New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Let’s start with this. Then depending on how long he can go before huffing and puffing about iambiguous the troll who should be banned from ILP, we can explore additional points.

Over and over and over again, I make the distinction between that part of a “self” that interacts with others in the either/or world, and that part which often comes into conflict with others in the is/ought world.

This distinction:

[b][i]a man amidst mankind…

That is the paradox, right? I am an individual…a man; yet, in turn, I am but one of 6,500,000,000 7,530,000,000 (2017) additional men and women that constitutes what is commonly called “mankind”. So, in what sense can I, as an individual, grasp my identity as separate and distinct from mankind? How do I make intelligent distinctions between my personal, psychological “self” [the me “I” know intimately from day to day], my persona [the me “I” project – often as a chameleon – in conflicting interactions with others], and my historical and ethnological self as a white male who happened adventiously to be born and raised to view reality from the perpective of a 20th century United States citizen?[/i][/b]

Now, assuming that my own sense of self is not just a character for some entity in a sim world, or for another in a dream world etc., I make the assumption that there are things about my self which are true objectively. My height, my weight, my health, my place of residence, the things that I do, my posts here.

As for this part…

…let him cite examples of this from my posts. Or he can choose a particular context involving particular people consenting to behave in particular ways such that conflicts arise over value judgments.

I’ll react to that and he can then point out actual examples of the accusations that he makes above.

Fair enough?

Fair enough:

You call people who disagree that you don’t exist, shallow in the sense that they are hiding behind an existential contraption, that someone with MORE DEPTH (you, according to you) doesn’t shallowly hide behind.

You are not everyone, nor could you have been born as anyone else (the proof, intractable) is that you weren’t. You are you, nobody else could have been you (this is the proof that otherness must exist for existence to exist, and that if anyone is exactly the same, they simply are that being)

So here again, we show iambiguous to be a shoddy philosopher.

I found it interesting that you only went after the implied ad Homs, instead of the proofs (the only thing you ever ask of any poster on ILP)

I find that VERY interesting

Note to others:

See what I mean?

Try this:

1] read my post above – my reaction to the first point he raises
2] explain to me how his reaction to that hasn’t already shifted the exchange to him huffing and puffing about me.

Where is there even a scintilla of substance regarding the points that I make? Where is the actual context and behaviors in which to explore all of these the distinction I make between “a man” amidst “mankind”?

After all, what’s the point of grappling with issues like abortion unless and until we first grapple with the issue of identity itself? Insofar as the relationship between “I” and “out in the world” is confronted by him in the manner in which I confront it on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

Compare his arguments above with what [in my view] are the far more sophisticated ones that Faust was making on his thread. It’s just that Faust is far less willing to actually explore things like this…

How might Rawls’s “method” be applicable with respect to the killing of the unborn? While I don’t pretend to understand metaphysically how any particular abortion is related to a complete understanding of existence itself, it seems reasonable to me to suggest that with respect to the law, political power and moral narratives, “distributive justice” is either more or less effective in responding to my point that value judgments are rooted in dasein, conflicting goods and political economy.

…existentially, out in the world pertaining to a particular context. Whereas [in my view], ecmandu’s “proofs” here are just a bunch of words stuck together in a argument, the truth of which is predicated entirely on the political assumptions he makes about abortion.

Consider:

Exactly my point: a definitional proof embedded tautologically in the internal logic given to the meaning that he insists must be ascribed to words put in that order.

But that’s just me reacting as “I” do. And I can’t just react otherwise until it seems reasonable to.

Iambiguous, you lie through your teeth.

You not only state that you don’t have a self because it’s fragmented, you’ve never not, in any context, not put quotes around “I”

You are lying when you say it has context.

Note to others:

So, what do you think…is this exchange over?

Why, don’t you someday provide an argument and then do your dances.

You’re terrified to debate me.

Every time I corner you, you make it sound like anyone but you is supporting you (note to others), I didn’t debate ecmandu, but I trolled a bunch of bananas that proves I won.

We discover definitions like we do mathematical proof, we don’t invent them.

You’re simply equivocating to “win” your debate, however, definitions are objective.

When I point and say, “look at that bird”, you know what I mean, it’s self evident, you consider yourself a deep thinker by then turning to me after you look at the bird, and state, “gobbligook” and that you don’t know what I meant.

This is disingenuous, it is a lie.

Definition is self evident, just like consent is self evident.

I obviously need to add to this:

Iambiguous asked me point blank where he ever said anyone who disagrees with him is shallow, I explained it, and then he made the next post saying “look, he made it about me”

Just after I had noticed that he only went after my implied ad hom arguments instead of the actual proofs.

He did quote one proof though, and this was his refutation: you just randomly jumbled a bunch of words together, and expect someone to agree with dictionaries and grammar, both of which are existential contraptions … and because of this, you are shallow compared to me… just another kid.

What the fuck dude?

Serious?

What if I answered all of your posts like that?

Note to others:

Sure, there is always the possibilty that ecmandu will make a point on this thread relevant to the points I raised with him. A point that, in your view, does in fact raise serious questions regarding my own argument.

Please bring that to my attention. Otherwise I’m done here and back to this:

Unless of course Faust chooses to continue our own exchange.

've been thinking of retrollint this exchange . Gentlemen, if I may, wouldn’t it be fitting at this point to engage on this worthy topic of objectivism on a forum concerned with formal debate, rather then subsisting primarily on basis of sentiment?

