Shadow

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

Shadow

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:03 pm

I've returned to Jung, because he's right.

Freud's also right much of the time, but his approach is very bizarre, whereas Jung applies to general human psychology very simply.

I've always thought of the Shadow concept as rather obvious - and yet, it is simply very relevant to every single person I know, certainly to myself.

Image

Here are eleven quotes from Carl Jung about the shadow, from http://jungcurrents.com


"The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge."

Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14


"Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of Western theosophy, but not the confrontation with the shadow and the world of darkness. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious."

“The Philosophical Tree” (1945). In CW 13: Alchemical Studies. P.335


"The change of character brought about by the uprush of collective forces is amazing. A gentle and reasonable being can be transformed into a maniac or a savage beast. One is always inclined to lay the blame on external circumstances, but nothing could explode in us if it had not been there. As a matter of fact, we are constantly living on the edge of a volcano, and there is, so far as we know, no way of protecting ourselves from a possible outburst that will destroy everybody within reach. It is certainly a good thing to preach reason and common sense, but what if you have a lunatic asylum for an audience or a crowd in a collective frenzy? There is not much difference between them because the madman and the mob are both moved by impersonal, overwhelming forces."

Psychology and Religion” (1938). In CW 11: Psychology and Religion: West and East. P.25


"Whenever contents of the collective unconscious become activated, they have a disturbing effect on the conscious mind, and contusion ensues. If the activation is due to the collapse of the individual’s hopes and expectations, there is a danger that the collective unconscious may take the place of reality. This state would be pathological. If, on the other hand, the activation is the result of psychological processes in the unconscious of the people, the individual may feel threatened or at any rate disoriented, but the resultant state is not pathological, at least so far as the individual is concerned. Nevertheless, the mental state of the people as a whole might well be compared to a psychosis."

“The Psychological Foundation for the Belief in Spirits” (1920). In CW 8: The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche. P.595


"Unfortunately there can be no doubt that man is, on the whole, less good than he imagines himself or wants to be. Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is. If an inferiority is conscious, one always has a chance to correct it. Furthermore, it is constantly in contact with other interests, so that it is continually subjected to modifications. But if it is repressed and isolated from consciousness, it never gets corrected."

“Psychology and Religion” (1938). In CW 11: Psychology and Religion: West and East. P.131


"We know that the wildest and most moving dramas are played not in the theatre but in the hearts of ordinary men and women who pass by without exciting attention, and who betray to the world nothing of the conflicts that rage within them except possibly by a nervous breakdown. What is so difficult for the layman to grasp is the fact that in most cases the patients themselves have no suspicion whatever of the internecine war raging in their unconscious. If we remember that there are many people who understand nothing at all about themselves, we shall be less surprised at the realization that there are also people who are utterly unaware of their actual conflicts."

“New Paths in Psychology” (1912). In CW 7: Two Essays on Analytical Psychology. P.425


"It is a frightening thought that man also has a shadow side to him, consisting not just of little weaknesses- and foibles, but of a positively demonic dynamism. The individual seldom knows anything of this; to him, as an individual, it is incredible that he should ever in any circumstances go beyond himself. But let these harmless creatures form a mass, and there emerges a raging monster; and each individual is only one tiny cell in the monster’s body, so that for better or worse he must accompany it on its bloody rampages and even assist it to the utmost. Having a dark suspicion of these grim possibilities, man turns a blind eye to the shadow-side of human nature. Blindly he strives against the salutary dogma of original sin, which is yet so prodigiously true. Yes, he even hesitates to admit the conflict of which he is so painfully aware."

“On the Psychology of the Unconscious” (1912). In CW 7: Two Essays on Analytical Psychology. P.35


"If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all his projections, then you get an individual who is conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong, and they must be fought against… Such a man knows that whatever is wrong in the world is in himself, and if he only learns to deal with his own shadow he has done something real for the world. He has succeeded in shouldering at least an infinitesimal part of the gigantic, unsolved social problems of our day."

“Psychology and Religion” (1938). In CW 11: Psychology and Religion: West and East. P.140


"Taking it in its deepest sense, the shadow is the invisible saurian tail that man still drags behind him. Carefully amputated, it becomes the healing serpent of the mysteries. Only monkeys parade with it."

