Gloom wrote
Can I get an example of this?
Off the top of my head, unfortunately not, but if you’re still interested, you should do some research on the Nordic model.
Just watched a short special on Sweden (part and parcel of the Nordic Model) discussing their socialism from the 70’ and 80’s which about bankrupted their government. Now everything that was government run is privatized just to keep it operating and the dirty secret is the lowest to low economic class of people pay the highest taxes, not the rich, but the poor pay the most taxes. So I’m not impressed and am not sure what is positive there
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i9FQ834yFc[/youtube]
We should look at multiple data points from multiple sources before we form much of an opinion.
According to Wikipedia 30% of their economies are still public, and they have progressive taxation, not regressive.
Wiki
With the glut of immigration burdening the welfare system, the skyrocketing unemployment and the immigrants perpetuating the rape culture and no go zones there since 2015, I find it hard to believe Wiki and the 2019 World Happiness report.
Obviously there’s a reason that these countries are being pushed as model countries, but I wonder if it’s for aboveboard reasons.
Does privatizing everything truly make it better?
What’s interesting is that you say progressive taxes, another article says flat taxes, and the interview with the Swede guy says higher taxes for the poor.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/100714/nordic-model-pros-and-cons.asp Says flat taxes
Hungary is an interesting case.
They have free education, universal healthcare and other social services, a mixed economy, yet socially they remain nationalistic and moderately conservative.
My argument is not that Finland and Scandinavia is a paradise, just an example that a mixed economy can work well.
I think you know me, I’m pro-free speech, gun and due process, and anti-immigration.
I also have some reservations about progressive taxation, I don’t think the working and middle classes should be taxed much, if at all, and if that means we have to cut back on some social services, so be it, or alternatively, go after the richest 1 or 0.1% even harder, make sure they’re not skirting around taxes.
I have reservations about them too, but I have reservations about ours as well, the Anglo-Saxon model, the cut taxes for the rich and spending on the poor, but bailout and subsidize private megacorporations anyway, model.
I think you mean nationalizing or corporatism here.
That’s not my argument.
The extreme left and right both offer simplistic solutions to complex problems.
I’m saying there’s a time and place for markets, nationalization and corporatism.
It’s a mix of progressive and flat taxes, I don’t think there’s any regressive taxes.
I’m anti-flat tax.
What is sad is that information can no longer be trusted it seems to me. How can there be so many different “facts” regarding the same things such as tax rates?
I thought that all healthcare in Sweden was covered by taxes, but there are still charges to see physicians, for prescriptions, and dental costs. To me universal healthcare covers citizens universally and all charges universally.
The 60% tax rate in Sweden is paid by the lower income folks and that’s regressive even if online materials is trying to say progressive or flat neither of which are probably true.
The high taxes are paid by everyone and the percentage goes up, the higher the income. Of course there are always more ways for the wealthy to get around taxes, though less ways than in the US.
Yes, you pay to see physicians, up to 150 bucks a year, then it is free. In fact, any medical costs going to a medical professional, like including physiotherapists, counts towards that 150. Once you have reached that amount, it’s free for a year. Think of it as a deductible. You’re insured, but after this minimal sum. Yes, medications cost, though if they are necessary and you really couldn’t pay there are possible solutions. Of course Thatcher and Reagan and the neocons are reaching Scandanavia. So the system is being piece by piece, slowly over time, reduced.
Children get free health care and dental till they are 18.
The system worked very well in many ways until the 2000s as all the finance sector and banking skimming, worldwide, meant that everyone had less money and got compensated less for actual work.
Imagine not having to be afraid of catastrophic illness reducing your family to financial rubble It gave workers real power in relation to employers. You really didn’t have to stay with asshole employers. Yet, the Swedes had better numbers as far as percentage who worked compared to countries without universal health care. They had a reputation as hard workers in fact, still do.
Here’s how taxation works in Sweden, it’s progressive.
I’m not saying it’s perfect, I think the working and middle classes should be taxed less, if at all, and the upperclass progressively more.
Sweden and Denmark’s GDP per capita is a little less than the US, but Iceland and Norway’s is a little more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
But GDP per capita isn’t a perfect measure of median household income because of uneven distribution.
Scandinavia has lower income inequality than the US, and its European neighbors.
It, along with the Romance countries (Spain, France, Italy), also has a higher life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
There’s so many factors to look at, but I think we can at least conclude the Nordic model is high functioning, it has many benefits worth considering.
