Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

This film does not refer to the end of history. :cry: :blush:

Well, I agree that the end of history doesn’t necessitate the end of Man, but I don’t see how the end of Man couldn’t also mean the end of history.

I haven’t read Herr Nolte’s book but from what I’ve gleaned from the included quotes, haven’t these ideas, though more contemporary, already been expounded in principal by both Nietzsche and Spengler? The term “End of History” somewhat misleadingly is often used as defining the end of an epoch and not something relating to an actual end as in the Martian Chronicles where Earthlings redefine themselves as Martians because the earth no longer exists as habitable after a nuclear war.

Also, I appreciate the inclusion of the original German. The source is always best!

The end of development at all includes necessarily both the end of evolution and the end of history; the end of evolution includes necessarily the end of history; but the end of history does [size=120]not[/size] include the end of development or the end of evolution.

So your “end of man” includes the end of history, because the end of man means the end of the human evolution (which includes - of course - the end of history). History, as far as we know, is merely a human history or just a history of those humans who make and/or are involved in human history.

Examples of historical existentials again:

[size=120]• Religion (God/Gods, a.s.o);
• Rule (leadership, a.s.o.);
• Nobleness (nobility, a.s.o.);
• Classes;
• State;
• Great War;
• City and country as contrast;
• Education, especially in schools and universities;
• Science;
• Order of sexulality / demographics, economics;
• Historiography / awareness of history![/size]

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Yes, the source is always the best.

In my OP is said that Hegel was the first with the idea of the end of history:

And the universe won’t even blink an eye if it had any.

I think Oswald Spengler did a brilliant job articulating the end of Western civilization.

Arminius if you haven’t yet read his book Man And Technics. Brilliant articulations to be found there.

that will be very sad

Inevitable. All annihilation is.

Oh, thank you very much, Tyler. I have read all his books.

Superb writer.

Let’s get practical. Regardless of all the brilliant intellectuals declaiming on the matter, there is no “end of history” if we have to keep on asking the question. The words “End of History” is fallacious if it only sums up the end of an epoch. It’s like saying at the end of Götterdämmerung no one is left alive when it’s only the Gods who have left the scene whilst humans are forced to continue. The way EOH is here applied amounts to nothing more than a paragraph within history as a whole.

Yes, that’s right. Superb writer, superb thinker, a man of the facts who wrote down the historical facts in his books. Influenced by Heraklit, by Goethe, and by Nietzsche, he was a life philosopher, precisely a culture philosopher.

In his main work he said that he owed almost everything Goethe and Nietzsche:

„Zum Schlusse drängt es mich, noch einmal die Namen zu nennen, denen ich so gut wie alles verdanke: Goethe und Nietzsche. Von Goethe habe ich die Methode, von Nietzsche die Fragestellungen, und wenn ich mein Verhältnis zu diesem in eine Formel bringen soll, so darf ich sagen: ich habe aus seinem Augenblick einen Überblick gemacht. Goethe aber war in seiner ganzen Denkweise, ohne es zu wissen, ein Schüler von Leibniz gewesen.“ - Oswald A. G. Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1917, S. IX.
My translation:
„In conclusion, it urges me to once again give the names, which I owe almost everything: Goethe and Nietzsche. From Goethe I have the method, from Nietzsche the questions, and if I should bring my relationship with this in a formula so I can say I have made of his moment an overview. But Goethe in his whole way of thinking, without knowing it, had been a disciple of Leibniz.“ - Oswald A. G. Spengler, The Declinig of the West, 1917, p. IX.

Have you read all his books too, Tyler?

i have read Spengler yes. The issue here is the end of Western history and civilization , as we have learned it, a very Eurocentric view.We have the East arising, they are not at all involved with Western culture, they have everything to look forward to. The end of Western history, does not coincide with Eastern History, which is transcendental and timeless. So German idealism does not speak a universal language at present, it is a dated, neo-classical, romantic notion. It is a notion , which is a non affordable luxury.

So your answer is not an answer to the questions 1.), 2.), 2.1), 2.2), 2.3), but to the question: What do you think?

But your answer that there will be no end of history, but merely an end of an epoch can also be interpretated as a mostly “YES” to the question 1.), else as an answer to the question: What do you think?

I would like to get a more precise answer to one of the questions 1.), 2.), 2.1), 2.2), 2.3). Is that possible, Monad?