If it could be mutually admitted that such IS taking place.

After all learning is nothing to be shy about, particularly and admittedly with the help of the not too remote of wiki leak and other sources?

Please gentlemen, please!

youtu.be/1GNR12vGALI

Has anyone pointed out the circularity here yet?

1. “No being wants their consent violated unless it is on their own terms”.

Consent: being on one’s own terms.

2. “No being wants their consent violated unless they consent to it” = nobody wants their consent violated.

Want: consent.

3. “Nobody wants what they don’t want”.
   Or 3 versions in full:
   i) Nobody wants what they don’t want, unless they want it.
   ii) Nobody consents to having their consent violated unless they consent to it.
   iii) It is on nobody’s terms to have their terms violated unless it is on their own terms.

Any combination is the same tautology.

Sort it out Ecmandu because you cannot construct an argument based on a tautology

Addressed to sillouette as well.

I assumed you all remembered three or 4 threads ago where we went through precisely why I word it this way:

Let me put it this way again:

Most people like to be surprised, all consent violations are suprizes but not all suprizes are consent violations, there’s what’s called"pleasantly surprised".

The whole point of a pleasant suprize is that it needs to run the fine line of possibly always being a consent violation.

Some people just outright hate any suprize.

So here’s the finer point I tried to make and clarify.

Most people want a reality where what would ordinarily be a consent violation for most people isn’t one for them, but they cannot know one way or the other until it actually occurs for them.

So… this is the fine line of consent violation to that regard.

Now imagine this: someone states "I want my possible suprizes to be WITHIN THIS RANGE, but NO MORE than this range.

What they’re doing here is putting themselves in the position to be horrified with possible surprises in that range, but they are setting the terms of the limit of the range.

The finer reason why this specific area needs to be articulated, is because, in hyperdimensional mirror realities, you can reflect the eternal form with or without modification. People who want to get to know the person or be with the person as they fully are, without modification is highly desirable for those who want the challenge of the full breadth of the person being reflected. But, as you consent to this, you are suddenly opening yourself up to what could be a major consent violation by practicing this degree of uncontrolled trust. Meaning: serious consent violation.

So, I move an additional layer back and state that , yes, people may want their consent violated at some point for an immersive experience peculiar to them and not others, BUT, given this, EVERYONE wants some terms to be their own.

If you say for example, it’s ok if you violate my consent, someone may then send you to hell forever.
But, if you state, it’s ok if you violate my consent, but if I want you to stop, you must stop immediately. You can’t take advantage of me opening the door for one second and give me infinite consequence.

Most people don’t even know what’s out there, so their are neither making informed decisions on consent, nor are they fully aware of what they would enjoy.

So, the way I word this, is that most people actually do want some degree of consent violation, however, in stating this, everyone wants it on their own terms.

If you can think of a better way of putting this, be my guest.

“No being wants their consent violated unless it is on their own terms”.
“Most people actually do want some degree of consent violation, however, in stating this, everyone wants it on their own terms.”

Want <=> consent <=> being on one’s own terms (as before).

i) Most people actually do want some degree of what they don’t want, but everyone wants this to be how they want it.
ii) Most people actually do consent to some degree of consent violation, but everyone consents to this being how they consent to it.
iii) It is on most people’s terms to have some degree of what isn’t on their terms, but it’s on everyone’s terms for this to be on their own terms.

That’s all fine and well, but every single one of you know exactly what I mean.

So, I put it forth, if you have better suggestions, be my guest. I’ll consider it again as well.

Yes, and that’s the problem.

if:
P = people want
x = the thing they want
then:
∀P(∃P(¬x))

if y = ∃P(¬x) for simplification,
then ∀P(y), which just shows the qualification in terms of x to be redundant, and you get “everyone wants what they want” in terms of y.

The problem of tautologies is that you’re not actually saying anything. We know what you mean, and tautologies are meaningless.

Sillouette, you don’t have me in a corner at all, I’m just trying to work a more subtle argument about what that might mean for people.

All I need to say, is that nobody wants their consent violated. And I can say that people simply use that room for a whole variety of experiences that others don’t.

I’m not in a box here, I’m attempting through transparency, to make a subtler argument.

Mr reasonable was right. Most women during sex, love to have their face forcibly pushed into a pillow while they’re being strangled (by suprize)!

All I have to argue is that they are evil for being that way in the first place, and that nobody likes their consent to be violated, or that the planet is being destroyed when anyone sends a powerful “no means yes” signal to the cosmos. I don’t have to lose this debate. I’m trying to make a subtler point.

Damn, you guys are right, I’m not sure I can make that argument non tautologically. The stakes are too high:

I have to revert back to the non circular, non tautological, true by definition: nobody wants their consent to be violated.

I tried though. Oh well.

“No being wants their consent violated unless it is on their own terms”.
“Most people actually do want some degree of consent violation, however, in stating this, everyone wants it on their own terms”.
“Nobody wants their consent to be violated”.

Want <=> consent (as before).

i) Nobody wants what they don’t want.
ii) Nobody consents to their consent being violated.

if:
P = people want/consent to
x = the thing they want/consent to
then:
¬P(P(¬x))

Pretty sure it simplifies through ¬P(¬P(x)) or P(¬P(¬x)) to P(x)
Again: tautology.

??? What didn’t you understand about the post above ???

I said that you guys are right!!!

Read it