Will machines completely replace all human beings?

I have never said that it is not possible or not real that people sometimes replace cheaper things by expensive things. But that is not meant in this thread - as evreybody knows in case of understanding the question which is the TITLE OF MY THREAD and the TITLE OF MY OP: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

  1. If I say “expensive things are replaced by cheaper things”, then it is clear that I don’t speak about “luxus” and so on - generally machines do not belong to luxuriousness.
  2. If I say “machines are cheaper than human beings”, then it is clear that I don’t speak about toys and so on - generally machines do not belong to toys.
    If we go further with “nitpicking”, than we will at last not be able to speak. Speaking and thinking need some gaps or breaks, elsewise there were nothing to speak or think about (because in that case any- and everything were defined for all eternity). All modern totalitarianisms seek definitions for all eternity, and that is very dangerous for all people without power.

Nevertheless we need definitions, but we can not have definitions for all eternity. That’s impossible for human beings, but that is possible for machines.

I am working on a problem called the cure, and i cannot be specific, because it's full of non sequitors, holes.  Arguments are sometimes full of holes, because at times, the premise can not contain the conclusion regardless of the number of logical steps.

 Here, i see big divide, a disconnect of the very thing James is attempting to show with the inverted pyramid, the backward slanting argument, or arguing repetitiously with difference. There is no paradigm, therefore, the logical either or, is predicated by a new element, his 3Rd man, and although he sustains his notion of formal elements, such as it is, reduced, by increasing numbers of repetitions. The third element, seeks to rise above this logic, and create the synthesis, within a dialectic of reason.  This reason, this cure, has preoccupied men from the classical age on, and reached a climax with Hegel. With Hegel, he would see the machine problem as the satisfactory amalgam of man and machine, and as James would have it, within a reasonable marriage of both. That both be harmonized to the best advantage of man gains credible momentum, because it is doubtful, that a machine would self create toward  it's own selfish benefit,   since, such machine would need to be designed with safeguards. It is undoubtedly questionable, that all work would be delegated to machines, since even in a machine delegated world, control. production of newer machines, and even bypasses to eventual self replicating machines would  have to have human overseers. And finally, if evil machines would evolve, to totally displace humanity,  men, waging war , because of the probable co-production of man-machine hybrids, would be able to have a Wellsian war of the worlds, benefiting mankind.

But what if, super-intelligent, vastly advanced robot army would try to undermine an evolved cyborg army? In such a showdown, incredibly powerful basis of power would be vested, and there would not be any clear winners, just as the evil empire of the soviet empire could not overcome the mighty western world, and conversely the ideological strength of dialectical materialism may never cease to exert a very powerful force to be reckoned with, as a de-compensating force to limitless capitalisation.

 Finally, for this  reason,it is compelling to point to connections between classical and post modern aspects of a logic, whose skeleton, is insufficient to hold the  the corpus of such a weighty argument.

Would you - please - explain your last sentence, Obe?

 Logic, in the traditional sense, has always been thought of in the form of identity and I don't think i have to explain what that entails, suffice with, the above descriptions. However, identity, implies identity with some "thing" and element that is shared by at least 2 "things".  This shared thing became the model, the paradigm which served the sameness into which these things fitted, as in a mold.  Later, much later, this paradigm became deconstructed. And a different kind of logic came to be the predominant form of apprehending reasoning, vis, difference.  The differential calculus was the analytical foreshadowing of of limits, approximations, and literally, the functional use of logic.  The point is, discerning the steps  (logical) became more and more an exercise in delineating the in between the either/or in any logical problem.  In Meno's paradox, the half steps become increasingly small,and the logical limits become approximations. This correlates with the arc of the circle, where increasingly many sided figures of equal sides can be constructed within the circle, where the limit appears to be the figure with infinite sides.  However the such a figure, would have sides with no length, only an infinite number of points.  The concept of infinity is not accessible to Meno because, it was obvious the turtle would eventually reach the end.  This concept was prevalent all through the Middle Ages, when it was thought that the earth's horizon consisted of a drop off point.  The language of logic was based here on the paradigm of the perfect circular objects the ideal figure, with which other objects shared identity.  