This list is worth a look:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income
And this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income
Both Scandinavia and the US perform exceptionally well in these.
Both Scandinavia and the US appear to have the highest median incomes in the world, and Canada isn’t far behind them, but the US still has much higher income inequality and a lower life expectancy, for whites included (surprisingly apparently both Asian, and Latino Americans have a much higher life expectancy than white Americans, was not expecting that).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health_in_the_United_States
I have no idea why Latino Americans are living longer than white Americans, since Latino Americans are poorer than white Americans, perhaps they’re more health conscious.
All that being said, Scandinavian income will be taxed, some of that will go into relatively universal healthcare and other social services, which may partly explain why Americans have a shorter life expectancy, lower class Americans don’t have as much access to healthcare.
A stab in the dark on this: Japanese people lived longer than Americans. Smoking japanese didn’t die much younger or at all younger. This confused people. Then they tracked immigrants to the US from Japan. If the immigrants took on the more individualistic lifestyle of americans - smaller families, less family contact, primarily all the tight family, and extended family stuff,
they died like americans. If they smoked, they died much younger like other americans.
But those that stayed very traditional, they maintained longevity.
Latinos tend to have tighter and more extended family connections right through life and of course this likely leads to elderly being in home, rather than sent off to die. And their lives probably are richer and more filled with love. That could make a big difference.
I am still surprised, however. But I thought I’d toss a guess out.
There’s a lot of bs written about Sweden by the Right and the Left probably thinks it is better than it is. The supposed war zone of Malmö is a city I would walk anywhere in, which is not the case for cities that size in the US. Most of the big violence is between criminals. The areas that have problems that get called no go zones do have warehoused people aspects. Immigrants are shunted by real estate agents into certain areas. Employers will choose people with Swedish names over people with stronger qualifications with foreign names. And this includes people with their degrees in Sweden. If they change their names, they get to interviews and often jobs. There is a push towards meaningful lives and a lot of the immigrants who want to work, and certainly the majority of the men want to have a hard time getting it. Of course the immigrants contribute in their own ways, some cultural, some individual and many coming from war zones are damaged. But this all gets painted by the Right as a pure, they don’t want to work, they want the welfare state’s teat. Overly simple. The Left tends to not want to see that different cultures lead to problems, sometimes severe ones.
How the incoming immigrants and refugees have affected rape is not made public, which is simply wrong. Let’s chips fall where they may, and make sure to count in factors like income, unemployment and so on. But deal with it. You have one of the most enormous culture differences around female behavior possible. In Sweden women are able to be extremely free with their bodies and sexuality and have more positions of power than most places in the world. Cues that say ‘I want to have sex with you’ or ‘I am a prostitute’ in many cultures mean nothing at all that in Sweden. This does not justify rape, at all. But not enough is done to deal with the incredible differences. But it’s nice to see the Right so concerned about rape. Of course, it’s the stranger rape, especially between races that really gets them political on the issue.
There are many things wrong in Sweden and I think the Right is sometimes correct in what they see. And Sweden is not a world power, which allows it to do things that would not work in larger and more powerful countries. I just see so much bs in the news.
I have three sources so far for my information and it differs from what you are purporting as well as the sources differing from one another. Points of contention 1. The poor pay the higher tax rate of 60% where the wealthier pay the lower tax rate of 44%. I’m not trusting Wiki at this point Gloom, sorry. Do you have a better sources? 2. What I read about physician charges said nothing about a spend down. It stated that charges between 180-300 SEK per visit to a physician. 3. Children get free health and dental care until they are 21.
These discrepancies are what I’m talking about regarding online materials. How in the Hell do you research truth when there are numerous truths about the same thing rather than one? KT, where’d you get your info? Link?
KT wrote
I don’t understand your paragraph about the rape epidemic there. The left covers it up and Sweden’s own women are coming out on YouTube with the truth on the matter. A sad truth that deserves more attention than letting the chips fall where they may and monitoring factors like income and employment. That’s ludicrously inadequate.
I was thinking something along the same lines.
Naw I’m sure you’re right, that must be it, Latino Americans have all the benefits of the American economy + all the benefits of their Catholic, Latin American culture; strong families, home-cooking.
They may be a little poorer on average, but it’s not enough to make much of a difference.
Yea, some places are better to live than others, but every place has its issues, unfortunately increasingly the left and right are talking passed each other, they each can’t see any value in what the other has to say.