The Integration of the Personality. (1939).


"We carry our past with us, to wit, the primitive and inferior man with his desires and emotions, and it is only with an enormous effort that we can detach ourselves from this burden. If it comes to a neurosis, we invariably have to deal with a considerably intensified shadow. And if such a person wants to be cured it is necessary to find a way in which his conscious personality and his shadow can live together."

“Answer to Job” (1952). In CW 11: Psychology and Religion: West and East. P.1


"The world is as it ever has been, but our consciousness undergoes peculiar changes. First, in remote times (which can still be observed among primitives living today), the main body of psychic life was apparently in human and in nonhuman Objects: it was projected, as we should say now. Consciousness can hardly exist in a state of complete projection. At most it would be a heap of emotions. Through the withdrawal of projections, conscious knowledge slowly developed. Science, curiously enough, began with the discovery of astronomical laws, and hence with the withdrawal, so to speak, of the most distant projections. This was the first stage in the despiritualization of the world. One step followed another: already in antiquity the gods were withdrawn from mountains and rivers, from trees and animals. Modern science has subtilized its projections to an almost unrecognizable degree, but our ordinary life still swarms with them. You can find them spread out in the newspapers, in books, rumours, and ordinary social gossip. All gaps in our actual knowledge are still filled out with projections. We are still so sure we know what other people think or what their true character is."

“Psychology and Religion” (1938) In CW II: Psychology and Religion: West and East. P. 140


"No, the demons are not banished; that is a difficult task that still lies ahead. Now that the angel of history has abandoned the Germans, the demons will seek a new victim. And that won’t be difficult. Every man who loses his shadow, every nation that falls into self-righteousness, is their prey…. We should not forget that exactly the same fatal tendency to collectivization is present in the victorious nations as in the Germans, that they can just as suddenly become a victim of the demonic powers."

“The Postwar Psychic Problems of the Germans” (1945)
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
valueontologyforsuperIQs - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 10931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Shadow

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:10 pm

Let me lift one out to study.

"Taking it in its deepest sense, the shadow is the invisible saurian tail that man still drags behind him. Carefully amputated, it becomes the healing serpent of the mysteries. Only monkeys parade with it."

How does one amputate the shadow?
What does it mean to carefully amputate the shadow?

And what does it mean to parade with it?

Am I parading with my shadow when I talk down on people whom I think are being stupid?

Is rap music parading with the shadow, or is it rather the healing serpent?
Or both?

What precisely is the fucking shadow?
What is your shadow, if I may ask?
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
valueontologyforsuperIQs - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 10931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Shadow

Postby Tab » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:11 pm

Reading history convinced me of the same. The soldiers in the Rape of nanking, the concentration camp staff, they weren't particularly evil, it was just an psychic adaptation to the times. Adaptation is the wrong word really, more like the times just summoned the shadows which were always there, or gave no reason for people to keep a lid on them anymore.

Any realistic society should take into account not only our better natures, but our worse natures too, when building itself. Remove moral hazards and boom, everyone's more moral.
Image
User avatar
Tab
Deeply Shallow
 
Posts: 8594
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:49 pm

Re: Shadow

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:15 pm

Tab wrote:Reading history convinced me of the same. The soldiers in the Rape of nanking, the concentration camp staff, they weren't particularly evil, it was just an psychic adaptation to the times.

Yes. The Stanford Prison Experiment stands out as a definitive proof of this stuff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_ ... experiment

Any realistic society should take into account not only our better natures, but our worse natures too, when building itself. Remove moral hazards and boom, everyone's more moral.

Yes, and how has this been done, how can it be done now?

And, there is both the shadow of society, of masses, and of personal humans individually.

How do we go about taking into account the individual shadow?

Im just asking now - as, to be frank, Ive been wiser in this regard than I am now.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
valueontologyforsuperIQs - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 10931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Shadow

Postby iambiguous » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:24 pm

We'll need a context of course.