When it was found that the horizon was ever moving away from the point of view of the observer,
the ideal object of circularity changed, from a static point of view of the observer, to that of the moving toward a never ending horizon of circularity. The concept of perfect circularity was destroyed, as in the concept of identity, A=A, and there became no two perfectly identical circles or spheres. Logical difference became the form of reasoning, and the principle of exclusion, made the logical deduction shift toward inductive reasoning, by processes of elimination. If A=B and if B=C, then A could =X,Y,Z, if all other elements are equal. But from premise to conclusion, there may be any number of elements, and any one being indeterminable or variable, could upset the syllogism. This meant, that hypotheses had to be made, on basis of probability, as to what premis(s) could satisfy that hypothesis. Functional analysis does not start at the starting gate of meno’s paradox, but guessing at the most probable result and working it back, to a probable starting point by excluding all elements most unlikely to effect change. The fact that those elements were effected by other most probable events, makes this logic verifiable not by simple reductionism but by processes best described by game theory of sets, i believe.

Would like to add, my take is philosophical and am looking at paradox, as a foreshadowing of this coming problem of analytic/synthetic propositions, in classical times.

It is paradoxical that there is no agreement in the OP’s assertion, but science has developed by leaps and bounds by virtue of seemingly paradoxical understanding of phenomenon, so there is no clear cut model to understanding, except looking at the OP/ hypothetically, and working it out through game theory.

Obviously we would not want a world to be ruled by machines, and how does this probable future relate to the present? How can certain events be excluded, so as to make that scenario less likely? Or put in another way, what elements can be safely excluded, or safely left undiscovered, so as not to pose as a logical flaw to this objective?(to avoid a machine run scenario).

I was hoping for a neat logical way to point to an answer, but found it impossible without laying some kind of credible foundation. I can’t help but to think, though, that this reversal, was meant to imply some kind of test, rather then a serious doubt about what usual syllogisms entail. Since reversibility in logic is not entirely ex-post facto, i have confidence in james’ holdout for formal elements. I share those views to an extent, in the effect of “tacit knowledge”(M.Polanyi), has on game theory.

 Logic, in the traditional sense, has always been thought of in the form of identity and I don't think i have to explain what that entails, suffice with, the above descriptions. However, identity, implies identity with some "thing" and element that is shared by at least 2 "things".  This shared thing became the model, the paradigm which served the sameness into which these things fitted, as in a mold.  Later, much later, this paradigm became deconstructed. And a different kind of logic came to be the predominant form of apprehending reasoning, vis, difference.  The differential calculus was the analytical foreshadowing of of limits, approximations, and literally, the functional use of logic.  The point is, discerning the steps  (logical) became more and more an exercise in delineating the in between the either/or in any logical problem.  In Meno's paradox, the half steps become increasingly small,and the logical limits become approximations. This correlates with the arc of the circle, where increasingly many sided figures of equal sides can be constructed within the circle, where the limit appears to be the figure with infinite sides.  However the such a figure, would have sides with no length, only an infinite number of points.  The concept of infinity is not accessible to Meno because, it was obvious the turtle would eventually reach the end.  This concept was prevalent all through the Middle Ages, when it was thought that the earth's horizon consisted of a drop off point.  The language of logic was based here on the paradigm of the perfect circular objects the ideal figure, with which other objects shared identity.  

When it was found that the horizon was ever moving away from the point of view of the observer,
the ideal object of circularity changed, from a static point of view of the observer, to that of the moving toward a never ending horizon of circularity. The concept of perfect circularity was destroyed, as in the concept of identity, A=A, and there became no two perfectly identical circles or spheres. Logical difference became the form of reasoning, and the principle of exclusion, made the logical deduction shift toward inductive reasoning, by processes of elimination. If A=B and if B=C, then A could =X,Y,Z, if all other elements are equal. But from premise to conclusion, there may be any number of elements, and any one being indeterminable or variable, could upset the syllogism. This meant, that hypotheses had to be made, on basis of probability, as to what premis(s) could satisfy that hypothesis. Functional analysis does not start at the starting gate of meno’s paradox, but guessing at the most probable result and working it back, to a probable starting point by excluding all elements most unlikely to effect change. The fact that those elements were effected by other most probable events, makes this logic verifiable not by simple reductionism but by processes best described by game theory of sets, i believe.

