Identity Principle ?

Because there is no “XYZ”, you have just called it that. Its an imaginary term for a reality that can never be entire [or otherwise absolute] and hence not true in and of itself. That is to say; ‘what is partial is not true’ where we can supplement true for real if you like.

Because either description can never be exact, and the thing it describes can never be exact, hence its always going to be wrong.

edit; Certainly when you make the connection between any two things as in; ‘XYZ ≡ RST [identically equal]’, you have already added a third factor [the connection] and ascribed equal labels to both, when any description would at least put them in different spatial locations as compared to one another and their environment. Otherwise we are simply naming the same thing twice?

_

Anthropomorphism, and a self-referential fallacy.

Names are neither true or false.

I would really hurt a great deal if I thought so poorly.

Bull.
I can name anything as any name I like. The name has nothing to do with the object being named other than acting as a reference word. There is no “imaginary thing” that I am equating anything to. I have merely given a name to whatever was there. There is no wrong to it unless I infer that the same name also is used to describe something else that is different. That would constitute an equivocation error.

What is “partial” IS true, but not complete. No one said that the item was ONLY an averaged box or dog.

I disagree, my description was exactly 100% accurate.
So point out where you think my description was in error.
In what way is the item NOT an XYZ or an RST?

That is exactly what we ARE doing. THAT is the whole point to the Identity Principle. It is ONLY talking about ONE thing at a time.

“Identity Principle” is a grammatical abomination. Where is the philosophy forum anyway?

to perceive requires time

but time itself is a difference in perceptions

thus an entity is not itself

for multiple reasons…

‘to be’ perhaps requires the passing of time

and the comparison of ‘an entity’ and ‘itself’ requires time to comprehend, thereby pointing out the difference

i love it when arguments go here… or start here

i think it begins to touch upon something more profound

time

a topic that no one will likely convince me he/she fully understands

a topic that i don’t understand yet want to understand more

OP no two things can be in the same place at the same time, and the place and time in which a thing is, is a property of that thing, so no two things can share that property. I get that.

But, to say that this means you can’t have a law of identity means that you’re saying that every other property of those two objects can be identical, but if those aren’t then the objects aren’t identical so there can be no law of identity ignores the fact that you’ve made proper identifications the other 99.999% of the time.

Science just deals in corelations, so it’s ok if we just rule out this one property, things can’t really be absolute anyway.

There’s 2 great papers, by David Kellogg Lewis on this stuff that I find interesting. One is called, “an argument for identity theory”, and the other, “elusive knowledge”, which is about the times when certain kinds of skepticism can be properly ignored.

Geez, how many times does this have to be said;

[size=150]THERE ARE NOT TWO OBJECTS INVOLVED.[/size]

There’s a bigger problem than that, James. Whatever you want to call it - a law, a principle, a rule of thumb - it has absolutely no use in logic, or in philosophy, for that matter. It’s just something that Aristotle came up with and that people have liked to refer to over the years. Something closer to what Smears mentions is of some use - and it is often called the same thing. It’s usually just called “equivalence”. I don’t know who wrote the Wiki article, but I wouldn’t leave home and family to study logic under him.

“OP no two things can be in the same place at the same time,”

Not exactly: Nothing at all (no ONE thing) can be in the same place and at the same time because time is always flowing and the thing is always changing position.

“THERE ARE NOT TWO OBJECTS INVOLVED.”

There is not even ONE object involved since you cannot pinpoint it down in time and space to infinite precision.

But, the very fact that we can use these approximate principles means that we somehow “format” reality, we “translate it” we “decode it” into something else, we “Digitize it” into some kinds of ONEs and ZEROS and act upon it. How can we, when if we are made up of matter and matter itself doesn’t even contain ONE entity that can possible exist and is the same to itself ?

We are some gadget looking at the world from Outside of it, we are in some abstract world, we are outside of the universe looking in and formatting it according to our Man Brain. And it works for us and it is ok, and all is well, we don’t need precision.

But the real properties of the world and universe, by denying the very possibility of the Identity Principle deny the possibility of any possible logic and non contradiction, hence the Universe is totally contradictory and totally incomprehensible, is totally disjoint from us, a total absolute unknown, has nothing at all to do with us, zero relationship with us, we are aliens here…

Of course, we will keep on using logic and mathematics and physics and such because it works and it is “good enough” for our uses, etc. But something is deeply wrong with our Man Brain, hence design a new one, create a new Man brain that operates on pure contradiction and kills all logic and Identity Principles and Non Contradiction…(granted, not an easy task… maybe an impossible task ?).

