Why do socialists deserve to not be poor?

An actual Capitalist is intending to make their life easier by making their money (i.e. others/workers) do the work for them, but yes what you say is often true of advocates of Capitalism who aren’t actually capitalists but work for capitalists - often you do see them powering through the workload making their Capitalist employer(s) very rich and remaining relatively poor themselves like good obedient slaves. The former doesn’t have to be an engineer to start an engineering company or to start a company that requires engineering - this is when you simply hire in the latter to be paid less than they earn you. Entrepreneurialism is a different skill to Management is a different skill to Operations: the first is knowing how things work inter-business, the second is knowing how things work intra-business, the third is knowing the work. The first is something of a creative skill, which even Conservative anti-Socialists like Jordan Peterson admit are the liberals - that is to say, like Bill Gates and Elon Musk, their personal sympathies are socialist even if their professional practices are capitalist - they have a clear love of what they do for its own sake and would have created regardless the economic model. Even people who got rich by moving money around and not actually creating anything themselves, like Warren Buffet, can have personal socialist sympathies. Most of the richest names aren’t actually creators at all, just money-movers who only make their life hard by competing so hard to to win the gambling game. There’s even a type of personality that supports Capitalism despite not being a capitalist, because they envy them and dream of the spoils that they enjoy but without a creative impulse in their body and often without work ethic. They neither want life to be hard, or to do or die - they want most of all for others to be less rich than they are even if they are not “yet” rich: the capitalist in their personal sympathies, but you might say socialist in professional practice - though I would disagree with that latter part.

In short, this forced dichotomy of yours breaks down as soon as you apply it to real people. It seems very much to me as though you are trying to force practice to fit your theory rather than fitting your theory around the practice. The former is the kind of thing religious apologists do, which fits your non-question-asking preaching, where the latter is the kind of thing scientists do, which is what I as a Socialist sympathiser am recommending to you. So ironically, the realm of those who you are praising as bastions of Capitalism: the engineers and scientists who create new technologies are not dogmatic like your argument here. Basically you’re telling a Socialist to be more like they are, but with the label of what they are not. And you advocate using the means of the kind of person you are against - it’s all backwards and doubly ironic that you support having no illusions. I am trying to help you here, but I think you would rather reinforce your understanding to yourself than discuss reality.

Unfortunately for your argument, I went to university to study mechanical engineering. I can tell you that there was not a hint of politics or economics amongst my contemporaries, we were all just kids - some of them simply with a love for machines. I had no idea what I was doing, I was just following my strong mathematical and scientific prior trajectory - and you might think it supports your argument that I actually switched courses, but I switched to business studies i.e. the study of how the whole system works under Capitalism - that was much more full of people wanting to get rich than engineering was. There were economics modules in there and even optional ones that I spent on philosophy - the whole thing was just me figuring myself out, because like I said - everyone was just a kid back then: nobody was some kind of capitalist hero like you’re trying to make out, least of all the engineers.

The history department at my uni were lefties - isn’t this what capitalists are supposed to be complaining about: that education has been too dominated by the left (an argument for equality of outcome if I ever heard one!)? And here you are saying socialists aren’t students of history or appreciators of human nature… the truth is basically the exact opposite. Pretty much everything you’re saying is backwards when compared to a concrete look at what is actually going on…

So what will debating on this level do? It will allow you to repeat your indoctrinated ideology over and over, and enable me to correct it in light of reality - the tennis game will continue until we get frustrated and angry, and we will get nowhere…

This is why I offered to leave you to it if you were just here to preach your religion.

I’d just like to add that I don’t have any problem with people getting rich, but just the exploitation of people to do it.

If you make products all by yourself, or employ machines to do so, then I applaud your getting rich as possible, but one can’t get very rich that way. No, it takes armies of employees contributing their productivity to one man for him to amass truly uncountable wealth. Of course, corporate welfare helps too. Also, share-buybacks, accounting gimmickry, fraud rewarded by small fines and wrist-slaps, and a central bank committed to supporting share prices.

Bezos became a billionaire running a company that never made a dime of profit in 16 years.

Musk became a billionaire running a company that not only never made a dime, but burns millions per month.

How do I start a company that burns millions and become a billionaire and then convince all the retards to cheer me for the service while on their way to cash their social security checks?