Would like to add, my take is philosophical and am looking at paradox, as a foreshadowing of this coming problem of analytic/synthetic propositions, in classical times.

It is paradoxical that there is no agreement in the OP’s assertion, but science has developed by leaps and bounds by virtue of seemingly paradoxical understanding of phenomenon, so there is no clear cut model to understanding, except looking at the OP/ hypothetically, and working it out through game theory.

Obviously we would not want a world to be ruled by machines, and how does this probable future relate to the present? How can certain events be excluded, so as to make that scenario less likely? Or put in another way, what elements can be safely excluded, or safely left undiscovered, so as not to pose as a logical flaw to this objective?(to avoid a machine run scenario).

I was hoping for a neat logical way to point to an answer, but found it impossible without laying some kind of credible foundation. I can’t help but to think, though, that this reversal, was meant to imply some kind of test, rather then a serious doubt about what usual syllogisms entail. Since reversibility in logic is not entirely ex-post facto, i have confidence in james’ holdout for formal elements. I share those views to an extent, in the effect of “tacit knowledge”(M.Polanyi), has on game theory.

double post

Again:

The TITLE OF MY THREAD and the TITLE OF MY OP is a [size=108]QUESTION[/size]:

[list][list][list][list][list][list][size=108]Will machines completely replace all human beings?[/size][/list:u][/list:u][/list:u][/list:u][/list:u][/list:u]
And my given logical implication is valid because of the fact that both premises are known - known in that way which is the usaual way of ILP (only very less threads are opened with a logical implication, for eample Gib’s one which is false because he doesn’t satisfie the logical implication truth table.

I insist on that because ILP doesn’t demand a syllogisms and a logical implication when it comes to open a thread. So, actually, one doesn’t have to give any syllogism, one doesn’t have to give any logical implication in the OP. (Though I have given them!). If all ILP threads had to be opened by syllogisms and logical implications, then the statistics of ILP would be merely 1-10% of the total posts, and 1-10% of the total topics, and 1-10% of the actual total members.

I have given the syllogism and the logical implication in the easiest way (as possible) because I had assumed that the most readers are more able to follow the logic in a simple way than in a more complicated way. And in that way the syllogism and the logical implication MY OP are not false.

13 pages and 307 posts of this thread (Will machines completely replace all human beings?) have shown or even proved that my given syllogism and my given logical implication are true.

Have I forgotten “emotional ‘arguments’”?

But then:

“Any worker (human or machine) that is cheaper” IS A CHEAPER THING.
“A worker that is more expensive” IS MORE EXPENSIVE.

There is no problem.

Fuse’s disagreement has nothing to do with logical arguments, but merely with his emotions!

Fuse doesn’t want to answer the question of this thread (Will machines completely replace all human beings?) with “yes” or “no”, he disagrees to poll, he diagrees to my premise 2, he disagrees …, okay, he may disagree - I don’t care -, but he has no argument.

Again:

I have never said that it is not possible or not real that people sometimes replace cheaper things by expensive things. But that is not meant in this thread - as everybody knows in case of understanding the question which is the TITLE OF MY THREAD and the TITLE OF MY OP: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

  1. If I say “expensive things are replaced by cheaper things”, then it is clear that I don’t speak about “luxury” and so on - generally machines do not belong to luxury.
  2. If I say “machines are cheaper than human beings”, then it is clear that I don’t speak about toys and so on - generally machines do not belong to toys.
    If we go further with “nitpicking”, than we will at last not be able to speak. Speaking and thinking need some gaps or breaks, elsewise there were nothing to speak or think about (because in that case any- and everything were defined for all eternity). All modern totalitarianisms seek definitions for all eternity, and that is very dangerous for all people without power.

Nevertheless we need definitions, but we can not have definitions for all eternity. That’s impossible for human beings, but that is possible for machines.

