our own way, at our own pace, rythmn and timing and for you to suggest that we are not sincere in our approach is most arrogant of you and it is this arrogance of yours that puts people at arms length. There will always be those that oppose your words, and you can choose to see that opposition as a challenge and grow or you can choose to see it as their ‘self importance’. Up to you.
Humility recognises that it holds no key to the secrets of life. Humility is like water, it always searches for the lowest ground, it always stands back and listens.
I never discuss my path in negative settings. It’s not a matter of my way or your way. What is so annoying about me is I dare to suggest what all the great traditions assert in that we are asleep. By suggesting it for some reason it is assumed, no matter how many times I deny it and admit being in Plato’s cave, that somehow I feel I am exempt. Who am I to make such a claim and the growls begin. But yet all the horrors mankind is free to cyclically indulge in are due to this same tendency for gullibility and suggestibility that finds comfort in this form of sleep. It is why we do not exist as individuals with respect for the importance of essential human individuality. The idea of individuality now is seen as some sort of inhuman creature that destroys everything in sight but in reality it is sleep that does it. It is the true individual that is capable of compassion outside of selective standards.
The whole idea of the esoteric Religion board is to respect our search for individuality. to discover ourselves and not be restricted to the dictates of the “Great Beast” as Plato described and Simone Weil so incredibly built upon that force us to turn in circles inviting the lawful horrors of such a gullible mindset.
Yes, we are not sincere. If you accept the Buddhist idea of transient states you know we can sincerely decide to do one thing and as our states change, we do the opposite. We can sincerely decide to diet in the morning and eat a box of chocolate chip cookies at night because someone insults us. Where is the sincerity? People sincerely speak of peace but it is meaningless because their changing states manifest the opposite. When a person realizes this and admits it in themselves the illusory nature of platitudes is obvious.
This isn’t “my way”, it is a human response that all the esoteric traditions invite us to see in ourselves. It is part of self knowledge.
It is not a matter of opposing words, that is discussion and essential, but a refusal to be open and nasty rejection to this most basic tenant of the essence of religion: the realization of our sleep and as a result we reside in Plato’s cave. This is true humility.
I’m not being critical here but just consider the following:
I said
Quote:
Have a good day Nick. I’m off to play in the woods.
Play in the woods eh? Will you remember the forest or get lost in the trees? Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Have a good day.
Nick
[/quote]
You replied:
What is so insulting? Where is the desire for inclusive communication? My goodness I even included a smiley. It is this idea that we are not what we think we are and cannot remain present that is so insulting. This is one of the reasons that humor has degenerated so far into comedy and insult. This is why so many of Mark Twain’s classic one liners such as “A man cannot be comfortable without his own approval.” would be deemed so politically incorrect". It suggests the freedom to not take our egotism seriously but to value ourselves. It is the calling of the experience to be real. Yet it is considered as insulting. Who am I to insinuate such a thing? This is the essential calling of religion but became perverted into a power trip as the exoteric level around the esoteric began to form and secularization became dominant.
Humor as an extension of our ability to collectively admit our failings may be totally out of fashion being replaced by comedy and sarcasm but there is still a minority that are open to admitting the realities of our collective nature. This would be natural humor for the esoteric board leaving the comedy and sarcasm for the secular.
It is essential humility. It is not one group against another or one way or another. It is the acceptance of the human condition open for anyone willing to look inside and verify what is there. It isn’t “bad.” It just is what is. Is it bad that we don’t know how to play piano? No. If a person desires to play piano they have to admit they cannot and practice for the goal of eventually being able to play. If we desire to be truly human it requires first admitting that we are not and then practicing what is necessary to awaken into human understanding. But the beginning is to simply be open to admit that we are not what we think we are and fight so hard to defend. This is the beginning. When the contrast is seen Meister Eckhart’s observation becomes meaningful:
The theme of the board as it now stands is concern for what we do. The esoteric traditions assert our inability for consistency since our sleep makes us suggestible to the changing group emotions that produce war for example. This is why the esoteric emphasis is on what we are. This requires admitting that we are not what we think we are and the search on how to experience the essence of philosophy beyond words.
