a new understanding of today, time and space.

K: alas, it isn’t just about me, but also about the wife to whom I have been
married almost 25 years… whatever is decided, must be agreed by both and
therein lies the issues… we like our little, vastly overprice area we live in…

to me, almost anywhere else is a step down………
and she has never lived anywhere else whereas I have lived elsewhere…

well some more thought must be given to this…

Kropotkin

Peter, when can You retire?
Would Your life ease up a bit then?
Or are You caught in a meerygoround from which it is not possible to get off?

Maybe Your budget could allow a different standard which would weigh more then staying where You and Your wife live?

first part: meaning/purpose
second part: Kropotkin issue’s

the question of meaning/purpose should dominate our lives…

but let try another tack… let us take at random musician like
Miles Davis… How did Miles find meaning/purpose?

clearly he found meaning/purpose in the creation of music…

he found his meaning/purpose in the creation of music…

We can look at another artist, say a Poet, Walt Whitman…

he found his meaning/purpose in poetry, right?

well, Whitman practiced that nameless love that bigotry stills
holds in contempt…so was Whitman engaged in his affairs as his
meaning/purpose and then wrote about them later?

I can tell you from personal experience that matters of the flesh
are as temporary as it gets… we don’t find meaning/purpose from
the engagement of the body in fulfilling its lust…

meaning/purpose with another person lies not in the physical but in
the deeper engagement of the heart with another… we find meaning/purpose
with another by our mental/psychological/emotional parts of our body…

that is why we can find meaning/purpose in events,
writings, emotional actions……. we think it is the physical
actions/events that cause us or creates in us meaning/purpose…

but the connection we have that is about meaning/purpose is within
the mental/emotional/psychological part of us being human…

it is that search for connection that is meaning/purpose……

we connect with someone and that creates meaning/purpose…

now what is the major problem with the “modern” age?

we are disconnected with, alienated from society/ourselves/ the state…

that disconnect, that alienation is emotional, psychological, mental…

and that is the source of our alienation and disconnect from modern society/state/
culture… it isn’t physical, it is emotional, psychological, mental……

you can connect physically with all the people you can but it still won’t
allow that emotional, psychological, mental connection to exists with
society/the state/the culture… you so desperately desire…

we think our connections must be of the physical kind, but it is within
our emotional, psychological and mental connections that we must make
that allows us to become human…

let us follow this through: the final days of the Roman empire wasn’t about
a physical action… no, the final days were about the loss of the empire’s
connection with its citizens… the people felt disconnected from the empire,
they felt alienated from the Roman Empire… and that is why it fell… it isn’t about
a physical reason why the Roman Empire fell, it is about the loss of the connection
people felt with the empire that caused it to fall…

let us fast forward to today… we see millions of Americans feeling
disconnected from, alienated from America…this isn’t a physical feeling,
it is a disconnect, alienation from psychological, emotional, mental
disconnection… alienation…from society……

the America is see today isn’t the America I grew up with…

the America of my youth was a “shining city on the hill”
that was an example for all the world to become…
we were the “Moral” society, the society striving the most for
such values as justice, equality, personal achievement…

we have lost those values and replaced them with the negative values
of anger, hate, lust, greed, bigotry, prejudice… we are no longer that
shining city on the hill because of our adapting negative values……

we no longer hold the high moral ground… simple as that…
we no longer fight or engage with the higher standards of
human existence……… we engage with the lower level of
using extreme measures to defend our selves… when we
engage in such examples of Torture and assassinations
and such laws as the “patriot act” to reduce personal freedoms
and liberties, then we are no longer the city on the hill…

we are now like everyone else, just wrestling in the mud over
petty concerns about how much taxes we should pay…

we no longer consider the bigger, overall questions of morality
or what is right or what is possible…we have abandon the larger questions
that matter most and we have grown small and petty… that is not living
on the city on the hill…

you say, Kropotkin, these questions which you consider to be small and petty,
they are important question… and the fact you think they are important
questions show us how far we have fallen…important question are questions
that signify what kind of people we are, not how much we pay in taxes or
the partisan petty politics that people play in D.C… but the important
questions are the questions that define us as a people, as a state, as
a culture…to play petty politics over who has power and who writes the
bills aren’t important…these things too, shall pass…….

no, the valuable, important questions ask us, what does it mean to be human?

the valuable questions don’t ask us petty questions like, should homosexual love
be legal? no, the question isn’t about homosexual love, but the important questions
ask about the big questions like love, not who is loving whom, but is love happening?

the questions we should be asking are questions that allow connections to occur,
questions of bigotry and prejudice and nationalism, alienated and disconnect
people… are you white? that is a disconnect question, the only questions that
matter are questions that ask, do you love? Questions that matter don’t ask about
specific color or gender or race or creed or sex preference of people…
the questions that matter aren’t interested in the accidental properties
of people like skin color or nation you were born in or your nationality,
the questions that matter ask about what it means to be human…
regardless of your accidental traits……

does demonizing color people or people from other countries, does
that help people connect or does that disconnect people?