Haha… you have more than proven that you are hardly a source for such. :laughing:

Exactly.

You don’t think that guy knows some logic? He’s actually pretty well versed.

Bull.
I have discussed it with him. He STILL can’t even define logic after it was spelled out for him (never mind his serious inability to use it). The thesis he pasted is impressive and stands for a lot of work. I was first impressed too, but after talking to him, I discovered his complete lack of understanding of what he posted. It is a cut-n-paste thesis like a teacher gets in grammar school.

To Faust “logic == valid reasoning”
And of course, “valid == sound logic”

In short, “logic is whatever logic declares valid” or simply, “whatever we say is right”. { = no fucking idea}
It’s embarrassing and insulting.

From:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=174921&start=25

A = not A. That is the question. That is a “contradictory universe”. Where does this exist, how does this exist ? It does exist, but it doesn’t “do” anything. That is the point, it is in a metaphysical dimension of no activity, no further actions, no further relationships, it needs no other relationships, there are no further elaborations, no other interactions of this state of “existence” or “being” than itself. You are not going to use it to reach other new relationships, you can’t use it in any sense at all, because using it means plugging it in some kind of language, logic, some kind of “progression” towards something else, but it already contains, within itself, all that it needs since it doesn’t need anything else, it is total, totalizing and finished.

It especially has no relationship with “us”, with our mind, there is nothing we can do with it, there is no kinds of “Intentionality of Use” that we can apply to it. This is real metaphysics, real philosophy, that for which there is no further use, no further relationship, except these words or similar that describe vaguely how it relates to what we already know. All of our science, language, thoughts and memory are relationships defined according to what we already know, are new elaborations in an already given solution space, and these new elaborations and calculations bring on further new ones or apparently new ones, expanding the solution space as in the “progress of science and knowledge and the insertion of new bits in memory as a result”, that are “used” to generate others, in a “process”, a cycle.

But metaphysics is still, static, is frozen, doesn’t progress. Like when we stop to think about time, it is a constant present moment that divides that past from the future, but it isn’t the past or the future and the moment is fleeting, is intractable. These kinds of problems have no solution, these problems are absolutely new every time you look at them, there is no possible solution to this equation, there is no possible “progress” as is understood in terms of logic and science that can be applied to this, it will be always the same whether we look at it at 5 years old or after a trillion times, at 100 years old. There is nothing we can “do” with this problem, no further possible “understanding” by meditating upon it. And indeed metaphysics and philosophy at this level also has no social use, no one can help you on this one, you are alone with this, your mind is alone with this thought and no amount of social interaction, of “communication” will change this. And in fact real philosophy has no need to be communicated, has no use, has no social meaning, has no logical use whatsoever, it is simply the mind looking at impossible problems, taking a glimpse in a new universe of metaphysical platonic monolithic slabs of crashed mental “computer programs”.

Most problems in philosophy are completely new every time you look at them, no matter how many times you already looked at them, this is because the nature of these problems and the way our mind reacts to them is always like the first time, we repeat forever the same awe and feel the same distance from these problems, there is no possible progress in philosophy, it is always repeated the same and often, even the more you look at these problems “the newer they become”, the further you get from solutions, the worse it gets. All of our normal everyday logic goes out of the window when thinking about a “contradictory universe”, “time”, “existence” and other similars, the difference with everyday concepts, with science or even mathematics and physics is astounding, the problem of “existence” is so general and abstract, that all other problems become puny, irrelevant, for little boys.

Like the concept of “existence”. This is also a monolithic slab, for anything to “exist”, “existence” itself must already exist, but exactly where, in what way is something real, does something exist, is something true ? No solution, the further you think about it, the worst it gets, reverse progress, another characteristic of philosophy is that the more you “work” on problems the further you get away from any solutions, a concept or problem must simply be perceived, stated, and left alone, and your mind can simply wander, don’t use logic, it is useless, counterproductive.

One last thing, instead of “A = not A”, write, “= A not =”. What is = ? How can this be ? It is, but it is another monolithic slab. Write others, invent other concepts they are all real, what is the square root of the square root without applying it to numbers ? That is metaphysics, that is where things really exist.

The structure of existence, if something is true it must exist in all time and in all points in space simultaneously, otherwise there is a place where it isn’t. So if we are alive and what we see is true, then we must be alive in all time and for all points in space otherwise (but we were dead, and will be dead, and we are not walking on mars)… and we must be concentrating on the same information the same Information Relationship, Reciprocal Information Interactions and Reciprocal Mass - Energy - Matter Interactions, but if there are other Reciprocal Information Relationships, what makes the previous one still exist ? Memory ? But if you think of the previous one you lose the present one, so what gives ? We are contradiction, we are without any solution.