Dividing it into two boards gives those that want to share wonderful thoughts or clever demeaning attacks the freedom to do so while developing their ideas. This is what is wanted. Those that want to discuss what we have witnessed in ourselves, also expressed in the great religious and philosophical traditions, will have the freedom also without ridicule, noses in the air, and selective scorn so as to develop our insights. This is also what is wanted. What is so horrible about that? It is the essential love of and respect for wisdom.
Nick, some of us recognize the difference between talking about it and living it. Life is a bit more than intellectual blah, blah, blah. Do us all a favor and leave us with our ‘corrupt egos’. Go find a place where suspension in intellectualizing is considered life. You’ll be happier there and the rest of us can wander around in Plato’s cave. I think that’s the best answer.
This is why I am suggesting the separate board. The basic consideration of this essential idea of humility expressed in the ancient philosophical and religious traditions is repulsive to the secular mind. Exactly this reaction is spoken of by Plato in the cave allegory.
Is there really no place on ILP that those wishing to explore the depths of the union of religion and philosphy described by Prof. Needleman and what is the hidden side of religion by, as you see, by the necessity for survival?
It really would be an interesting and meaningful board.
We really do appreciate you taking the time to post your suggestion here and elaborate on what it would involve. It’s possible that in the future we would put your suggestion into practice but as you can see, at the moment it does not have the staff support which is crucial when starting new projects.
Your contribution to the forum is invaluable so please continue to post your thoughts and inspire discussion in the main religion forum.
Reading between the lines I get the impression that though those around you are closed, you are open minded towards the distinction I am making. Secondly, I am not really all that horrible. Progress!!
It seems like such a natural distinction I am surprised at the negative reaction. What is the reason for the heavily moderated philosophy board and the regular philosophy board? The heavily moderated board requires a “form” that is traditional for logical debate. In theory at least, it desires to reflect what was expressed by Kierkegaard:
Freedom of thought it seems, requires a certain degree of logic to be meaningful in traditional philosophy
Where the distinction in traditional philosophy and casual philosophy exists as form, in religious depth or distinguishing the real from the illusory as in the esoteric traditions, the distinction is “intent”. Is the intent to assert and argue about what we believe we know or begin with the premise that we don’t know and understand? Casual religious debate begins with our self importance; what we believe we know and defend to validate ourselves and prestige. The esoteric traditions begin with the assumption that we don’t know or understand as is possible for a human being so becomes open to new impressions; putting new wine into new bottles.
Naturally then, on a website where communication is limited to written language leaving us open to misunderstanding, it is necessary to have a certain attitude towards language.
If the intent is to share from the agreed upon mutual desire to become open and respecting openness so as to expand philosophy for ourselves through its inner verification, how we experience it impartially, then the use of language is a key feature.
Where language is used to vent personal frustration in secular exchanges as in sarcasm, it is useless when sharing on the validating experiences of philosophy. The goal isn’t glamorizing complaints but in the attempt for the experience of reality that our psychological defenses deny us.
So on such a board, the following page would be an advisable stickey. There is nothing cutsey pooh about it inviting any politically correct jargon or denying speech, it merely suggests the value of speech itself in freeing oneself from the defense mechanisms that deny the desired quality of communication.
Again, the focus is on intent. Take the following excerpt for example:
While on the secular board, precisely such sarcasm etc. is natural since it is a part of culture, if the intent of the esoteric is beyond culture, a different tone is required where humor would replace sarcasm for example. Just bring six people together initially that understand the value of considering philosophy in the context of inner verification, the goal of esoteric traditions, and others appreciating the sincerity would begin to join in since it is just natural as opposed to pretense or agendas.
Now there is too much rejection but if you should ever want to draw this distinction of intent in the religious format inviting the esoteric ideas as complimentary to the distinction of form in philosophy, I’ll help.