the answer should be clear but because we are no longer the shining city on
the hill and we don’t care about understanding what it means to become human,
we don’t know that demonizing people regardless of their race, color, creed, sexual
orientation… that demonizing people is to negate, dehumanize people, it is to
be nihilistic… the defining belief of our modern times is to hold to nihilism,
the negation and dehumanization of people… if we hold money to be of higher
value then people, then we are practicing nihilism…

our modern age has made nihilism the defining answer of our age and as such,
we no longer are the city on the hill… if we practice nihilism, then we
place money/profits over people, if we put such ism’s and ideologies over
people, like nationalism over people, then we are practicing nihilism…

one might ask, why are we no longer the shining city on the hill?

it is because we practice nihilism…our economic ism of capitalism is a study
in nihilism because it put money/profits over people…

if we ask the important question and all we can ask, is how much does this cost?
then we have fallen victim to nihilism…if we put material goods over the
needs of human beings, then we are practicing nihilism…

so what are the big questions? Questions that are engaged with people
as beings with needs that must be met… the irrelevant questions, the
unimportant questions are about the cost of programs or projects or
the tax rate…where people are secondary, at best, to the
materials/money/profits in question

we are disconnected, alienated from society/the state/the culture because
the society/the state/the culture has by its practice of nihilism, put
us second or even third in the overall priority in the land…

if we put the defense of the people first, then we are putting people
second…the primary point is the word, defense, not people…

and we have failed as a society/ as a state and as a culture…
if we put ism’s and ideologies over the needs of people…

and this is why the population of America has become
disconnected, alienated from America…

we are second, at best, to the nihilism that makes money/profits
and the pursuit of materialism/capitalism first……

we are no longer the city on the hill because we practice nihilism over
the benefit of the people…….

Kropotkin

my answer to both Meno and Tab…

my current situation is all about the possibilities that we find ourselves in…

I am old, and thus I have less possibilities then I once had…
it is less possible for me to uproot my life now then it once
was years ago… not impossible, but less possible…

my wife and I have talked about reducing expenses to allow me to retire,
but given our current economic situation, that doesn’t seem likely…

which leads me to the second part of being old, you become far more
risk adverse, in other words, risks that you have easily taken years ago,
you would not take today…I have become far more cautious in my old age…

it creeps up on one until one day, you sound off on the younger generation
and realize you hear the voice of your father or your grandfather…

and you ask yourself, when did I turn into my father or grandfather?

it is in that momentous moment that you suddenly realize that you are old…

much of what you say sounds great intellectually, but old age is
about the emotional argument ones hear inside your head…

I would have dropped everything 20 years ago and traveled the world,
perhaps even 10 years ago, today, not so much……
that is what being old means, you hold back because of the
prisons within your own mind that hold us old people back…

I despise people who are for IQ45 but I can see why they
follow that chipmunk, they are held hostage by their own
feelings and thoughts in old age… they are afraid and people
who live in fear make bad and irrational choices… like
bush Jr. and IQ45 today…

I am trying to avoid living in fear and darkness like those
clowns who wear those MAGA red hats… but somedays are
harder then other days…the battle we fight, the real battles
aren’t about fighting dragons or saving the virtuous maid from
the vile uncle, no, the real battle we fight lies within us
and is connected to our battle to rise up or to lower ourselves
into animals with animal values and beliefs…

I seek to become human and leave my animal past behind me…
and in doing so, I must reject the lower values of fear and hate
and anger and lust and greed and violence…….

I must accept the higher values of love, peace, hope, charity, honor,
honesty, non-violence………

to become human means, requires that I attempt to be “moral” even
if I don’t quite work out what being “moral” means… at least there
is an attempt to become “moral”…

as usual, the question is about being and becoming…

I am and who will I become?

Kropotkin

And what of the second part?

Kropotkin said:
“first part: meaning/purpose
second part: Kropotkin issue’s”

How does that fit in?

I made a second post afterwards…

Kropotkin

what values are the current values of that shining city on the hill?

that is being…

and what values should be the values of that shining city on the hill?

that is becoming…

Kropotkin

now some might say, Kropotkin, you are being naïve and totally lacking
in the “proper” judgement about what is the reality of today…

but I say unto you, it isn’t about what is, being, it is about what
is possible…it is about becoming, and the values we should
find inside of us… not about what are the values within us now,
for we are still fighting the battle between the animal side of us,
the hate and fear and violence and greed and lust that is animal,
and we must find the human values above us, love, peace, joy,
charity, non-violence…

it is not about who we are, but who we want to be that matters…

I would rather fail reaching for the stars then succeed with
remaining the same…

what are the values offered by IQ45?

