Brunei: Adultery, Homosexuality - Stone to Death

Why not natural consequences? People judge you socially. Decide to side with your partner against you in some small or large ways. The person you supposedly loved gets angry, or leaves you, or also cheats, or goes cold, or stops having sex with you or is, well, sad and that affects you…we are pretty creative with punishments but also people have internal punishments.
It seems to me this a place where we don’t need government or court involvement. And then sometimes poeple cheat, perhaps often, when something else is fucked up in the relationship the other person is responsible for. They ignore you regularly, they have gone cold, they dismiss your feelings…whatever. The dramatic act of adultery might be committed by the person who has been and even still is the more committed loving partner. I am not saying it justifies the adultery, or accepting that it doesn’t, just that it can be a facile decision to call the other spouse a victim.

I don’t think that there should be a punishment for adultery. A couple should be honest with each other and allow each other to have sex with others.

I have nothing against any couple doing this. Though at some point it becomes strange to refer to them as a couple.

Family can be a center for raising children. Children also will have different opinion about adultery.

What would the word natural mean in this context?
To me it would mean what individuals and communities would do in the absence of big government and modern, abstract, simplistic ideologies like liberalism and libertarianism philosophers dreamt up ex nihilo overnight.
Husbands/wives often report being so angry with their adulterous spouse they could kill them, and some do, in spite of the legal consequences.
For millennia this desire for retribution was institutionalized by many if not every culture from primitive hunter-gatherers to more advanced tribes.
They made adultery a crime, and the consequences were often swift, and severe.
Only now, in the post-industrial, technocratic age have we begun to treat it more casually.

But I think penalizing adultery could even be made compatible with libertarianism.
After all libertarianism is all about contracts, and marriage is a kind of contract.
If we have business contracts, why not sexual ones?
There could be different forms of marriage contracts spouses could agree to and pay the state to recognize and enforce.
Partners could agree on the consequences before they marry, from paying fines, to imprisonment, to death in states that permit it.

And it’s not like jealousy only exists because of the institution of marriage, no the institution of marriage was created to deal with the natural, jealous feelings people have, it didn’t invent them, rather it’s a way of regulating them.

Agreed, I don’t have a problem with homosexuality, it’s consensual, harmless, natural and we have too many kids as is, we don’t need to force people into heterosexual relationships, but I have a problem with adultery because it’s a violation of a contract, does harm to both spouses and families, and jealousy is natural, and healthy within marriage.

If spouses want to sleep with someone else they need to get a divorce, and there should be big fines for the spouse who initiates divorce, unless they are genuinely fleeing abuse, severe neglect or adultery.

Observe Rome, a wide variety of sexual expression was permitted, including homosexuality, yet adultery was criminalized, because adultery is different, it’s a violation of a very serious contract.

If you don’t take the contract seriously, don’t get married, simple as that.

Yes, the contract … and the need for both parties to comply with the agreed terms of the contract.

Note the mentioned of the agreed original contract. Adultery would imply there is no consent from one of the party.

However if a couple decide on mutual agreement to go into sex-swapping or orgies with others [terminate the that specific term of the original marital contract], that would be their discretion. I have no problem with that.

I gave examples. I have experienced them.

I think the laws against honor type killings and jealous rage killing are fine.

If you are married and cheat there are still financial consequences. It is treated like a contract, though less and less.

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Sure, but I don’t see a reason to punish adultery like a crime.

I don’t want the state to do that. I don’t want the woman I love to not fuck around because the state will hurt her. That doesn’t help me, at all, in the slightest. That just means fear of third parties keeps her from doing what she wants. Rather than self-care, love for me, etc.

The state is welcome to protect my body and property from strangers, but if I need to state to regulate the behavior of someone I love, I am the problem. Because I should not be in a relationship with them. The other person is likely also messed up, but I need to take responsibility for the choice I made
and I will be better off with someone else if I actually need the state to be a whip to keep them loving and respectful of me.

Prismatic,

Where reality is concerned I tend not to think in such binary or absolute terms, as you seem to. I think that empirical evidence is very important and tells us a great deal about the nature of reality. But I don’t rule out the possibility that things can exist beyond the scope of what empirical methods of examination are able to find. For me, reality is both empirical and experiential, I’m not trying to prove anything. I am just a person in a Universe that is absolutely massive. How can I possibly hope to be to making absolute claims about what is universally real and what is not?

This is not right from my perspective. How can I prove that your arguement is wrong if you believe that it is perfect? Do you not see the problem?

The point of criminalizing adultery is not to force someone you love to be with you, but to keep someone you love, who no longer loves you (as much) or never loved you in the first place from disrespecting you, taking advantage of you, using you, claiming they love you and only you, and than doing something completely different behind your back.
We’re talking about criminalizing adultery here, not divorce, if they’re no longer devoted to you, they should get a divorce, or if they were never devoted to you, they shouldn’t’ve married you in the first place.
They need to be held accountable for the vows they voluntarily took.

I’m going to put this very succinctly and I hope everyone on this board understands the full magnitude of this:

Nobody fucking owns anybody

A vow of ownership is evil, even a vow of mutual ownership.

Now you know.