A shadow in what sense, relating to what set of circumstances, understood in what particular way?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 37611
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Shadow

Postby promethean75 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:38 pm

That's exactly why Freud kicked Jung out of his set. The moment Jung started getting all spooky Freud was like 'bro I can't roll with you anymore. You sound like a philosopher or something.'
promethean75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: Shadow

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:42 pm

We'll need a context of course.

A shadow in what sense, relating to what set of circumstances, understood in what particular way?

Yes, thats what Im basically asking. Not sure if I should be expecting responses because its damned hard to figure out about oneself, and if one figures it out it isn't necessarily something one would like to share. Maybe.

But okay. You were in a war. Could I ask you to focus on that and tell me something, which applies to any of Jungs quotes above?
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
valueontologyforsuperIQs - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 10931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Shadow

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:42 pm

promethean75 wrote:That's exactly why Freud kicked Jung out of his set. The moment Jung started getting all spooky Freud was like 'bro I can't roll with you anymore. You sound like a philosopher or something.'

I didn't know about that.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
valueontologyforsuperIQs - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 10931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Shadow

Postby Tab » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:43 pm

Yes, and how has this been done, how can it be done now?

And, there is both the shadow of society, of masses, and of personal humans individually.

How do we go about taking into account the individual shadow?


"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." That kind of optimistic bullshit needs to go for a start.

When a developer codes a game, or an app or an OS, they realise that someone somewhere will try to hack, crack or otherwise exploit it. So they beta-test it. Run it in a sandbox, throw it to white-hat hackers for a good going over. We should do the same to social institutions.

Governments should employ thieves, perverts, gangsters, terrorists, embezllers and other assorted ne'er-do-wells to troubleshoot themselves perhaps lol.
Image
User avatar
Tab
Deeply Shallow
 
Posts: 8594
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:49 pm

Re: Shadow

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:01 pm

"Governments should employ thieves, perverts, gangsters, terrorists, embezllers and other assorted ne'er-do-wells to troubleshoot themselves perhaps lol."

I like that.
That has some meat on it.

Can we transpose this to the individual?
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
valueontologyforsuperIQs - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 10931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Shadow

Postby iambiguous » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:10 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:But okay. You were in a war. Could I ask you to focus on that and tell me something, which applies to any of Jungs quotes above?


Well, as matter of fact, I was in a war. The Vietnam war. I went over there a gung-ho, red-blooded American Christian, ready to kick the Communists ass. I returned a radical left-wing atheist who tossed away his Bronze Star medal and Army Commendation medal with a V-device for valor on April 19th 1972, the one year anniversary of Operation Dewey Canyon III protest in Washington D.C. Just tossed them into a dumpster outside my apartment complex. At the time a very powerful and very personal experience. Just me, myself and I.

Ironically enough, not more than a couple of miles from where I live now. And I've lived all over the Baltimore metropolitan area.

But now, years later, I am considerably more ambivalent about all of the things I did back then. From the radical right to the radical left. Back in my own "objectivist days".

As for Jung, how would those here who share in any of the points he raised above react to what I did back then? How would the Freudians?

Jung:

"The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge."

How does that fit into my reaction to the Vietnam war? Damned if I know. What the hell does this even mean in regard to any particular individual facing any particular situation in which moral and political narratives come into conflict?

More to the point [mine] in terms of your own interactions with others involving "considerable moral effort", what does it mean to you?

Cite a situation you have been in that allows you to describe it more substantively.

Same with all the other quotes. They are all just "general description intellectual contraptions" to me.

But if anyone here would like to reconfigure one of them into an assessment of a particular set of circumstances they have been in such that this "shadow" becomes more substantial, I'd be interested in exploring that.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 37611
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Shadow

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:18 pm

To me your shadow is your dark side and because it is your shadow it cannot be separated from you but remains a part of you always
So I think Jung was wrong when he implies that it can be separated from you physically because your experiences define who you are
He is right however in that it is the dark within someone but it never leaves you although it may significantly change shade over time

I think that is determined by the degree to which one accepts responsibility for oneself more than the actual things themselves
Once done ayn action cannot be undone but introspection is always a process that will be ongoing until resolution has occurred

The dark side is always there both potentially and actually - potentially for what can or will be done and actually for what has been done