Yes, but to say it very precisely: in Spengler’s theory as well as in the German language there is a difference between “Kultur” (“culture” [“civiliation”]) and “Zivilisation” (“civilisation”) - b.t.w.: this difference has more or less disappeared in the English language. Unfortunately the German “Kultur” is often translated with both “culture” and “civilisation”, and merely “Zivilisation” is always “civilisation”. What you call “civilisation” is not always “Zivilisation” in German, but often “Kultur” and merely sometimes also “Zivilisation”. That is very important when it comes to understand a “Kulturphilosophie” (“culture philosophy” / “civilisation philosophy”).

According to Spengler the “Zivilisation” is a late part of the “Kultur”, and in the West this part began in the end of the 18th century or the beginning of the 19th century (b.t.w.: this is also the time when, according to Hegel, the history perhaps ended - but that is not important for the understanding of Spengler’s theory), and leads into a more and more non-historical time, a cultural / civilisational “winter”, a kind of senility. The West (“Abendland” = “Eveningland”) will reach this time of cultural / civilisational “winter” in the 21st, or the 22nd, or the 23rd century, approximately in the year 2200. When this time will be reached it will be possible that the end of history will also be reached because there will probably be no new “Kultur” anymore.

I’m European and very Eurocentric. I am not apologetic about this either.

This is a post of another thread:

Thank you, Obe.

Not all, some (including me) know quite enough about the U.S. situation. But the rulers in Europe don’t inform „their“ people, and most of the Europeans are not interested, because and although they are not informed by „their“ governments.

These „segments of the population“ are not a few, because, depending on the respectively definition of the word „classes“, the percentage of the population of both the middle and the lower class is generally more than 99%, and the percentage of the population of the middle class is generally about 50%, that of the upper middle class generally about 5%, so that generally about 94-99% of the U.S. population may be affected. Because of the fact that some people are more contended than other people, the percentage of discontended people is - for eaxmple - about 47-50%.

That’s not only a Freudian truth. :wink:

And Sweden „a good model“? Well, I doubt that.

If so, then - according to Hegel’s Dialektik - it will have to be a Synthesis of the Thesis „capitalism“ (especially successful in the 19th century) and the Antithesis „communism“ (especially successful in the 20th century). What can that kind of Synthesis be? Merely something like globalism or its contrary: localism / regionalism which will lead to the pre-historical times resembling post-historical times.

And before U.K. and U.S. came together (during the First World War), there was a deeply realtionship between Germany and U.S. :wink:

Maybe it will turn out well in the end, but can we be sure?

Idealism, right. And idealism is mostly German idealism. If the „new world order“ is really „as ideologically necessary in today’s world“, then this new world order can merely be - as I said - something like globalism or its contrary: localism / regionalism, which will lead to the pre-historical times resembling post-historical times.

What you are calling the „Hundred Years’ War“, „of ideological conflict“, is the epoch where egalitarianism (socialism, communism etc.) were stronger that liberalism (capitalism etc.) bcause it had undercut and threatened all liberalistic (capitaliistic) systems. But now we are living in a different epoch: capitalism is weak, communism is not as strong as in the last epoch, and globalism - as the Synthesis of capitalism and communism (cp. Hegel’s Dialektik) - is the strongest. That means that both capitalism and communism still exist, but as a mix in which capitalism dominates as a communism.

Referring to the fact that globalism is a Synthesis of capitalism (Thesis) and communism (Antithesis) the end of history will be reached when this Synthesis has changed to such a New Thesis whithout any historical existence. Merely something like globalism or its contrary: localism / regionalism, which will lead to the pre-historical times resembling post-historical times.

The current art shows also what globalism means (see above), so the current art is also enbedded in both capitalisms and communism, in Thesis and Antithesis of the Synthesis globalism. Nobody else than Oswald A. G. Spengler has so consequently and arrestingly shown how art works as a semiotic and/or linguistic indicator for historical phases of a culture / civilisation.

According to Schopenhauer in the face of the will as Kant’s „Ding an sich“ („thing in itself“) human beings are almost powerless, but amongst them the genies of the art, especially of the music, are able to conceive and represent the eternal ideas.

Thank you, Obe, for answering my question that I have asked on behalf of most Europeans.

Do you know both Huntington and Fukuyama?

According to Huntington history will not end in the next time beacuse there will be a clash of civilisations (cultures); according to Fukuyama history will end because the occidental civilisation (culture) has won.