But that doesn’t fit with Jakob’s narrative, is that allowed?

I think you need him to re-iterate his position a few more times to help you realise that what you believe is something else to what it actually is.

What Socialists, aka international nazis, deserve is what nazis will always get in the end.

Dangerous hordes of miserable quasi beings obstructing everything good and decent in an “effort” to reduce the entire realm of species to death and if that can’t be accomplished, to absolute misery.
That is literally all that Socialism is.

Once upon a time it may have had the connotation of some decency, with some rare not-corrupt union leaders. But even then the basic logic was sadistic. It always has been a world of sadists, Socialism.

“whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.” - nietzsche

“sometimes one must become a monster to defeat a monster” - prometheus75

:obscene-birdiered:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjlgUx7_aN0[/youtube]

Brave Sir Robin, it now appears the soothing light at the end of your tunnel was just a freight train heading your way :laughing:

Let’s dance!

:banana-guitar:

I am just very grateful to not be you.

Please find it in yourself to entertain yourself without trying constantly to touch me. I know it is unlikely you’ll manage to make your own path. But I express the wish that you try. I do not want you anywhere near me.

This case is closed, then. My question has been answered more vividly than I asked for.

Socialists are genocidal thugs. What they deserve is what Eichmann deserved.

the feeling’s mutual, bub. and don’t let the dialectical door of history hit you on the ass on your way out!

I dunno guys…

Agreeing to disagree can be healthy for the purposes of accepting differences and moving on, but this apparent cadence just seems nothing but divisive and hostile.

The acceptance here is that everyone not “on your side” is a lost cause and “othered”, which is an effective pre-requisite for “justified” anger, hatred and violence. If there are any here who actually want this, then I think you are fools who know nothing of how bad even the slightest physical feud can get - or worse, you do know and want it anyway.

There have been hints of some just waiting for the chance to justify “othering” those in the wrong tribe, and perhaps there are arguments both for and against the inevitability and innateness of such tendencies, but let it be known that I neither support nor condone the emotional “us and them” mentality.

There are rational grounds to distinguish certain things from other things, but these do not depend on emotion - they are independent of emotion and ought not to arouse emotion when there is a legitimate rational distinction. One rock parted from another rock is not grounds for war.

I do not differentiate the capitalists from the working class through emotion, but by simple fact - no different from the cow goes moo and the dog says woof. There is factually a different way that they respectively use money, and one I support and the other I do not. And I do not make this distinction as a result of which one I prefer, but as a matter of fact - of which one works better than the other.

I am prepared to be swayed either way, but so far I see more evidence that one works better than the other. I am open to more evidence and I would encourage all others to put aside your unquestioned loyalties to “us” or “them”, but instead to evidence or lack thereof.

You sound very suspiciously like the voice of reason amidst the howling mob. I’ll be watching you, buddy.

This is why you Brits are getting screwed lol. I call this the chocolate/vanilla argument, but maybe you could give me the proper name. You’re saying that because one holds the philosophy of “adversity engendering prosperity” that it’s a trivial matter of preference whether or not they vote to implement it on people I care about, so I should stand idly by while they continue oppressing the poor like they’re ordering their specific flavor of ice cream and I’m the bad guy who’s making a mountain out of a mole hill while I watch people slaving to get by and doing without healthcare. This is like saying “Well, tossing jews in ovens is just a matter of preference and we should endeavor to get along lest we breed hostility.” This fallacy must have a name.

The bad part is, the ones oppressing the poor do not have the acumen nor humility necessary to possibly grasp how they’re oppressing the poor (and themselves),which makes them “dumb animals” that can’t be held accountable, but even if they could grasp it, they wouldn’t care because, well, your organ donor friend who wanted to be sure the undeserved didn’t get something for nothing and St Aquinas saying the best part of heaven will be watching the damned. If cancer is a disease to humanity, then so are those people. This isn’t morality, but pragmatism. It’s Stirner’s psychological, ethical, and rational egoism. Which makes conservatives irrational, since they are not acting in their own self interests, but against their own interests in order to be sure someone else has it worse.

I don’t know about you, but it’s not in my self-interest to watch people I care about suffer in order to get along with a narcissistic dimwit with a righteous rod up his ass… and who doesn’t contribute anything of value to any discussion, but only exists to disrupt and derail without dispensing anything of value that couldn’t be obtained by shaking a can of alphabet soup.