Machines can describe, and identify, but definitions are formed by attributing signs to identified objects. Signs are not a product of invention ad nihilo, but communally developed and recognized symbols of meaning. Can machines ever do this? At the very least, in a totally excluded human world, with only inter-machine communication, machines would need to develop self consciousness. Above that, they would need to develop the ability to communicate with other machines, also conscious as well. For that to happen, the idea of ‘consciousness’ would have to be solved, first, and then, machines would need to be programmed as such ,by evolving consciousness, just as mankind did. How is the assumption that machines could evolve faster and better then man make sense? Apart from this quirk i see no problem with machines retaining definitions.

In order to become more powerful than human beings, machines need a will to power, interests, …, and so on.

Arminius,

Please don’t mischaracterize my statements. Premise 2 differs between the two quoted versions of the argument you posted a few posts above. That cheaper machines will always replace more expensive human workers is not a logical necessity. It may be found to be true empirically and there may be observable trends which lead you to believe it, but it isn’t true by logical necessity, which has a certain stipulated meaning in this context.

Ver. 1

Ver. 2

There is nothing wrong with disputing a statement of logical implication if it is not the conclusion of a valid deductive argument. Neither quoted argument has a logical implication as its conclusion. The logical implication is premise 2 in arg. version 1 and premise 1 in arg. version 2. There is nothing absurd about disagreeing with a premise. Obviously it falls on me to provide a reason I don’t accept the premise, but even if I didn’t it wouldn’t make the implication a logical necessity. Really, in this case, the first thing that needs mentioning is the fact that the implication implies there is some reason cheaper workers will always be preferred. So who is doing the preferring? It is us. Human beings. I am a human being, am I not, and I would not prefer a machine to a human in all cases, even when cheaper. Who wants to talk to a machine to get tech support; not me or anyone I know. I’d rather talk to a real person who I can relate to and who can better relate to me, and companies know that which is why many still employ human representatives to answer questions and concerns. That is a counter example to the statement Any worker (human or machine) that is cheaper will replace a worker that is more expensive. or the other version Expensive things are replaced by cheaper things. Human workers have qualities that machines do not currently come near to achieving. There are many jobs where the most fundamentally human qualities are the most important. And we do not know when or even if it’s possible to build a machine that is fundamentally human-like. Furthermore, no matter how close, there could still be prejudice, and for good reason. When it comes down to human preference why wouldn’t we prefer our own kind, with whom we can relate to on the most fundamental level, especially if we foresee a future in which machines could dominate and eliminate us?

Fuse.

What you have been saying is not as important for this thread as you probably have been thinking.

I didn’t mischaracterise your statements.

Have you read the thread? Have you read my other posts? Probabaly you have not because of some of your interests which have nothing to do with this topic here.

Not always. But nevertheless: that statement is one of my two true premises because it is generally accepted. I don’t have to start with the exceptions. Exceptions prove the rule - anyway. I even don’t have to start with syllogisms and logical implications, when I open a thread here in this forum (ILP) - as I repeatedly said (please read it!), and I also don’t have to do it, when the title of my thread and the title of my OP is a question, cp.: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

No problem in order to accept. But it is an opinion, your opinion (and probably even my opinion - have you ever thought about that? [so please read the thread!]), it is no counter argument against my arguments.

All what you have been telling in your last posts (adressed to me) contains no arguments, only disagreements, nothing new. That’s destructive, thus not constructive.

You have no argument and no counter argument. You always only disagree - without arguments or counter arguments. That’s all.

You’re not dealing with my position, you ignored the latter half of my post, and referencing formally structured arguments makes this conversation clearer, especially when you charge me with:

I have refuted this completely, but you’re brushing it off. Logical truth has a stipulated meaning, and I’ve explained that my disagreement is perfectly reasonable. Why is it that you have avoided responding to my main points?

The proposition of machines completely replacing human beings in the future depends on the premises that support it, so why are you ignoring any discussion of the premises? I’ve given a plausible counter example to your premise in my last post.

If you had read more of my my posts, then you would have known that I don’t ignore your posts. Even in my last post I mentioned that I porbably also don’t want to be replaced by machines. So why are you crying so much?

What you are saying in your last post is no counter argument because that is what I have been saying for about 40 years (cp.: you are 25 years old - according to ILP viewing profile).

Please don’t confuse ideality with reality!