Evil is more noticeable in the individual because it is so brutal compared to the norm but on a truly grand scale it then becomes the norm
That famous phrase banality of evil allows anything at all to be seen as morally unremarkable if it is sufficiently widespread and accepted
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Shadow

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:29 pm

The question is why are people unaware of what is going on in their subconscious ?
A part of the answer is that the subconscious itself does not fully reveal itself to us

Also there may be those who do not want to look into the abyss for fear of what they may see
But this may be more preferable to not looking in at all - ignorance is after all not always bliss
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Shadow

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:42 pm

Once done any action cannot be undone but introspection is always a process that will be ongoing until resolution has occurred
Sometimes it can simply be a question of allowing sufficient time to pass in order for the healing process to become complete

Other times it may require therapy because the individual cannot heal by themselves because they do not know how
There is so much we do not reveal to others but it is necessary for our well being that we try and do it to ourselves
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Shadow

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:01 am

To go through suffering and to emerge from it damaged but also more complete because one has survived
It strengthens one psychologically and philosophically and prepares them for possible future suffering too
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Shadow

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:19 am

One probably never truly heals because there will always be something left behind even if we do not know
As that may be necessary to protect ourselves if we ever need a defence for events that are yet to happen

The subconcious apparently controls everything but can we ever fully understand it through the conscious ?
Is trying to understand it even the right way - is it not better to simply let it be without expecting answers ?
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Shadow

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:27 am

Eighteen years ago I went into a black hole that I had absolutely no control over that tried to kill me
I am out of it now but I bet you my life my subconscious has retained the memory until the day I die
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Shadow

Postby Meno_ » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:30 am

surreptitious75 wrote:Eighteen years ago I went into a black hole that I had absolutely no control over that tried to kill me
I am out of it now but I bet you my life my subconscious has retained the memory until the day I die



But what if, Your show is playing games with you, like it makes you think you are out of it? :


Or did You so it kind of like this guy describes? :


https://youtu.be/ictUbyRBW6Y
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7271
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Shadow

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:57 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:But okay. You were in a war. Could I ask you to focus on that and tell me something, which applies to any of Jungs quotes above?


Well, as matter of fact, I was in a war.

Yes I didn't mean a hypothetical, its known you're a veteran of that war.
Thanks for the elaborations, this is interesting stuff to me, as it is directly pertinent and you answer your own question;

The Vietnam war. I went over there a gung-ho, red-blooded American Christian, ready to kick the Communists ass. I returned a radical left-wing atheist who tossed away his Bronze Star medal and Army Commendation medal with a V-device for valor on April 19th 1972, the one year anniversary of Operation Dewey Canyon III protest in Washington D.C. Just tossed them into a dumpster outside my apartment complex. At the time a very powerful and very personal experience. Just me, myself and I.

This would be the beginning of that moral effort.
I'd think.
But far from the end of it, as you also clarify.

Ironically enough, not more than a couple of miles from where I live now. And I've lived all over the Baltimore metropolitan area.

What's Baltimore like these days - you recognize it in The Wire?



But now, years later, I am considerably more ambivalent about all of the things I did back then. From the radical right to the radical left. Back in my own "objectivist days".

As for Jung, how would those here who share in any of the points he raised above react to what I did back then? How would the Freudians?

I would say that you threw yourself on the Shadow immediately, as did a lot of Vietnam veterans.
Their confrontation of it became a whole corpus of literature, music and film and formed a basis of a new national conscience.

But, the shadow is elusive.
As it is in oneself.

Jordan Peterson says of the Shadow that it is the capacity for cruelty.



Jung:

"The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge."

How does that fit into my reaction to the Vietnam war? Damned if I know. What the hell does this even mean in regard to any particular individual facing any particular situation in which moral and political narratives come into conflict?

Well yes, this is a distinction, a problem I also noticed;
We have the individual shadow and then he societal shadow which is far larger, and yet, the same.

The elusiveness of the shadow points to the mystery of separation and unity of the individual and his world. Thats a thought that comes to me now, writing this.

More to the point [mine] in terms of your own interactions with others involving "considerable moral effort", what does it mean to you?

