We don’t really know what the full implications of determinism would be. If only because we don’t really know if what we think, feel, say and do is in fact determined by a necessary, inextricable intertwining of “I” out in the world it exist in. And then there are all the conflicting assessments of how one is expected to define the meaning of the word.
The bottom line is that for whatever reasons existentially a few of us become fascinated by questions like this. We think about it more than most and offer up our conjectures. While accepting that the gap between what we think we know about it and what we are able to demonstrate that others ought to think about it in turn will no doubt follow us to the grave.
I find myself often noticing that people do not seem to understand the implications of the own positions. They hold others to a certain kind of rigor, but not themselves. When I was younger I truly suffered the implications of certain ideas. Ideas I was not sure were the case, but if so, it was horrible. Those who were sure these things were the case, seemed not bothered at all. So, I notice when people seem not to understand the implications of their beliefs. And especially anyone who seems to be claiming, at least implicitly, that they can stare into the abyss while anyone who disagrees with them cannot.
Over and again, I point out that I don’t exclude my own point of view from my own point of view. But, sure, there are [no doubt] points of mine that others can note as inconsistent; or even in conflict with a basic premise of mine.
For example, a few years ago it was moreno who noted that, while embracing moral nihilism on the philosophy board, I would often come down as a hardcore leftist on the Society, Government, and Economics. I would critique the conservative point of view as though liberals were always right and conservatives were always wrong. And it was true. I wasn’t practicing what I preached. And ever since I have been more self-conscious of that. I still embody many liberal/left points of view but I am more aware that, given my own rendition of the “hole”, they can only be particular political prejudices embedded in “I” as dasein.
As for the abyss, I don’t pretend to be more sync with the existential implications of it than others. At least not any more. I think that my frame of mind is reasonable. But that can only be “here and now”. Why? Because given the nature of my own philosophy, I can never really be certain if new experiences, new relationships and access to new ideas might change my mind.
Same with determinism.
And I only label someone as an “objectivist” when they insist that how they think about right and wrong in the is/ought world encompasses the obligation of all rational/virtuous human beings. Or, in regard to the really Big Questions like this, that their argument reflects the answer.
In the context of my argument it only matters that you do label them that, and as it happens this is quite often. This is ad hominim also. And if what promethean said was clear then it becomes ‘the answer’ regarding communication and an objectivist stance.
Here, in my view, you are trying to make communication in places like this relating to issues like these something more precise than I think it can be.
I tell others how I have come to understand [subjectively] an objectivist frame of mind. It’s not a science. It’s not an exercise in pure logic. It’s a value judgment. It’s a point of view embedded in the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein as an existential contraption. In regard to conflicting value judgments.
Saying X is the answer is objectivist. Saying language is a weak tool for discussing these issues is objectivist. It is making claims about what is going on, what can happen, what is happening and indicates that objectivists who believe in effective communication on Big Questions are wrong.
That’s you saying I’m saying these things. I’m simply suggesting that in regard to conflicting goods in the is/ought world and the nature of reality itself embedded in the Big Questions, “effective communication” is often problematic to say the least.
If we are really going to take the position that our situation is such that we cannot know things, this leads to a lot of consequences. Some easier than others to face.
That’s why to the extent that we are able we need to situate our positions in particular contexts. The things that we claim to know – are we able to actually demonstrate them to others or not.
Just as with our discussions regarding the “hole” I’m in. You are able to concoct an understanding of pragmatism that is different from mine.
I didn’t concoct an understanding of pragmatism. I described how I am unconvinced by arguments that I should commit to one of the positions and that it matters. That’s not me explaining pragmatism- which I never mentioned in this context - that is me describing how I react. I am unconvinced.
But being convinced is no less an existential contraption to me. You are convinced about certain things because the trajectory of your actual lived life predisposed you to one frame of mind over another. You recognize that had your experiences been different you might just as well have been convinced of the opposite point of view. And in a No God world you recognize in turn that reasonable arguments can be made by those on both sides [on many sides] of any particular issue. Here philosophy does not appear able to provide us with a deontological assessment such that being rational is said to be the equivalent of being virtuous.
That you are convinced or unconvinced about particular value judgments “here and now” doesn’t make them [in my view] any less political prejudices rooted in dasein.
And that is the assumption that I make when describing the hole that I am in
And then on this thread whether all of this may well be “beyond my control” as a “determined” human being.
The practical implications of that are of course of fundamental importance. But if I could never have not pointed that out here…what are the implications of that?
Understanding people and what makes them tick, that has helped me both professionally and privately, I now realize (realizing its relevance to this context). So I do focus on that. I certainly can’t prove I am divvying up my interests, focus and energy in the best possible way.
What doesn’t change here for me is that some things can be understood more rather than less objectively than others. What makes people tick biologically, chemically, neurologically etc., is one thing, what makes them tick morally and politically, something different. To me very different.
And what ultimately explains “I” [determined or autonomous], going all the way back to an understanding of existence itself, is, as well, a far more peculiar reality.