zinnat13 wrote:Moving out from this cycle for ever is Nirvana/enlightenment.
And that is what I have been calling "Anentropic Harmony".
Moderator: Flannel Jesus
zinnat13 wrote:Moving out from this cycle for ever is Nirvana/enlightenment.
James S Saint wrote:zinnat13 wrote:Moving out from this cycle for ever is Nirvana/enlightenment.
And that is what I have been calling "Anentropic Harmony".
Arminius wrote:James S Saint wrote:zinnat13 wrote:Moving out from this cycle for ever is Nirvana/enlightenment.
And that is what I have been calling "Anentropic Harmony".
So for you "Anentropic Harmony" is "Nirvana"?
James S Saint wrote:Anentropic Harmony is the ultimate stage from which no one departs to become something different. In Buddhism and Hinduism, Nirvana is what they call the "ultimate stage". But their image of that ultimate stage is one of extreme peace with very little motion or activity. But in reality, peace is not an ultimate stage, merely the beginning of it, the "clearing of the field for the ultimate form to be built". Anentropic Harmony is a momentous harmony that occupies the prior stage of pure peace and thus becomes stable and eternal. Without the momentum, peace is not stable.
monad wrote:Being dead sounds like a close second but without the momentum.
James S Saint wrote:monad wrote:Being dead sounds like a close second but without the momentum.
"Why can't you kill Buddha?"
..because he is already dead.
Arminius wrote:James, you are saying that „existence is that which has affect“, and that in „reality, people are already using the word »exist« to mean this definition. They often never think about it, but in every case, the person really means that something having existence means that it has the potential to affect something; be seen, touched, smelled, or detected in some way even if not already detected.“. But one can doubt that „the person really means that something having existence means that it has the potential to affect something; be seen, touched, smelled, or detected in some way even if not already detected“, as you probably know. We just have to know more about the term „having affect“.
James S Saint wrote:Can you think of anything that you believe to exist and yet also believe has absolutely no affect upon anything?
James S Saint wrote:In RM:AO, it is merely a declared definition for what it means to physically exist, within the ontology. But in reality, I haven't found anything that didn't fit that definition anyway. But if someone wants to declare the existence of something that also has no affect upon anything, they are free to do so. They just can't declare it in RM:AO.
Arminius wrote:James S Saint wrote:Can you think of anything that you believe to exist and yet also believe has absolutely no affect upon anything?
Yes, I can think in that way,
Mithus wrote:Arminius, I'm trying to understand youArminius wrote:James S Saint wrote:Can you think of anything that you believe to exist and yet also believe has absolutely no affect upon anything?
Yes, I can think in that way,
Could you give one example for that?
If I understand you right, you mean the following: When people say that something exists, they mean, that they have the active part by perceiving that what exists with their senses. After James' ontology, waves of affectance come from the objects to affect them (the people), so that they can perceive the objects (that what exists). In that case the 'active part' comes- first- from the objects. Is that right?
If yes, why is it relevant for you who or what affects first who or what?
Or, in other words, does s.th. exist because I see it or because it can be seen by me?
I think in commom usage of the word 'exist' people don't really see a difference in that.
Mithus wrote:Still I would like to have an example for s.th. what you believe that exist but doesn't affect you or anything at all, because I cannot think this way.
Arminius wrote:James S Saint wrote:Can you think of anything that you believe to exist and yet also believe has absolutely no affect upon anything?
Yes, I can think in that way. The "potential to affect something" and the fact to "be seen, touched, smelled, or detected in some way even if not already detected" are perhaps not the same thing
Arminius wrote:or, if they are the same thing, perceived differently because there are - for example - different observers, and there is the problem of the subject/object dualism.
Arminius wrote:You are saying that existence is that which has affect. But do all people really use the words "exist" and "existence" as you use them?
Arminius wrote:And if so, what or who ist the one which or who affects what or whom?
Arminius wrote:What or who is the first one?
Arminius wrote:Does a "affectless affect" exist?
Arminius wrote:Is this so called "affectless affect" similar to the so called "unmoved mover"?
Arminius wrote:Different cultures/civilisations interpret or even construe the reality in a different way than other cultures/civilisations.
Arminius wrote:Does nothingness or nonentity have any affect?
Arminius wrote:What about the "nirvana"? What do you think about the "nirvana"? And probably in contrast: what does Zinnat think about the "nirvana"? What do you think about Zinnat's thinking about the "nirvana"? .... And so on ....
