GOD=NATURE

No, I don’t see what you say as wrong. It’s just incomplete for me; maybe not for you.

hey I think it is incomplete…it is a work that is not finished…and since it is not finished…how can we know for sure…we then must say…I don’t know god

Sure, and if I say

DRAGONS = NATURE

That proves dragons exists, because nature obviously exists, right?

I’m really tired of addressing this particular argument, figure it out yourself.

you are tired of the argument because you have nothing to say…you just don’t get what I am saying or you haven’t followed this thread
I am redefining god so that the atheist-theist debate can turn into a discussion…

You don’t get my point at all. Concepts like “God” and “Dragon” are too deeply embedded in minds of most people to change their definitions now.

No matter how you try to redefine it, when you say “God” people will always think of an incredibly powerful and intelligent being that created the universe, they will NOT think of nature. You’re just bringing further confusion to the discussion.

Just like it doesn’t matter if you try to redefine the word “Dragon”, as people have already learned to think of a flying, fire-breathing reptile (or the Chinese version), NOT nature.

Stop trying to change the definitions of old words, it’s not going to happen, if you have a new concept, express it with a new word.

The LAST thing the theist-atheist debate needs is more confusion.

very good points…this will not be easy…but we must redefine a lot of things…this will clear up confusion…
people have used the word god for centuries to mean what we don’t know and try to control it…
so we do not know about the origin of the universe but we are working on it…it is a work in progress…it is part of the naturegod…
atheists need to hold on to attacking the persongod…they are not attacking what people are doing to each other…
we need to talk about secular humanism as being part of our nature …part of the naturegod…you still don’t get it…
I want to redefine the word god…I want an agnostic god plus nature…we already know some about nature…
people want to hold on to the persongod as the authority…I don’t like this…it is their heroin…it is not easy to give up an opiate…

Our minds gravitate from the known into the unknown. It is this unknown that appears to be the problem here. Anyone can guess what the unknown entails. Science offers possibilities. Are you saying religion does not?

religion does…but religion means a lot of different ideas…some are hateful…some create false hopes in people…
I see a lot of my fellow church people worshipping and praying to god but they totally forget the golden rule…
they focus on control of god to get good and avoid bad…they think they can do it without doing the ground work…
I just don’t like those people that think they are superior beings because they believe in god…
homosexual problems in the church are causing serious problems for people…is having sex with someone of the same sex a sin…
what kind of a sin…how serious…maybe you would not get into heaven…or maybe hell is the place for you…

I lost a daughter over the argument about homosexuality. She said it was sin. I said it was a genetic fluke. I accused her of homophobia. She chose to delete me from her life. So, yes, I understand religious arrogance and also dislike it.

I just saw a video on twitter by kristy tv… interview with a gay man with a strong religious family…very moving

I agree with that, but what you want to do seems like trying to “cheat” them out of believing in God by just redefining the word. As I said, I don’t think it’s the best way to do it.

IMO this world needs more honesty and a direct approach to such issues, not a new definition of an already abstract concept.

you may be right…I agree that we need honesty and integrity and kindness…I am not attacking those persons believing in a persongod…
they can do what they want …I am proposing that we pay attention to nature as the way to go…we need to pay more attention to the golden rule…
actually I am for secular humanism in a church setting without the persongod…I want reformation of the church…not doing away with it…

I agree with that completely, but let’s just call it nature then.

It seems to me like you want a church without everything that makes church a church. Aka, that you want something else that is in fact not a church.

that’s the problem atheris…we keep thinking of church in a certain way…but the present church has been adulterated…it needs reform…
the early followers of jesus didn’t have a church…and I see jesus as a human not as a god…the church is praying and worshipping but nothing is changed…in fact things are worse…so what to do…well maybe we have to get together and solve some of the problems ourselves…

That is because they are not actually praying. They were led into believing that “praying” means “reverently begging for favors”. That is not what it ever meant. That is a worship of demonic magic, “Devil worship”.

To pray means to reverently seek. To “pray to God” means to seek of the fundamental cause(s) of all things. That is what an honest scientist does. That is what monks do. To speak a prayer out loud is to express one’s concerns to the public so that others might be able to help (as well as internal communication needs inside their head, much like talking to yourself). That is what an honest scientist does when he publishes his hypotheses.

So a great many things are changing. The problem is that the churches are “praying” in the wrong way because those with the ability to deceive, did so (hundreds of years ago). And the first thing such deceivers ALWAYS strive for, is to get the deceived to NOT seek of the truth (actually pray), but fantasize that someone will magically save them, exactly what the Devil offered in the beginning, “worship me (deception) and you can gain anything you want. You can be God!” - through the use of deception; aka Mainstream Media, Money, and Medications.

Those who are praying to/of Reality, are making huge progress called “technology”. But that doesn’t mean that they are using it prayfully. Once they get it, they lust to use it for power, to be God so that you will have to pray to THEM.

What would it take to reform the churches? You can’t just be rid of an opiate without replacing it with something more powerful.

how about not using money and returning to the real human jesus…

Well, please realize that I am a little complicated from your perspective, although simple in the long run.

My solution for;
Philosophy (and thus all thought) is RM - Rational Metaphysics
Physics (and thus all physical interaction) is AO - Affectance Ontology
Psychology (and thus all human behavior) is PHTMOT - Perception of Hopes and Threat, Memory, Ontology, and Time,
Sociology (an thus all governance and religion) is SAM - Social Anentropic Molecularisation,
Economics (and thus all money and trade issues) is IJOT DJ - Integral of Joy Over Time and a Dairy of Joy.

I instilled SAM into a church once a few years back, unfortunately the church was already on the edge of bankruptcy and didn’t really have a good leadership sufficient for a good SAM prototype. But in the short time it had, it resolved every problem they presented to it. From their perspective, it worked “miracles” by resolving what they worried about most (they just didn’t know what problems they had to worry about most - yet).

SAM is very patient and tolerant. It doesn’t care who or what you worship as long as you do it properly (meaning in the SAM way). In the long run you will learn. SAM removes deception from the mind and world of Man - through time. But until you can witness a good prototype, it takes too much explanation to feel confident about it. Once witnessed, it is pretty simple and easily empirical.

so james you are talking about a rational realistic approach to everything…why so many fancy words

Umm… which words would those be?

… and probably just to impress the chicks. 8-[