In theoretical physics, the most abstract theory of new universes has the same distance in our mind to the most concrete theory, they are all denotations, just Reciprocal Information Relationships, some are associated to measurements that somehow confirm the “reality” of the theory, but in all truth, they are all real, only some can be translated into some other language where instrumental manipulations can be used. But this begs the question, since we always essentially just talk to ourselves, we probably can invent a new instrumental relationship, and lie to ourselves and make any theory truth.

Reality couldn’t have been based but on Quantum Theory, it couldn’t have been any different, there is no way that an electron circling an atom could have been a rigid ball with an infinitely precise size, a monolithic slab, otherwise the world would have been completely deterministic and completely tractable and predictable, the three body problem exactly solvable (but there is an abstract universe where this is true, that abstract universe exists and is real just as much as ours given the nature of “existence”).

But reality exists exactly because the laws of physics don’t exist in some points of space, the probabilistic, quantum nature of reality reflects this, it is the non existence of any patterns and laws that make the existence of the patterns and laws of physics real. Just like philosophy states that something exists only because it exists in the background of its opposite.

Reality is the subtle string of the lack of the laws of physics that gives the laws of physics their reality.

Indeed, there is no equivalence between description/things. But one would think that if something contained information about itself and we could read that, then there would be an equivalence between description/things.

Point being that things don’t contain informations about themselves I.e. as an exact description about what they are, hence A is not A. all we get is representative information about things I.e. in metaphysical terms ~ beyond our descriptions.

This is - if I may because there are no ‘things’, no exact objects, so the information they may contain pertains to changing states hence is never exacting.

We have;
changing states
Relative states
Informational relationships between a former and new state of a thing.

Informations about objects is thus concerned with multiples which then relate to further sets, the whole thing being in constant flux.

btw, I am not speaking about info in terms of language.

From:

kunstler.com/blog/2012/02/all-sc … honor.html

"Travel, like so many things life allows us in the modern age, is mostly like Andy Warhol’s description of sex … “The biggest nothing of all time”. "

And, conversely, Pain is the Smallest Nothing Ever that can become the Biggest Something Ever…

Actually, I will extend that:

The Smallest Nothing Ever Can Become the Biggest Something Ever…

The Biggest Something Ever Can Become the Smallest Nothing Ever…

The Smallest Nothing Ever Is the Biggest Something Ever…

The Biggest Something Ever Is the Smallest Nothing Ever…

The internal contradiction of the Identity Principle is that in order for two entities to be the same they must be distinguishable as two therefore there must be some difference, some element that distinguishes them and at the same time in order for them to be different there must be some element of the two that are the same in order to even compare them, to even relate them. Some element of the two entities must be exactly the same, equivalent in order to even relate them since any comparison between the two must be hinged on some reference point, some invariant that serves as the starting point, the zero of the coordinate system so to say from which to measure the two and obtain two different measurements and some element must be infinitely different in order to distinguish them, to declare them as two entities upon which the Identity Principle can be declared, the values V1, V2 that are plugged into the function “Identity Principle(V1, V2)”.

So they are the same and different at the same time, a pure total contradiction, thought paths and processes break down, logic breaks down, this is the end of the line for our Man Brain as it is presently configured and designed. You must change the design of the present Man Brain to eliminate the contradiction…

Also, time is the constant change of the configuration of bits describing the entire universe, and since this configuration is always changing no matter what, in a sense time travel is impossible because each time instant is one configuration of bits that will never come back again and can never be obtained again, each instant is a unique number that can never be written down again no matter what, a fleeting number that was and will never be again no matter what, no matter how infinite the universe is in size and time or anything else, infinity in time and space and anything cannot ever make that fleeting instant appear again, no matter what. So this can be a definition of time.