They are the values of the animal, hate, lust, greed, violence,
bigotry and prejudice. Are those values the values upon which we
search for meaning/purpose?

the values of IQ45 and supported by millions are not the values upon
which we can use to become…you cannot build on values like
hate and anger and lust and greed and despair and violence…

build a house upon these values and the house will collapse under
the weight of its own negative values…….

try to build something with the values of hate or anger or violence…

say try to build a family with those negative values…

you will fail… it is as simple as that…

negative values cannot, cannot be used to build anything of value…

we must build our families and our homes and our community
and our society and our state and our culture with positive values
of love and charity and hope and joy and honor and non-violence…

but Kropotkin, you are ignoring the reality of our current modern society…

No, I am not ignoring it, I am saying build something better, build something
not made out of hate or anger or greed or lust or despair…

build something out of the positive values of being human…

being and becoming…

we are but we can be so much more if we aim higher then just being
animals with negative values…

what are the values of that shining city on the hill?

what values should we offer the world as we are the beacon
of light in the world?

we cannot offer up the values of IQ45 which are the negative values
of despair and only hoping for safety/security…

we must engage with the values that build people up which
are the value of freedom and liberty…

for in our search for security and safety, we have forsaken those
important values of freedom and liberty…

if we spend our time, money, effort on defending what is ours
and those are the negative values, then what is the point of defending
those values? they have no meaning or purpose that can be use to rise
higher then who we are now… there is no point in defending
the lower values of animals…we must sacrifice some safety and security
in order to achieve values worth defending, freedom and liberty
and hope and love and peace and charity…

which values are you in favor of defending?

are you just going to be or are you engaged in becoming?

being or becoming… that is the question…

Kropotkin

let us say you hold certain values,
either negative or positive…

the values you hold are the values you will see…

if you hold negative values, then you can only see negative values
if you hold positive values, then you can only see positive values…

so what values do you see in the world?

and that is… being…

and what values do you want to see?

that is becoming…

Kropotkin

Oh I get that completely. I was 27 when I decided to chuck my life in and get on a plane. My life in the UK wasn’t bad so much, as limited. I was living in a shared house with some of my best friends from the university we’d all just graduated from. I had no long term girlfriends, a series of awful soul destroying temprorary jobs, none of which utilized my degree, and a bicycle. :smiley:

Nothing very much to lose. And I could see my life stretching out ahead of me if I didn’t do something drastic, a very small grey life full of compromise and meh, as you say, meaninglessness.

I’m 52 now. Married like you for almost 25 years. A house, 2 kids. From time to time I feel a wanderlust. A homesickness almost for places I’ve never been to. But no escape until the kids get their lives sorted out lol. Those lovable little millstones :smiley:

The idea of chucking things in again and hitting the road is not very scary. Three things my life has taught me. People are people all over the world, they think the same things, say the same shit, worry about the same stuff - learn their language, respect their beliefs, don’t assume superiority and they will like you just fine. A land is just land, trees, water, rocks and sunshine. I can survive anywhere where people want to learn some english.

However. When I was 27, I was a healthy chap. Now, not so much. Wherever I went, I’d need a good pharmacy lol. And it would have to be somewhere sunny. So done with dreary climates. I fancy thailand or maybe south korea. I dunno.

As you say, having possibilities is nice. Don’t know if you’ve read, I think maybe it’s Black Swan. The author speaks of the importance of having “fuck you money” - money set by that if the worst comes to the worst, and your life becomes unbearable, you can take it out of the bank, fuck right off over the horizon and not have to sleep on the street or sell a kidney to live for at least 6 months to a year.

I have fuck you money. Even if I never use it, and end up leaving it all to the kids after I kick the bucket, just having it is a constant source of comfort.

I dunno what to tell you Peter. One last anecdote. A little dark. I have a friend, he’s a warrior soul, strong, self-sacrificing, who put the lives of his family ahead of his own for many years. He tried, luckily very unsuccessfully, to kill himself. Then he made a better decision to go see a shrink. He told me the only useful thing the therpist ever said to him was “you spent so much time making other people’s wishes come true, you forgot to have any of your own.”

40 years is a long time of putting food on the table. I’m assuming any kids you have are sorted out, or at least capable of being responsible for their own lives. You and your wife is another story, and none of my business. Eh, don’t be scared of change I guess, is what I’m saying. Good luck either way.