I’d prefer autsider, trixie and satyr because at least they didn’t run from a debate!

I understand your desire for peace, I want peace too, but

“Some men you just can’t reach…
So, you get what we had here last week,
which is the way he wants it!
Well, he gets it!
N’ I don’t like it any more than you men.”

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNad0Y40K64[/youtube]

You should be. Empathy is a terrible thing; good for you that you don’t have it.

Then stop following me around.

  1. it seems to me the people in countries where us/them rhetoric is accepted by all sides are also screwed. 2) you just blamed Silhouette for getting screwed, making Brits a them, who are getting themselves screwed, extending your us them even to political allies. And I am pretty damn sure the Brits are very us/them these days. 3) You’re being binary. One can passionately oppose legislation and positions without being us/them. IOW you don’t have to say your opponents are evil/stupid, but you can say policy Z is or would be catastrophic. One reason to do this is that demonizing tends to make people hand onto their positions even more. And where I am - an unnamed country in the EU - I have seen it make people more radical and outspoken and increased the rolls of nationalist parties. People concerned about immigration here have been categorized as racists - as if there were no economic issues involved. This reaction has been part of a huge increase in the support for a party with a clear racist background.

And note the irony - here he is saying the necessary enemy is communists.

So how does one deal with someone like Jakob, who clearly has no problem demonizing. Everyone who disagrees with him here is genocidal. heck, even your post above can imply that his team is genocidal nazis.

Once you limit your sense of the other to the them categorization, you are not recognizing your involvement in their very existence.

It’s cutting off the arm that offends you.

What would moving on be in this context? I am taking your post here as referring to this discussion, here in ILP. I sort of agree - see my post to Serendipper above - but then he seemed to be focusing in general.
I can’t really see what to do with Jakob. He is calling you a genocidal thug. What would moving on look like?
I don’t have an us them based on politics with him. I don’t consider myself a socialist. I find his posts just calling out for mocking, as posts. Though now I am tired of that.
In part I am pretty sure he posted her once under another name, and was, then, capable of argument and responding to points. Now he wants to express, not be criticized, anyone who disagrees with him is an anti-semite - which is just bizarre, given how much socialism today, Israel itself came out of Jewish thinkers who were socialist, and then how many jews are socialists, especially by his standards - Jews in the US, for example are quite liberal and since he calls liberals socialists, they must all be self-hating Jews. But shit, even taking the anti-semetism charge that seriously is off. One can be capitalist or socialist and be jewish, zionist, anti-jewish, whatever. It’s apples and bicycles. we’re talking economics.
I sort of hoped that throwing up some of the idiocy in his face might shift it. Naive.

If this is because he is Jewish, if he is, and any criticism aimed at him must come from the hatred of Jews, it doesn’t explain his saying all socialists are genocidal anti-semites.

How does one move on with this kind of thing?

What are you planning on collaborating on?

Probably why us won and them nazis didn’t.

Sil’s my friend, but I don’t know how to put it delicately.

Not a single downvote:

It’s the top comment from here: zerohedge.com/news/2019-03- … ebate-ends

And I didn’t vote. I don’t comment there. I just like to keep my finger on the pulse.

When you gonna wake up?

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj2gNtMqOC8]God don’t make promises that He don’t keep
You got some big dreams baby, but in order to dream you gotta still be asleep.

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up
When you gonna wake up strengthen the things that remain ?[/url]

Sil knows what I’m talking about: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=194003&p=2716701&#p2716677

So? You sound like Phyllo now. Either my friends are getting screwed or they are not… and they are.

How does one be opposed without being us/them? Do you vote to oppress the poor or do you not? If so, you’re one of them; if not, you’re one of us.

So you’re demonizing my us/them position making me hang onto it even more lol

No need to obliterate cancer? We will always have enemies. Watts was talking about the universe in general needing good and evil in proper proportions lest it get boring or lest evil destroy the whole thing. I’m fine with evil so long as it doesn’t go overboard and start hurting people I care about. You’re advocating that “rejoice in slavery because it could be worse” attitude Phyllo was selling on another thread that Sil pointed out as fallacious: relative privation.

He said communism would fall apart on its own because it’s essentially one giant corporation and exceedingly inefficient. I don’t think he recognized that the capitalists were the problem. He said he wasn’t an economist and apparently didn’t read any of Chomsky’s work.

