As consumers, are we able to make the distinction between natural and unnatural hungers?
Depends upon health and upbringing
Even conservative “Christians” are opposed to socialized medicine or universal health care. Since their opinion is a majority one in the US, little will be done to insure proper health for those considered undeserving of help. The wealthy can afford the best health care money can buy. The poor cannot. It’s economic eugenics. Let the weak die off so that only the strong survive.
The argument for feeding and taking care of the poor as a problem of overpopulation is lame. We have yet to farm the oceans. We can, with greenhouses. grow food in arid land. There are so many things we could do to make the life experience beneficial to all; but we choose not to do it because of the lie that helping others somehow is a deficit of our own sense of entitlement.
Search your heart. What do you really think/feel about the poor in America? I am one. But what I have is more than a majority of humans have. What, if anything, do we owe to each other?
Define poor, by your standards, Ierrellus, without giving away your life.
You don’t live out in the street, as far as I know. Do you go hungry everyday? Is your apartment (if you do not live out in the street) warm enough for you to be content?
Is your perspective one of having more than enough or of having enough or never enough?
You compare yourself to the poor in America – relative to whom?
I don’t care that you disagree. You disagreeing means nothing to me. You’re telling me that if everything was free, as in, you would still have personal belongings to make your own and give your unique touches to, but could get anything you wanted from a store for free, while being able to expect that what you made your own would not be stolen since everyone else would be able to do the same, that you would not choose to work for free if it were impressed upon you that certain jobs needed to be performed for you to keep having those free things? Keep in mind that such things do not last forever and eventually new ones would have to be made through production and manufacturing. Not to mention the jobs of cleaning up garbage, clearing septic systems, etc. Even if everyone went to college and received degrees of their education, those jobs would still need to be done.
At the point of you saying ‘no, I would not work for free to have free things and I perceive myself to be too good for those jobs,’ then you leave it open for others to say those things as well and create the same selfish system that we have now. At the point of saying that you disagree, all it really means is that you have not thought it out well at all and gave a customary and usual response; in bullshit fashion and thus causing me to eat more feces whether it is my choice to or not; and therefore anything you say after such a point of reasonable conjecture is lacking reason and sense, thus discrediting anything you might say of actual value.
Now, you want to say that if I eat feces and drink urine that it is all on me. Now, that was a metaphorical statement on my behalf and not a literal one, which you knew full-well before responding in the dismissive manner that you did. However, it is not all on me. I take my fair share of the responsibility and avoid it as much as possible, but it so widespread throughout society that even you, here and in this place, can not avoid serving me up shit on a platter for my mornings consumption as I digest it and seek to find a more suitable means of response other than of agitation, which I have done. So, my response is on me, since my most usual response to such bullshit is to give vehemence and such dismissive attitude in return; to act as a mirror of your own reaction. But, my response is still dictated somewhat by what I am given to digest and feed upon.
It is not my fault that I came here to discuss philosophy seriously and intelligently since that is what interests me in life. In fact, even while I take responsibility for that, it is not a bad thing and does not denote that I should be given such shit to sate my palate. It is similarly not my fault that you took my response as shallow and responded to it as you did, thus giving me the shit to sate my palate, which sate it did not. It is similarly not my priority to stop coming here nor to stop discussing philosophy or life itself, nor to stop putting on the table reasonable and sensible methods of solving societal concerns with actual things people could agree to if freed from the unreasonable and nonsensical viewpoints thus imported to them by society.
In fact, it is more your fault, in this instance, that I am given such shit to feast upon and I do hope you take your own medicine and advice and take your share of the responsibility, for I gave you something better to eat than you gave to me.
You once told me to work within this decadent system to fix it and I once told you that that’s exactly what I was doing. You meant for me to get into politics, etc. and to actually make a difference along those terms and yet I am already part of the system as a conscientious and informed citizen; from birth I am enslaved to this system while told that I am free and the system has done little to actually take care of me. No, it has come down to the kindness of rare individuals that I am really coming to appreciate that gets me through most days. Since I am still a part of this system, regardless of choice, I have been working within it to make changes and fixes, yet what I meant at the point of that response was that I was working within the mental aspect of the system, which is also true.
I don’t respect you as a philosopher nor do I respect the things that you have said or responded to me with, for they lack understanding and they lack so much more than mere understanding.
For me being homeless and without a job, I am richer than you; I have more things that can not be taken away and I will shred every single bit of every faulty argument that crosses my path in the pursuit of my goals to create a better world for future generations before I die, just to give my pain and suffering a reason for being, to have pushed me into a state of wisdom and sense to actually pay attention and listen to people instead of being just like everyone else.