I suppose we have to dispense with the economy too, since it’s almost entirely dependent on contracts, on limited, mutual, temporary ‘ownership’, if that’s what you want to call it.
To me it’s just being honest and upfront with the person you profess to love.

Who is talking about enforced chattel slavery?
A marital agreement is not about anyone owning another, it is just another contract that is subjected to the universal Principles of the Laws of Contract.

To reiterate, marriage, where adultery is forbidden, isn’t about forcing your partner to be with you.
After all your partner is still free to divorce you.
It’s about preventing yourself from cheating on them, so they can be reassured the love and devotion you profess is genuine.
It’s a vow to do your best to make things work, and not cheat.
You can have them, or not, but you’re agreeing you can’t have them, and someone else.

As for the person your partner has committed adultery with, if they’re not married themselves, perhaps nothing should happen to them legally, since it’s not their contract.
The onus would fall squarely on the married person, not on the unmarried, which would be a sort of libertarian innovation to how adultery was traditionally treated.

So, it would be OK if they did it openly, in this justification. IOW if they took the risks of natural causes. But generlly it is the spouse who reports the crime, so I generally would have to know. And frankly I don’t feel any benefit from say, one of her friends reporting her to the police. Tell me, and let natural emotional social consquences follow.

I think that’s too simple. Though certainly these may be better options. and I think it is up to me, not the state to decide how she should have handled it. I don’t need them coming in, when I am capable of dealing with it, the way I want to. I wouldn’t want the state coming in regarding friendships. My friend is back talking me and other shit, so the state gets involved. I realize there is a legal aspect to the marriage, it is an official contract, which actually I think is wrong. I had to get married because of international aspects of our situation. Or, let’s say, it made sense for practical reasons and the idea certainly fit our feelings for each other. But otherwise I would not have done it. I don’t see it as the state’s business and I also see them as not competent to deal with my relationships or to be my whip.

To me, accountalbe to me, and to children if they are involved and to the other guy also. In the sense that she or I - if I cheated - might be fucking over someone else, the other woman, let’s say, also.

To have the state punish her: It’s like I am a child and the state has to look out for my welfare and take care of things I can take care of. Or it is like we cannot trust the social world to work this out. NOthing is going to fix it all, but I don’t need the people who, for example, might have been school principals - iow some bureaucrat - fixing my wife’s unfaithfulness. Or lawyers getting in there. I mean, that is like getting a dentist to fix my bike.

And the punishments would also be as much category errors.’

As the victim, if it was that simple that I was the victim, I get nothing from the punishment. I don’t think society does either. It is a mess out there now, but we need to find our way through it. Controlling the mess, pushing it further underground, making it ‘work’ with even less freedom, that’s just hiding from our fears that we will not be loved as if we an guarantee it. Or fear of not being respected. Or fear of being cuckholded. Or fear of not being good enough at sex. Or not being lovable enough.

I get laws that protect strangers from strangers and even loved ones from the violence of each other. But this…no.

We need to work this out between people, just as we do friendships. Which entails, not always having it work out. But then government involvement is at best no guarantee of this either.

Ok, let’s be honest here. How often do you find yourself saying, “my mom, my dad, my child, my cat. Etc…”. For another BEING!!

Contracts of “my being” are null and void in enlightened society.

The only thing there is to get around religious slavery “we all belong to god” in the English language is to use the word: dedicated (unceremoniously)

You do realize that a ceremony in and of itself is to celebrate the greatest evil in existence: zero sum, “I win, everyone else on earth loses, yeah me!”

Marriage is massively unethical on even more scales than those. It also as the conspicuous consumption of relationship, positively reenforces the destruction of the ecosystem.

Marriage also defends, rape, murder and torture globally

I can prove all of this: ask your specific questions

I’m ready to do this with the entire board right now.

There’s a very good reason in another thread that I stated “I already know you’re all fucked in the head” in the politics section:

Cmon let’s do this!

I’m ready

Now, before we actually get into this, I’m not mad at you, nor am I trying to change you.

I don’t expect anyone to grow but myself.

You’ll understand after all this is revealed, why I’m trying to turn all eternal forms into hyperdimensional mirrors.

I’m going to explain something that may strike you as very weird:

I like all your shit.

I don’t have to defend you.

I’m from a different dimension than all of you.

I, as a hardliner, can easily hell this entire species, and just walk away with clean hands.

But I love earth, I love things like this that you should be sent to hell for…

m.youtube.com/watch?v=H8_3DZpym-0

Because I actually really do love and give a shit about your beauty, you are protected by me.

Now, personally, I don’t like any of you.

But you have potential. I see it.

You folks misunderstand me completely if you think I’m trying to hell you

I like cell phones, I like tv and some of the movies you make.

Don’t worry about a thing, because, I like your shit.

I can have human children, but I’m basically a different species.

I don’t hold it against you.

I exist on a different dimension than the rest of you.

I like shit about conversations about nature here, trees, flowers.

I’m also well aware they have their own spirits, I talk to them. They don’t like what you’re doing to earth.

When I say that I exist on a different dimension than the rest of you, it’s quite real.

The thing is, I love the earth…

I know how to defend you from beings who think otherwise in my dimension.

This earth will never die.

I like it as home.

And I will make it my home, and yours if you so choose, to live in it beautifully again.