Your pseudonym is “Fuse”. And your real name? “Confuse”? Your “logical truth” is “disagreeing” or “reversing” the logical truth which is accepted - as logical truth, not as wish, desire, hope …, and os on - by at least 80%. One can always disagree - that’s no mighty deed. So: If you say “Any worker (human or machine) that is cheaper will NOT replace a worker that is more expensive” or “NO worker (human or machine) that is cheaper will replace a worker that is more expensive”, then you have to argue in that way, but you can merely argue in that way, if you deny the logical truth of the 80 or probably more percent. Because: the fact that nearly all machines are cheaper than human beings is accepted by at least 80 or probably more percent.

Your so called “counter examples” are no counter examples to my examples because they are integrated in my examples, and as I denoted in my last post: I don’t want to be replaced by machines as well as you. But that are our opinions - not more.

You didn’t refute anything.

Your “logical truth” is at the utmost a “10-20%-truth”. So what about the “80-90% truth”? Who ignores? Who confuses? Don’t confuse, Fuse!

From my philosophy of Logic teacher: The syllogism is invalid because it has four terms. Valid syllogisms have three terms, the two in the conclusion, and the one in both premises.

In its earliest form, defined by Aristoteles, from the combination of a general statement (the major premise [=> 1]) and a specific statement (the minor premise [=> 2), a conclusion (=> 3) is deduced. For example, knowing that all men are mortal (major premise) and that Sokrates is a man (minor premise), we may validly conclude that Sokrates is mortal. Syllogistic arguments are usually represented in a three-line form (without sentence-terminating periods):

[url=http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185562&start=300#p2466923]1) All M are P
2) All S are M
3) All S are P

  1. All human beings are mortal.
  2. Sokrates is a human being.
  3. Therefore: Sokrates is mortal.[/url]
    The word “therefore” is usually either omitted or replaced by a symbol.

B.t.w.: Where is your nice sig?

Before I opened this thread I had to decide in which philosophical subforum it should be opened:

(A) Subforum „Philosophy“?
(B) Subforum „Science, Technology, and Math“?
(C) Subforum „Society, Government, and Economics“?
One of the main reasons why I decided to open this thread in the philosophical subforum „Philosophy“ was the syllogism and the logical implication, although I knew that on ILP they are not required, not necessary in order to make clear what the title of the thread and of the OP means: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

So when I wrote the syllogism and the logical implication into the OP, I did it nevertheless - and because of my decision for the subforum „Philosophy“.

[size=114]One of my favourite conversations in this thread:[/size]

I compliment Obe.

Here comes the 2nd interim balance sheet:

|Will machines completely replace all human beings?|
|
|_ Yes (by trend) | No (by trend) | Abstention ___|

||__ Arminius |__ Dan | Obe |
|
|
James S. Saint | Mr. Reasonable | Lev Muishkin |
|
|
__ Moreno |_ Fuse | Kriswest |
|
|
Amorphos | Esperanto | Mithus |
|
|
| Only Humean | Nano-Bug |
|
|
|_ Gib | Lizbethrose |
|
|
|Uccisore | Cassie |
|
|
|
Zinnat (Sanjay) | Tyler Durdon |
|
|
|____|__ Eric The Pipe __|

|[size=74]Sum:[/size]|_______ [size=150]4[/size] |_ [size=150]8[/size] _| [size=150]9[/size] ______|

There is a difference between this 2nd and the 1st balance sheet (=> #).

The argument is that the conversion will not be a black to white decision, but a slow, mostly unseen conversion that snowballs out of control and thus ends up even replacing those who could have made a different decision.

And the OP is actually an inference stated as an implication. The conclusion isn’t “the implication”, but rather the entire proposal is an implication. An exact syllogistic implication has no question to it. An inference basically means, “it seems like things point in this conclusion”. An exact implication means, “because of these known truths, this conclusion is necessarily true”.

The obvious intention was to discuss the inference of the premises; “Do cheaper things really always replace cheaper things in the long run?”, “Are machines really cheaper than people?”, “Might it all occur by accident?”, “Is it an insidious plot by an alien android race?”, “Are people just so damn dumb that they will die out and leave it all to machines?”…