Arminius wrote:Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz once asked:Do you know the answer?
"Warum ist überhaupt Seiendes und nicht vielmehr Nichts?"
("Why is there anything [being] at all rather than nothing[ness]?")
("Seiendes" is derived from "sein" ["to be"] and means an identical mode of "being".)
Arminius wrote:Or think about the Indian culture/civilisation - the so called "Hinduism" (b.t.w.: I think it is more than merely „Hinduism“) - and its concept of "nirvana". Do you exactly know what is meant by that? Non-Indian and Indian people have a different understanding of "nirvana". Is it nothingness, nonentity? (That is the way how Western people understand "nirvana".) What is it?
Arminius wrote:Are "affectance" and nothingness perhaps the same?
Arminius wrote:And do you always think that there is "affectance" everywhere and nothing else? Do you really always think that?
Arminius wrote:What do you think when you are anxious and don't know the reason - the cause - for that fact? What or who "affects" you then? Is it the nothingness? And if so, then the nothingness also "affects", but is it then really nothingness?
Arminius wrote:We can think the nothingness and the difference between subject and object. Is this difference the nothingness? Or is it even the "affectance"? Or both? Are they the same (see above) or at least similar?
Arminius wrote:You can't just brush aside our ability for thinking the nothingness and the subject/object dualism.
Arminius wrote:So James' "RM:AO" has an objective character; the terms "rational metaphysics" and "affectance ontology" claim to be objective, and they are objective. But what about James himself? Is he a part of that objective issue? Is he not present when he argues objectively? And what about the nothingness?
James S Saint wrote:Can you give an example of something that exists, yet has absolutely no affect on anything? Name something for me.
James S Saint wrote:So do you believe that a box only exists when it is being observed?
James S Saint wrote:A "declared definition" means that in this ontology (RM:AO), the word is going to mean what it is defined as. Other people can use that same word in many other ways. But in RM:AO, any time the word "exist" is used, it means "having affect".
James S Saint wrote:Which came first and which affects which, are separate details from the issue of what it means to exist within the ontology.
James S Saint wrote:"Absolute nothingness" is the "lack of affect".
Arminius wrote:James S Saint wrote:Can you give an example of something that exists, yet has absolutely no affect on anything? Name something for me.
Yes I can, provided that you agree to my thesis that our thoughts exist and especially the nothingness exists as well - exists without "having affect" of course () -, but I know that you don't agree to that thesis because you are saying that "exist" means "having affect", so that "existence" is "affectance". Would you agree to the thesis, that other people don't agree to your definition of "existence" as "affectance"?
Arminius wrote:Nothingness has no affect, but exists,
Arminius wrote:at least in our thoughts, and our thoughts exist as well.
Arminius wrote: if your definition is right, then you have to exclude nothingness from your definition of "existence".
Arminius wrote:James S Saint wrote:So do you believe that a box only exists when it is being observed?
I don't believe that but I also don't deny that it is possible.
Arminius wrote: If someone believes that, I would not say that it is absolutely wrong to believe that. Remember that we are philophising, and the philosophy has not resolved the problem of the subject/object dualism. The science can't resolve it anyway, and I think the philosophy probably neither.
Don't get me wrong because I don't think that your ontology is false, but you have to admit that it depends on your definition of "existence".
Arminius wrote:Does God exist? Does the unmoved mover exist? Does the unaffected affect exist?
Arminius wrote:James S Saint wrote:"Absolute nothingness" is the "lack of affect".
It is possible that the nothingness is God, or the unmoved mover, or the unaffected affect!
James S Saint wrote:Arminius wrote:Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz once asked:Do you know the answer?
"Warum ist überhaupt Seiendes und nicht vielmehr Nichts?"
("Why is there anything [being] at all rather than nothing[ness]?")
("Seiendes" is derived from "sein" ["to be"] and means an identical mode of "being".)
Yes.
It is mathematically impossible for absolute zero affect to be a state or condition at any time, in any place.
James S Saint wrote:Arminius wrote:Are "affectance" and nothingness perhaps the same?
They are exact opposite. Affectance is the lack of nothingness and Nothingness is the lack of affectance.
James S Saint wrote:The thought of nothingness, is not nothingness.
James S Saint wrote:Arminius wrote:We can think the nothingness and the difference between subject and object. Is this difference the nothingness? Or is it even the "affectance"? Or both? Are they the same (see above) or at least similar?
