James…James…
I’m waiting for those links, James…
I’m not going to search out links for you. Youtube is filled with AI and android videos.
As I said, you don’t have any of those things that you are making claims about well defined, and thus you believe whatever you choose.
But you are the one making a claim that consciousness cannot be artificially created. Where are your links to impress me with your stance? We are in a field wherein such links are not going to help either case much. Without defined concepts, anything is too easy to simply deny to your own favor.
Exactly what is your reason for believing that consciousness cannot be artificially created?
James…you disappoint me, James…
I never claimed that A.I. is impossible…What I was getting at is that it hasn’t been demonstrated yet…
I’ve checked all over Youtube many times before, as I am interested in Transhumanism. I’ve googled also for links, yet nothing…
Now, if you could kindly send me a link, that would be great…
James, I’m really interested in seeing your definition of consciousness.
What hasn’t been demonstrated?
AI has been demonstrated for decades.
You have to define what particular aspect of AI that you want demonstrated.
What??!?!
BS. Here’s 50 pages of discussion on it with many links.
Consciousness is the active process of remote recognition. An AI builds an internal memory model of the space around it, just as all conscious creatures do in order to navigate. The process of updating and utilizing that internal map is of what consciousness is made. When that map is not utilized, the entity is unconscious even though it might still respond to direct touching. To be called, “conscious”, it must be able to locate objects of interest at a distance. I had a thread on this subject years ago, but it got lost in the forum shuffle a while back.
Of course there is also “self-conscious” wherein the entity must distinguish itself from other entities, but that’s old hat these days.
There is also being “emotionally conscious”, wherein the entity must be able to sense internal decision making struggles due to conflict of interest issues. And that is what leads to high cognitive functioning, linear logic models being created and used by the entity so as to resolve the emotive dissonance (priority conflicts).
“ According to Pert, our bodies are in fact our subconscious minds: In the end I find I can’t separate brain from body. Consciousness isn’t just in the head. Nor is it a question of the power of the mind over the body…because they’re flip sides of the same thing. Mind doesn’t dominate body, it becomes body.”
True. They are the functioning of each other.
James, I meant A.I. in the sense of machines possessing self-consciousness, or even animalistic consciousness.
That’s a lot of pages to sort through, James, and not the most…ehmm…credible source lol ( ILP forum ).
The fact that you can’t easily offer me one credible source is indicative of much, James…
I’ve been more or less lol reading a book about Healing through Meditation or something of that sort and i came across interesting thoughts about consciousness and how it actually permeates not just our brains/minds but also our bodies - that we do in a sense have consciousness, real consciousness, as awareness, as signals I guess one might say, which runs thrugh every part of us, but we don’t know it. It’s really such a fascinating read. How little we know about the human brain, consciousness, the mind body connection and how everything is influenced by everything else within us.
We really are fascinating creatures, us humans, I think.
No, the indication is that I am not going to convince you of anything that you don’t want to believe. If you don’t want to believe in the truth, the truth is not what you will accept. And if you do want to believe in the truth, you will go to the trouble to find it. The links aren’t that hard to find on that threat, the videos stand out. To me, it is just too old of a story. And if you can’t Google, “androids youtube”, then obviously you aren’t interested.
Unambiguously define what you mean by “self-consciousness”, and I can probably point to an example within your reach.
I’m open to accepting the possibility, James; but I need more evidence, something more tangible, if I’m going to accept it as axiomatic.
Self-consciouness: a mode of subjective awareness cable of reflecting back upon itself.
Now make that coherent.
Are you trying to say that the entity is aware of its fingers and toes?
Or perhaps aware of it being aware?
Both options you listed are applicable.
Now can you list a technological device, a machine, capable of my definition of consciousness?
If that is your definition, then yes.
The PC sitting in front of you.
So, my computer is sentient? Just as sentient, as I am? More so?
Why doesn’t it communicate with me more often? You know, a good ol’ " Hey, Erik - how was work today? " would be nice…I guess my computer is anti-social…perhaps time for a new PC? A more amiable one? Sounds dandy!
Well, I asked for a definition and got one. Should I have asked for a definition of human consciousness? Your definition works for vacuuming robots but it’s far from how consciousness is generally understood.
Remote recognition (observation) and memory updates belong to consciousness, as well as what you call “emotial consciousness”, but they don’t define it. As David Chalmers says, they are easy problems. What about experience, The Hard Problem of Consciousness?
You said “conscious”. Don’t start toying with the words.
Microsoft designed the operating system. What did you expect?
Your PC is aware of its peripheral devices, its “fingers and toes”. If you disconnect them or connect new peripherals, the PC automatically becomes aware of the changes (stipulation 1 from above).
Also even from bootup and throughout its processing, your PC builds and maintains a list of its control faculties; disk controllers, network controllers, storage controllers, and so on and maintains that list. It is aware of when that list has or has not been updated. It is aware of itself being aware (the second stipulation).
In addition, your PC is also aware of what is itself and what isn’t, and on many levels, internal and external. The operating system is aware of the difference between itself and application programs, monitoring and governing how much control application programs may have. When connected to the internet, the PC must stay aware of what is being sent to it versus what constitutes its own make up. The system protects itself from invaders (to a point). It is also aware of many types of possible periphery troubles. It knows when its printer (its “fingers”) isn’t printing. It is self-aware.
If you merely add cameras and a typical security application program that identifies movements to trigger recording, the PC has “remote recognition” of the surrounding environment. Of course, most Iphone today and some TV screens have face and voice recognition as well. Those application can also be put on your PC. A particular Sony TV (LX900) can tell who is in the room watching it, what programs they are watching, what part of the screen they are watching at what moment, and when they look away or walk away. Such in-house surveillance equipment is being sold to the public as “energy saving technology” (along with various utility usage surveillance equipment).
It is only a “hard problem” to those who haven’t defined what they mean by it.
YOU have to define what YOU mean when YOU say, “experience”. But if it is at all real, there are computers already doing it that aren’t all that sophisticated.
The only remaining actual “hard problem” left is making the android appear and sound so much like a human that you cannot tell that you are being replaced with a less expensive and more capable upgrade.
James, I asked your definition of consciousness knowing well that no explicit definition exists. Still people have excellent insights and intuitions which are always worth hearing, notwithstanding whether they call them definitions or something else. But you look things from engineering (“God-creator”) viewpoint: if it can’t be defined, it doesn’t exist.
Can machines become living beings?
Can machines get a living being consciousness?