Cite a situation you have been in that allows you to describe it more substantively.

it means so very, very much.
My life, dude, I can not even tell you a single detail. Its unfortunate. Lurkers.

But in general, Ive always made a great effort to bring to light the darkness where I would rather not recognize it.
One thing I can tell you: People who consider themselves "light workers" are usually the very opposite. Demons, sick people.

I suppose this is in part why I was so drawn to Nietzsche, and in particular his darker side. I never had the slightest faith in anything that wasn't addressing the very heart of darkness.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
valueontologyforsuperIQs - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 10931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Shadow

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:01 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:The question is why are people unaware of what is going on in their subconscious ?
A part of the answer is that the subconscious itself does not fully reveal itself to us

Also there may be those who do not want to look into the abyss for fear of what they may see
But this may be more preferable to not looking in at all - ignorance is after all not always bliss

Looking to deeply will break the average person.

Most "spiritual" people are wretched; their "spirituality" is merely an excuse to not look into their heart, which rots away as they preach of peace and love.
They will defile children telling themselves they are "healing" them. Their sexual urges ooze through the pores of their "body of light".
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
valueontologyforsuperIQs - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 10931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Shadow

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:06 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:Once done any action cannot be undone but introspection is always a process that will be ongoing until resolution has occurred
Sometimes it can simply be a question of allowing sufficient time to pass in order for the healing process to become complete

Other times it may require therapy because the individual cannot heal by themselves because they do not know how
There is so much we do not reveal to others but it is necessary for our well being that we try and do it to ourselves

Most therapists are simply projecting their own shadow onto their patients.
Ive visited around... Id say 6 therapists in my life, all but one for very short periods because they were completely useless and obscenely vain. The least bad of them was simply salivating over my stories and said to me that he'd never had such interesting casework. He did nothing whatsoever to help me with any of it and still took my money.

Ive had one good therapist though and I stayed with him for a year. He was able to identify a very important thing.
Even still he had all kinds of opinions about the human species and politics he was fond of sharing with me in the time I was paying for. But at least he wasn't projecting. I dare say this guy is pretty wise. He's also the only one of them that refused insurance coverage as it would compel him to share his diagnoses with the State.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
valueontologyforsuperIQs - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 10931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Shadow

Postby promethean75 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:29 pm

What precisely is the fucking shadow?


a very simple concept that has been turned into nonsense on stilts by an eccentric pseudo-scientific psychologist/mystic who needed to write some books to make some money?

this 'shadow' is nothing but that anachronistic and relatively unevolved part of the neurological and hormonal foundation of the psyche that was suddenly put into conflict with the 'higher brain' when modern societies came into existence and demanded moral restraint from the individual. freud covered all this in his psychic apparatus theory and remained mostly reductionist about it... something jung didn't do, hence, one of the reasons why freud ended his relationship with him. it's not ironic that freud once said of jung something along the lines of; he's not aware that his theories are symptoms of his own neurosis.

but basically what's been done is a kind of clinical vilification of natural drives and desires that come into conflict in a society that, because of how it is arranged, greatly amplifies and augments the circumstances that generate these conflicts. it's the battle between the id and the super-ego, more or less. in restraining the more anachronistic side of the individual, the individual undergoes a frustrating psychic split as he's forced to conform to the rules of society.

next comes the systematic distortion of the conscience by wind-bags like peterson and other modern psychologists who's intention is to vilify and 'make sick' those individuals who naturally resist the forces of civil domestication and conformity in modern society. now, the non-aggressive individual who is fully compliant to the sweeping changes and demands made by a modern society responsible for creating social relations jam-packed with new conflicts, is the healthy one.

but this is not to say that all 'shadows' are instances of some stronger side of man being hidden away and repressed for the purposes of social conformity. some 'shadows' are based in inferiority and ressentiment and can be counted as a manifestation of some kind of vengeful cruelty that's subconsciously harbored by the individual. take the 'rapist' example in peterson's video. he unequivocally characterizes all rapists as 'weak'. but while very many (and probably most) modern rapists are expressing a desire to control and hold power over the victim (this to compensate for their feelings of inferiority), some rapists simply just want to get laid and have no desire to humiliate their victims. they aren't on a quest for power and in no way feel inferior... nor do they secretly despise women.