Narcissists cannot learn because in order to learn they would first have to be wrong and that isn’t possible.

Jakob can’t win on a level field using reason and evidence, and since he can’t say “I’ve been doing some thinking and have decided you’re right”, then the only thing left for him to do is run about propagandizing.

When guys attack me on the liberalforums, I just turn it around on them.

If they say “You’re a libtard faggot!” I change their quote so it appears “I serviced a libtard faggot on the corner for a quarter” then ask how much change they returned. Then they say “Oh another faggot that edits posts”. I change it to “I’m a faggot who sits on posts”. Eventually they leave me alone. Treat me nice and I reflect that; call me names and I’ll reflect that. They’re free to beat their heads on walls all they want and I’ll just think it’s fun and games. It works, but Carleas probably wouldn’t like it around here, so I can’t do much in defense. Usually liberals have conservatives on their block lists (because they act like animals), but I bet I’m the only liberal on a conservative’s block list; they just don’t tangle with me much anymore. You can’t run from predators; we talked about that before.

This part was me shifting to spiritual. You are losing out because you can’t see how you are involved.

He and Mags are both expressing outrage at the “Labour Party” not representing the working people, but instead being conservatives in disguise. They should do something other than bend over and allow it. At least bang Jakob on the head for propagating an ideology that facilitates exploitation. :violence-hammer:

Tact has never been my strength :confused:

And what are you doing about it?

Sure, I suppose I could, but in this particular case, the proponents are evil/stupid. I mean, science says so.

You’re saying “us/them” is a dangerous philosophy, which is demonizing. And I agree it is dangerous, but I often do dangerous things. At least I recognize I’m treading on fine lines.

Are we to demonize nazis or not? Should we accept that particular political opponent or not? You’re appealing to the same chocolate/vanilla argument that being a nazi is simply a preference that everyone should respect. Being a cancer cell is simply a preference that everyone should respect. Being a germ is a preference that everyone should respect, so disinfectants are immoral, chemotherapy is immoral, and liberating jews from concentration camps was immoral; the nazis had a right to exterminate the jews, afterall, since it was their preference. Well it’s my preference to disagree with your preference that their preference is merely a preference :wink:

By suggesting that everyone should be assured of a minimum income?

I have no idea what Mags has been saying. It seems to me Sillouette has been arguing against conservatives quite steadily. I doubt banging Jakob on the head will help, not if that means insulting him.

Then insulting might seem like the appropriate tool when it’s not.

About people getting screwed? That’s not the topic. We can have that topic also…

but Serendipper the bleeding topic was

YOU said ‘that’s why you Brits are getting screwed’

I think that is a ridiculous thing to say. All sides in britain are very us/them like these days. So that’s Brits being all nicey nicey is not why they are being screwed.
and…
people are not being nicey nicey in the US and they are getting screwed.

That’s about time number 3. YOu could have the decency to respond to that point, or not.

That doesnt mean its good to call them that. Feel free at any
to respond to what I’m saying.

Well, here you seem to have finally noticed what I have been saying. It’s not much of a defense, but I appreciate it seeming like you read what I wrote.

I didn’t know that Jakob is a nazi. If the nazis make up a large percentage of your population, I htink it is a bad strategy to demonize them. POint out the evil of their acts, yes. Fight against their legislation, their lies, their acts.

Nope. You can call the acts whatever you want. You can loathe t hem emotionally and tear them apart rationally. the acts, the policies the legislation. But I don’t think demonizing a large percentage of the population will help. And I do not see it helping in the country I am in or bakc home in the US.

Strawman.

You are off your game. Maybe you need a break. This is not the Serendipper of even a couple of weeks ago.

By suggesting that everyone should be assured of a minimum income?
[/quote]
OK, acknowledge nothing. Hold the line, treat my post as an enemy soldier running at you with a bayonet. Your life seems to depend on it, or you are not sleeping or something.

I’ll avoid you for a while. I barely recognize you. You just demonized me in this post. Not as directly, but implicitly. Giving me positions I do not have that are terrible.

See you in a couple of weeks.

My suggestion: take a break or sleep or do whatever is missing. I don’t know if those are the causes but as a communication partner, now you are just like Jakob, only you put in more time on a response that is just as irrelevent.