Of course you can locally configure the bits of a chunk of matter in a cube to be exactly like New Jersey in 1953 with all the people there and reproduce the exact same “Information Relationships” between people and their minds and memories and all and actually really travel back in time, at least as far as our Man Brain experience can tell and distinguish (let alone play around with it inserting new memories and mixing different time slots and elements, different time periods (a year 2000 model car in NJ of 1953 and such) to see how people react and such). But the chunk of matter in the cube that is configured accordingly to make believe and simulate that it is an environment that “once was” is delimited in space, maybe a chunk of matter, a cube of matter 100 km wide and long and high where the simulation of that exact past is being performed in such a way that the actors within that “fake past” could never tell that they are in a fake reality, since the only thing that counts is the Experience and Reciprocal Information Relationships between the actors and their interaction with the material items and people surrounding them. However, outside of the cube of matter playing out the simulation, time would still be flowing forward, the configuration of the universe as a whole would still be ever changing, just that cube would be repeating a sequence that was performed previously for only some very small and insignificant subset of the universe as a whole, a small chunk of matter returning back to a configuration it once had, but only for that very small chunk of matter, it can easily be done and performed and played out. So it wouldn’t contradict the laws of the never returning numbers again.

That would beg the question: is there a metaphysical entity, property of matter that makes it deeply different from itself, from another configuration of matter exactly equivalent, mathematically equivalent being billions of light years across, even if just one photon millions of light years away is different as compared to an exactly equivalent chunk of matter inside a cube of hundreds of millions of light years across ? In other words, take two cubes of matter 100 million light years wide and high and long, make them 100 % exactly equivalent and then change just one photon: does that change the two chunks in such a way as to express the flow of time ? is time hinged only on change no matter how small, and change is constant if only because particles are never at thermal rest ?

From:

physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=525749

“Why is there Something rather than Nothing” ?

What are the constraints ? What reference system is imposing what constraints on reality, the universe, its design, its logic, etc. ? None, and in fact questions like this imply some external, more general reference system where some kinds of laws or logic, some constraints are operating such that there must be some kind of logical answer: nothing further from the truth, the more general reference system, the superset where the universe or/and our logic, language, or the Principles of Identity and Non Contradiction are operating is a subset of, is a system where absolutely anything goes: even an answer like “NO REASON AT ALL”, or “JUST BECAUSE” or anything else you can imagine.

The fact is we cannot imagine or contain a reference system that doesn’t have logic, non contradiction and is void of cause and effects, whereas this is exactly the reference system where the universe and our laws of physics are delimited in: and this reference system is so general that it has no space or time constraints, no existence constraints, no constraints at all, or constraints which are way beyond our capability to conceive: and in fact the typical answers such as the “higher probability of something against nothing is the reason why there is something” implies that you are already within a smaller, simpler, more limited subset and reference system compared to a free and non constraining general reference system, implies that cause and effect and non contradiction are operating, but that already simply brings us back to our universe anyways, whereas the answer to why there is something and not nothing is outside of our logic and universe and even outside of any of our language and constructions and thought processes and such. In other words, it is even outside of the concepts of Questions and Answers, the question can have any and no answer at all, and you are free to lie, as saying non truths and lies and contradictions is the only way to begin to approach these kinds of problems, if they are even problems, if they are even questions and such.

Hence, why something and not nothing ? Just Because, FOR NO REASON AT ALL.

From:

instantsingularity.blogspot.com/

Interesting to see the difference between Theoretical Physics and Philosophy - Metaphysics:

Theoretical Physics:

Essentially states How far can we take logical and mathematical structures and still make them somehow be tied up to the real physical world, still have some kind of connection, even though very weak or indirect with physical reality ? An example could be Superstring Theory.

Philosophy and Metaphysics:

Essentially states How far can logical and mathematical structures be pushed operating on items as far removed as possible from the physical world, items as abstract, absurd and impossible as possible, hence having zero connection to the real physical world, but still being connected to each other through any form of logic, mathematical or thought processes and sequences ? An example could be the invention of a new state - meaning - concept expressing it as “the square root of the word thought”.

But whereas the theoretical physicist and also the mathematician still has some constraints upon what he can do by some connection, no matter how weak, with the real world, or at least with some possible logic that is somewhat non contradictory and that somewhat still must follow some sense, the metaphysical and philosophical “Inventor” no longer has any constraints whatsoever, is free to investigate anything at all, make up any connections he wants, invent anything he wants, doesn’t have any possible constraint operating upon his tasks. But then items as contradictory and absurd as possible can always be connected to each other or invented, just their existence, their delimitation in our mind, their presence already provides them with a minimum of logical and mathematical structure as in order to exist, in order to contain them in our mind, in order to even speak about them they must at least follow the basic principles of identity and non contradiction…

Ting, ting, the information about my glass of water cannot find a way to get inside the glass of water itself.
The only thing we know for sure exists is information, forget objects and trying to reduce everything to physics and math as metaphors concerning objects ~ which themselves are metaphors of information.