I don't understand what is being asked.
James S Saint wrote:Arminius wrote:So James' "RM:AO" has an objective character; the terms "rational metaphysics" and "affectance ontology" claim to be objective, and they are objective. But what about James himself? Is he a part of that objective issue? Is he not present when he argues objectively? And what about the nothingness?
Again, what is the relevance? Define "objective" and you have your answer.
RM:AO doesn't bother with declaring "objective" versus "subjective". It's not relevant until someone gets confused. And frankly, it is a bit like asking if "RM:AO is red, blue, or is it colorless? And if it is colorless, how can we see it or know that it exists?"
Mithus wrote:Can you really think of nothingness? Even the thought of nothingness requires an imagination of nothingness. Is it black, bright, colourless? Doesn't it have to be limited by "something". Can you have a thought without an imagination how it looks, smells, tastes, feels...? And as soon as you have an imagination, it affects you, it is not nothing anymore. Nothingness is just a word.
Could I have another example?
James S Saint wrote:Arminius wrote:Nothingness has no affect, but exists,
No. It doesn't exist.
James S Saint wrote:This is an issue of the ontology called "Solipsism", not RM:AO.
James S Saint wrote:Every understanding (ontology) depends on its definition of existence. You can't have an ontology without its definition of existence. It wouldn't be an ontology without one.
James S Saint wrote:Define "God".
The "unmoved mover" is a Situation that does not change yet causes change. Specifically, it is the situation of an affect attempting to reach infinity. Or it can be said to the a Fact, specifically, the fact that infinity cannot be reached. In either case, situation or fact, the propagation of an affect changes because of it.
Arminius wrote:The question was not meant mathematically. Leibniz, the founder of the infinitesimal calculus and e.g. of the first calculating machine, was one of the greatest mathematician (the greatest: Carl Friedrich Gauß ), technician, and philosopher, so his question was not meant mathematically, but philospophically, theologically.
Arminius wrote:James, I know your "RM:AO", thus I also know that according to RM:AO "affectance" and nothingness are exact the opposite. So my questions are not always questions of understanding "RM:AO".
???Arminius wrote:There is an unknown or undefined difference and there is an unknown or undefined nothingness. If we don't know much about the difference and about the nothimgness, then one can ask whether they are the same or not.
Arminius wrote:James S Saint wrote:Arminius wrote:So James' "RM:AO" has an objective character; the terms "rational metaphysics" and "affectance ontology" claim to be objective, and they are objective. But what about James himself? Is he a part of that objective issue? Is he not present when he argues objectively? And what about the nothingness?
Again, what is the relevance? Define "objective" and you have your answer.
RM:AO doesn't bother with declaring "objective" versus "subjective". It's not relevant until someone gets confused. And frankly, it is a bit like asking if "RM:AO is red, blue, or is it colorless? And if it is colorless, how can we see it or know that it exists?"
No. You and your ontology are not the same. In any case defining "objective" is not enough.
objective (əbˈdʒɛktɪv)
adj
1. (Philosophy) existing independently of perception or an individual's conceptions:
Arminius wrote:Does God exist? Does the unmoved mover exist? Does an unaffected affect exist?
James S Saint wrote:The "unmoved mover" is a Situation that does not change yet causes change. Specifically, it is the situation of an affect attempting to reach infinity. Or it can be said to the a Fact, specifically, the fact that infinity cannot be reached. In either case, situation or fact, the propagation of an affect changes because of it.
Arminius wrote:James S Saint wrote:This is an issue of the ontology called "Solipsism", not RM:AO.
Yes, and ...?
Arminius wrote:James S Saint wrote:Every understanding (ontology) depends on its definition of existence. You can't have an ontology without its definition of existence. It wouldn't be an ontology without one.
That was not what I was saying. I was saying that YOUR ontology depends on YOUR definition of "existence". The accent is on the word "your".
James S Saint wrote:You don't need RM:AO to know that affectance is the opposite of nothingness, or perhaps better said as "the lack of nothingness".
Mithus wrote:@ Arminius
"NOTHINGNESS"
Farlex Free Dictionary: „The condition or quality of being nothing; nonexistence.“
Merriam-Webster: „The quality or state of being nothing,as
a) NONEXISTENCE
b) utter insignificance
c) Death
Oxford Dictionary: " The absence or cessation of life or existence
Dictionary.com: a) the state of being nothing
b) something that is nonexistent
c) lack of being, nonexistence
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