I would still rather be a nothing than a piece-of-shit something.
Reminds me of the chorus of an old song … something to the effect …"Freedom’s just another word for “nothing left to lose”
I’m statistically poor. Otherwise, I have enough–decent, warm apartment, good food. Meanwhile there are people in our city who are homeless. I have much to be thankful for. So how does one decide what is more than enough?
“I’m just a soul whose intentions are good.
Oh Lord, don’t let me be misunderstood.”–Eric Burden
I have plenty left to lose, but plenty more to gain through freedom. Freedom is more than just having nothing left to lose. It’s looking at the world around you and how bullshit it is and deciding, ‘you know what, I may not benefit from this, but if I can succeed, at least future generations can have better than I did and hopefully will be more appreciative for it if I truly do succeed.’
It’s something to gain for more than just myself, which is the appeal to me. I didn’t drag myself out of my darkened days for just myself, that would have been pointless, though I had to do it for myself to better be able to help others and the world around me. I did it for non-selfish means.
Of course charity begins at home. You have to take care of your own needs before you can tend to those of anyone else.
Consumerism does not teach this; it depends on the bloating of your hungers in order to sell products you often do not need.
I’m reminded of the 1980s when kids demanded expensive designer jeans and tennis shoes in order to fit in with their peers. Our family couldn’t afford that, so my wife ran up all credit cards out of peer pressure. The 80s reversed the 60s where individual expression determined what was bought. I don’t know where minds are in century 21, except that consumerism still reigns supreme, that is taught hunger trumps actual hunger.
Ierrellus,
Good question, Ierrellus.
The way I look at it, by taking an honest, in-depth look at the way other people live. We have to really “see” others, experience them. For instance, families living out in the street, and “feeling” and comparing their human experience to our own. Of course, I think it takes a sense of appreciation and gratitude for what we have. I don’t really see a whole lot of that these days. The more we have, the more we want.
Their seems to be such a “hunger” out there for things because of the inner hungers which aren’t satisfied or which were not often satisfied, because of the human fear which people experience and which they try to stifle and suppress with “things”.
I think that it is human consciousness and fairness (compassion and empathy for those who do not have) which can also decide what is more than enough. Our human intuition can tell us this but we have to be willing to first “see” it then to affirm it. But gratitude I think is the “missing link” here. We’re not often grateful because we are just not capable of seeing what holds “real” meaning in our lives.
Yes, it is a decision to “see” that we have more than enough, to voice that to ourselves, but the decision can only be made through conscious self-awareness and of those around us who have much less.
Maybe it’s akin to pain. Some have a greater threshhold (sp) for pain than others - perhaps some have a greater threshhold for living with less - and it being MORE THAN ENOUGH. It’s like the Charlie Brown christmas tree for me - simplicity in something is a beautiful thing - it’s in the eye of the beholder - sometimes less is more in a way I can’t quite figure out.
I also have a sense that when we can live with less we appreciate it more. Can we stuff and stuff and stuff our faces with good food and appreciate that more or less than when we eat more of what is good but eat it slowly and be more discriminate about what we’re eating? okay, I’m getting carried away here.
We need to learn to be more epicurean when it comes to everyting and I sense that having less allows us a better appreciate for what we do have but that’s just me.
I actually had and still have quite a bit to lose. When I first started down this path, I knew the Devil’s game already; I already knew the family member against family member, the friend against friend. Even closer to our perceived reality, I already knew that what I was getting myself into on the internet was attracting attention from various agencies around the world, both government and secret and I knew that they wouldn’t hesitate to make me ‘vanish’, if they thought they could, that they would seek to rip me away from those who loved me, ruin my life, drive me into homelessness and drive me into reacting in ways that would make people stop caring about me or to drop communication with me.
I knew that by making the choices I was making that I was putting my family and friends at risk just the same as myself and made my decision anyway. I live everyday of my life with the knowledge that the woman that I love; that I am en route to go sweep off her feet if I can, is in more danger than any other person I could ever care about or love because of my infatuation and my enemies.
And, I kept myself. I kept contact with people, I still have people that care about me and miss me and it becomes too widespread for these agencies to actually do what they want to do since enough people care about those people and would miss them, too, that it becomes too much clean-up to do and they’re not ready to play openly like that, at least not yet.
And then there’s you all, here, that I keep in contact with while homeless and recount my experiences with and who I continue conversations with as if my life hasn’t changed all that much and just taken on a fresh path; I made it align; and don’t think that wasn’t without intent on my part.