the shadow of the former type is developed from within an environment that facilitates the production of males who's natural, anachronistic drive for sex is complicated further... i could even say complimented... by conflicts that constantly impede on his ability to satisfy those drives. while the shadow of the latter type exists independently and free of any sublimated conditioning that's involved in the creation of the vengeful cruelty that forms the basis of the inferior guy's 'shadow'.

this latter type wouldn't be 'weak' as peterson claims, because his id is not 'broken' by some super-ego that brings to bear an awareness of inferiority.

such an example could be used to analyze any particular instance of a 'shadow' and whether or not it is a center of psychic sickness or health. whether or not it is a product of a natural, anachronistic will unaffected by modern society's pressure to passively adapt to all the conflicts it creates, or a product of a poisoned conscience that forces frustrated and/or inferior people to endure their psychic split and keep the 'other' side hidden... in which case it inevitably finds a way out in expressions of ressentiment and revenge.

some shadows are great, others not so much. to make/keep the shadow - which is really only the 'id' - healthy and strong, quite a bit of intellect is needed to sort through the incriminating nonsense that modern psychology has made out of it and refuse to drink the kool-aid they try to sell you.

one very obvious fact is that in an environment where there are multifarious forms of competition... more cases of the 'sick' shadow are made possible, because there will be more cases of losers... and losers resent. not to say that these competitions aren't 'natural', of course. only to say that with them come certain kinds of consequences that might not exist in other environments in which no such competition exists.
promethean75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: Shadow

Postby felix dakat » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:52 pm

The unconscious psyche makes itself known only indirectly via images. These arise spontaneously as dreams, hypnagogic hallucinations, daydreams, slips of the tongue, earworms, etc. One can become more aware of the images by attending to them. According to my experience, the psyche is a wise and subtle trickster who knows more about me than I do consciously.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 8871
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: east of eden

Re: Shadow

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:46 pm

Promethean wrote:the non-aggressive individual who is fully compliant to the sweeping changes and demands made by a modern society responsible for creating social relations jam-packed with new conflicts, is the healthy one.

Peterson said an opposite kind of thing in the video I posted. He says that if you don't have capacity to be cruel, and don't express that in some way, you're nothing, useless. He expressed great disgust.
Now he does use mild examples of expressing it. Still, though either you misrepresent him or he says opposed stuff in different videos.

But I disagree with Peterson in his video as to what the Shadow is. Could be he just identifies his shadow.

What Ive gathered now: the shadow is not identical to the Id. As you said before, Shadow is more of a philosophical concept than the Id. It can mean more than just repressed animal drives. It is not merely sex and violence, at all. It pertains to more, it is more of a challenge to identify it and seems to be more personal, different persons seem to have very different types of shadow, whereas the Id is always kind of the same sort of thing.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
valueontologyforsuperIQs - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 10931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Shadow

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:55 pm

felix dakat wrote:The unconscious psyche makes itself known only indirectly via images. These arise spontaneously as dreams, hypnagogic hallucinations, daydreams, slips of the tongue, earworms, etc. One can become more aware of the images by attending to them. According to my experience, the psyche is a wise and subtle trickster who knows more about me than I do consciously.

I definitely share that last part with you.

But the Shadow is more than the Unconscious. Or, less. It is more specific. It is not everything we are unconscious of. It is something that is not merely absent, but actually lacking in our awareness. Something which should be there. Hence the moral struggle, I think. Something which, due to being missed, is present ever more potently, but uncontrolled. It thus manifests a hell of a lot less subtly than in Freudian slips and such - which I think mostly concern repressed sexuality. And how deep can one really repress sex? Everyone is always aware its really there for everyone. But the Shadow consists of things which we are really not aware of - in part because it is very particular to each person.

De-repressing sexuality is not a moral struggle. But bringing to light the shadow does actually involve overcoming great moral paradoxes.
I think thats the key. Paradox.
Jung was on to something very deep.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
valueontologyforsuperIQs - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 10931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Next

Return to Psychology and Mind



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users