Plans for a religion

Yes, indeed. I totally agree. I would not use the word “greed” then. But you are right.

That is the question.

When I was talking about “greed”, I did not value that (I am very much an objectivist), but meant it as a fact. And it is just this fact why there is this “enormous and perhaps impossible task” that you mentioned obove.

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I didn’t know … guess that terminates this e-exchange … I am very much a subjectivist whatever that means. :slight_smile:

Why?

We all are subjective anyway (but that does of course not necessarily mean that we all are subjectivists). So when I say “I am an objectivist”, I just mean that the objective part of my inner subjective/objective dualism is above average (whatever that means :slight_smile: ).

From my experience objectivists and subjectivists often enough exchange mega volumes of words … sometimes even with mutual respect and courtesy … yet … in the end both communities remain stuck in a quagmire of words.

I’d rather not wait for the facts to manifest before contemplating solutions to the greed issue we discussed. :slight_smile:

Maybe I’ll soon have a conversion experience and join your community of objectivists. :slight_smile:

Chakra Superstar,

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Define what you mean by just being awake?
Very often when we are awake, we are only half asleep or at least not fully conscious and aware of what is going on around us.

But as human beings with emotions and spirits, doesn’t being awake also have to encompass those things?
For instance, being awake - wouldn’t it mean that when our spirits soar or drag us down, we are aware or conscious of that?
When we have been hurt, wouldn’t being awake cause us to not only realize this but understand what is going on, what has triggered this emotion?
Even within the religious term which means “to be bound up” awake suggests that we would have to understand that that is the experience in those moments, at least, even if we didn’t understand Why in those moments.

Awake would also suggest that we accept it all as being human.

How can being awake mean just being awake?
Couldn’t the just make zombies of us even though zombies are the walking dead?

I think what Chakra means is that enlightenment (being awake) is not a specific emotional, religious, or spiritual state (like being at peace, or finding happiness). It encompasses all mental states, though through meditation, one can shut off those states (or quiet the mind) such that we only experience being just awake. Does that make us zombies? Well, at least we’re sitting quietly, not out hunting for brains.

Being awake, in this sense, refers to being extremely aware of one’s surroundings and the true balance of life, “high consciousness”.

Yes! Absolutely. That’s exactly what it means.

Advaita/Non-dual teachings posit that man is always Enlightened and that our zombie, semi-conscious, sleep-state is why we don’t realize it.

If someone talks about becoming Enlightened they either mistakenly think that the dream character is what ‘becomes’ enlightened or they’re a little sloppy with language. (In truth, the moment we use language, we go off track but that’s another thread)

The dream character doesn’t wake up; it doesn’t ‘become’ Enlightened. The dreamer is the one who wakes up and what the dreamer wakes up from is the erroneous BELIEF that he’s a character in the dream. If you fall back to sleep, the dream character may recall fragments of waking up then claim that he – the dream character – woke up when in actual fact, the dream character was absent when it occurred. When someone recalls a genuine Awakening ‘experience’, it’s being told by a character that wasn’t there.

Re sloppy language… We use sloppy language in day-to-day speak, too, for instance when we say “It’s becoming sunny” we actually mean “it’s becoming less cloudy”. We all know the sun doesn’t get larger or brighter so we’re not confused by the language but it can be confusing if we assume that ‘we’, the personality is that which ‘becomes’ Enlightened. Enlightenment is realized when the personality (ego/psychological identity) falls away.

FTR: The person(ality) doesn’t completely vanish; nor is it meant to. So long as we have a body and mind fragments will remain, but they’re very thin. We need the personality, the body and mind to operate in this world. They’re all part of our total being. It’s about perspective (or balance as JSS said)… it’s about having a light, healthy mind as opposed to a neurotic mind or fragile identity that constantly gets hurt and angry.

Um…. no. People who hypnotise themselves so that pain signals don’t register are not spiritually liberated but thanks for playing. :smiley:

I knew you reminded me of someone. I just couldn’t put my finger on it but it was the Buddha. You and Buddhie could be twin sisters. I swear.

On a more serious note: I’m not sure if you just imagined this or whether these could be genuine small breakthroughs. If the latter, then that could be interesting. Even though I don’t take you seriously most of the time, UP1001, it wouldn’t surprise me if you had a genuine breakthrough. It’s often people who go through immense mental pain that a shift occurs.

Chakra,

What you said concurs with my views perfectly. I wouldn’t have been able to express it as succinctly as you, I would have brought in molecules, brains, operating systems, and my theory of universal experience (I would have ended up sounding like UP1001), but I get your gist.

LOL Are you sure of that?

So we are all awake, except we are asleep?

The soul of a person changes with the level of consciousness. In a sense, the sleeping person isn’t the same person as the enlightened one within the same body. As the dream person fades away into nothingness, it is much like a rebirth for the soul to awaken, conscious of the truer nature of reality, a child shedding play things and becoming a man of conscience, attending to the affects he has upon the world.

shadow side.jpg

thoughtsofamisfit.weebly.com/our … hadow.html

Listen Arc, what you do on your meditation time is your own business. Just remember to wipe your mouth when your done. :wink:

Which ‘we’? The one that’s awake or the one that’s asleep.

Thanks for the feedback. I’m glad it’s getting across because it isn’t easy to simplify this stuff and skirt around the language traps.

Just remember that this isn’t my philosophy. This is an outline of non-dualism. I’m not selling anything.

In the end, non-dualism is about experience (wrong word but that’s language again). It’s not an intellectual philosophy. It’s just a pointer for those who are willing and brave enough to make the leap…

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The experience of not knowing you’re Awake is exactly the same as not being Awake.

An anorexic woman doesn’t have a weight problem but believes she does so she experiences the world as though she’s a fat woman.
A hypochondriac doesn’t have health issues but he believes he has so he experiences life as though he was a sick, dying man.

Rephrasing your question, you could say that these people are healthy, except they’re sick and you’d be right. They’re physically healthy but psychologically sick.

The non-duelists say we are Awakeness Itself – not some ‘thing’ that is Awake – but we identify as some ‘thing’ we’re not and thus experience life accordingly. You could say, we’re Awake spiritually but asleep psychologically.
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Awakeness is who you are (Consciousness).

Awakeness is what you are at the most fundamental level. It’s what’s behind all the images you’ve had of yourself over your lifetime. Awakeness is not something ‘you’ get or have; if so, who is the one getting it? It would mean the ‘you’ who gets Awakeness (or Enlightenment) is prior to, and greater than, Awakeness itself.

By saying ‘being Awake is just being Awake’ I was saying Awakeness is the perceiver – not that which is perceived e.g. emotions.
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Think of the Enlightened as having clear minds. The clearer the mind; the clearer the perception and understanding.

Having a clear mind doesn’t mean there are no thoughts or emotions. They do have thoughts and emotions it’s just that the Awake aren’t attached to their thoughts nor do they have fragile egos they need to defend so thoughts pass across their minds like clouds pass across a clear sky.

Those who are Awake are, by definition, more awake, more conscious, more aware than the average person so why would anyone think they might be unaware, unfeeling or zombie-like?

Once again, we have it back-to-front. We are the zombies. We’re the ones who are only partially conscious – Jesus called us the ‘dead’ – so if anyone is less aware, less understanding or doesn’t embrace their full humanity, it’s us.

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