You all sit here, watching me go through life; through hardship; and not raising a finger to help. Not to judge, I didn’t ask any of you for help and I don’t intend to start. You also haven’t hindered my progress and I look at that; it’s not your responsibility to help me, either. But the fact remains that you sit here and watch and pay attention to more than most of you will admit to; not just to this message board, but to life in general, though certainly some members here do pay more attention to certain members and threads than they care to admit. Regardless, it keeps a line of communication open and steady enough to where if anything happened to me, you’d know about it. Whether friend or enemy, it would alert you that something happened. Either I died on the road in the cold or in nature due to some wild animal or some random thug, which is entirely possible but I also seem capable of handling myself through such situations already, or what you fear more actually happened, and I got wiped out for running my mouth against a system that hates to have loose lips around or loose ends flapping in the breeze. And, it chafes them.
I have more to lose than any person here, because I understand the gravity of my plight and appreciate all of the good given to me in my life to the fullest, more than any person here can truly understand. I’ve already lost everything, even the things I don’t have, yet; at least in vision and emotion and feeling. Something tried to kill me all away and failed substantially in the past year and a half; or multiple somethings, which is far more likely.
Also, in response to the question even though it wasn’t asked of me; when you react naturally to something in a violent seeming manner, then you know when it is more than enough. If you had ever been in such a situation where something has been more than you can handle without resorting to anger, impatience and violence, you wouldn’t even have to ask the question. If you’ve ever even pushed someone else to a breaking point or been there your self, you wouldn’t have to ask the question.
And, we only truly appreciate things more when we live with less because we have to. People today live in such excess that they lost sight of what it was like just 130 years ago. I just read a book about Butch Cassidy last night that highlighted some of the differences in what people go through then and now. They didn’t even truly know that what they had was less and lived off the land to an extent; weren’t afraid to go hungry or possibly freeze to death or get a bullet; at least not the people who had yet to be conformed by society into false living.
Realistically, when you have to live with less while so many others have more, or when you know you could have more, it does make you appreciate the more more, but then you realize that you’re not even living bare minimum like people did 130 years ago and nobody truly is living with bare minimum and yet everyone is ‘making only enough to make ends meet’ because of what they choose to spend their money on, bills, etc. That makes me appreciate it more coupled with the fact that I have to do without the luxuries that I should have based on the resources available to the world at large. I should have the same things as everyone else, regardless of my appreciation for them.
And when you realize that appreciating things better does give better life satisfaction, you also realize that others don’t truly appreciate what they have and the only way to share your brand of wealth is to take it all away.
At least, that’s what I’ve, personally, come to realize. And, when you already appreciate life better than other people, even in luxury, you begin to get a little bit too angry enough to burst out of being angry to become calculating, instead, and thoughtful. And, if you have half a brain, you put off a cheery air, seem simple and stupid enough; maybe crazy; until the actual action begins to hit and then you become as dangerous as you actually are, and surprise the people who sorely underestimated you and that’s what makes you more than dangerous; it makes you perilous.
Also, that deep appreciation of life and what exactly it is that you stand to lose, makes you lot more dangerous than your average idiot when you use your intellect correctly; and infinitely more dangerous than any evil thing could be. It’s what makes legends like The Lord of the Rings and Aragorn seem perfectly plausible; that one man can be worth the weight of thousands of warriors in battle; that just by name alone, can be feared more than the might of an army. One man.
Phred is such a Jesus, and Kris is such a Jew.
From “Bear Creek 1998”
The best way to stop a revolution
Is to put it up for sale.
The market place solution
Is that fads will never fail
To bring in the customers daily
To buy what they cannot do
While the video, voyeur security
Sucks the life right out of you.
This is what happened to the youth movements of the 1960s. It’s also what century 21 is all about in the USA.
“Buying and spending, we lay waste our powers;
Little we see in Nature that is ours.”–Wordsworth
Without a sense of being part of Nature, we are imprisoned in our heads. Commerce gives us that sense of belonging by having, not by being. It is no wonder that lust for having creates have nots.
I admit I’m an old hippie. But I haven’t seen here in the USA a better, or even an equal, sense of brotherhood than that expressed by the young people of the 60s. Consumerism dulls all ideals eventually. It is taught hunger that fits the ego better than natural hunger.
The wealth disparity now in the USA is 98 % poor, 2% wealthy. Doesn’t that prove there is something wrong with a system that allows this to happen?
“98% poor, 2% wealthy” - really?
Yes. This amount of income inequality has not been experienced for 100 years.
Well, you can draw the line wherever you want so you can get practically any number … 98%, 50%, 15%.
But by saying that 98% of the US is poor, you lose all credibility because even a cursory investigation shows that much more than 2% of the population is well-off and comfortable.
Also : Poor is the US is much different than poor in Bangladesh.