Removed

I have noticed, in my case as well as others, that we are
keen on “solving” the problems of other people and yet, when
it comes to solving our own issues, we are reluctant, at best, to
to engage in our own solutions…

I am just as guilty as anyone else in escaping my own problems
to attempt to solve other people problems…

I am now reading a biography of Da Vinci, and I come across
an interesting point… the writer of the biography, Isaacson,
mentions friction in regards to a perpetual motion machine…
friction prevents the creation of a perpetual motion machine
and that got me thinking about our very lives…

think of a ball going down a ramp… the ball going down
the ramp is slowed down by the friction created by the
interaction between the ball and the ramp… friction causes
energy to be lost… this is also true of both water and air…
we meet friction every time we walk due to the impact
of our bodies and the air and the same is true in water…
as we swim, the impact of body and water causes friction…

now let us examine friction in terms of our own lives…

as I go through life, I am getting friction from the actions
and desires of others… let us say, at work, I want to do my own thing,
but the managers demand that I follow their rules… this is creates
friction between their demands and my need to do my own thing…

if I don’t have anyone in line, the managers demand that we stand in front
of our checkstands or we are told to face items… which is to literally take items
on shelfs or in the coolers and face them toward the front… make everything even
on the shelfs… this is boring, tedious work that sucks time away from my being
able to take the down time to think about what is the meaning of life or what does
existence mean or what does it mean to be human?

I don’t want to face items because it prevents me from being able
to think about the matters that really count to me…

I face friction at work because of this… it slows me down…
each of us in our daily life face friction of some sort…
being married is a life long lesson in the act of friction…

doing the dishes or vacuuming is not conductive to my thinking
about what I consider to be important but trying telling the wife that…
it doesn’t end well… for me anyway…

we fight against this type of friction all our lives… it could be said
that our lives is a lesson in friction… human interactions is simple
a lesson in the various types of friction one can have between human beings…

I must admit, I have jealousy towards those philosophers who never married
and thus were able to focus entirely on their philosophical issues… instead
of being impacted by the friction we mere mortals face, when dealing with
other human beings…

that friction or interactions we engage with when we
interact with any other human being can be said to be life itself…

one question of humanity might be, how do we reduce the amount
of friction we meet when interacting with other human beings?

How do we set it up that we don’t meet with as much friction as we
do in our daily lives?

I cannot say today… I have been married over 20 years and friction
is a daily part of my life… that isn’t to say it’s bad, just that it
is always there…

how am I to personally reduce my friction in my daily life?

a philosophical question for brighter minds then mine…

Kropotkin

I just finished another biography, Da Vinci by Isaacson…

and I was thinking about stuff… and I thought about the very
idea of reading a biography, why do I read biographies?

over the last couple of years I have read a dozen plus biographies,
from Da Vinci to Darwin to Hesse to Hume to Hegel…

but why? what can I learn from a biography?
What do I want to know?

I want to know how these people viewed the world…
by what method did they use to view and understand the world…

what was their reaction to people, events, moments, idea’s?

I am trying to discover what these various people can teach me
about viewing the world…and how should I approach viewing
other people, events, moments and idea’s.

I guess it is a matter of perspective, by what perspective does
one view the world and the idea’s therein…

I view these biographies as teaching tools to discover what I can
take from or as the case may be, steal from other thinkers, writers,
artist, philosophers.

Good artist copy, great artist steal…as one wag put it…

the question of what it takes to be a human instead of animal/human is
at the forefront of everything I do or read… I read Goethe because he
was a human who was human because he explored his possibilities to
the fullest.

How, or by what means, can I explore my possibilities…

I see biographies as “how to books”… how to see and understand
the world and universe we live in…

but thought without action is barren and action without thought
is brutal and violent…

I must unite, in some fashion, the thoughts and actions, of one
Kropotkin……

how am I to act but within the confines of having thought about it…

I spend far more of my days thinking about what it means to be human
then I do writing about it… and reading biographies are part of that
reflection of what it means to be human.

in my other readings, I can see I am not very original in thought…
almost everything I have written has been written or thought of before…
but that doesn’t stop me or even slow me down… for the very simple reason,
given that human beings has reflected upon the status of being human
for over 10’000 years, it would be tough at this stage of the game to actually
have some completely original thought about what it means to be human……

so all I am doing is restaging old, ancient thoughts into modern words and language…
and I am ok with that…

but we are at a completely different ballgame in regards to
our current historical situation…we see in our “modern” world,
the influence or impact of those anti-human ism’s and ideologies
of nationalism and capitalism and communism and Catholicism
and all those other ism’s and ideologies that negate or dehumanize
human beings… ours is a nihilistic age and we must overcome that
which negates and denies human beings and their values…

so, the battle of being human in our modern age is slightly different
then it has been, say before the revolutions that changed the world,
the political, economic and social revolutions of science, the French,
the Industrial and the Russian…

we must have another revolution… and the basis of that revolution is
to overcome the nihilistic ism’s and ideologies of our “modern” world…

the question is really one of, can we human beings live without
ism’s and ideologies? or are we forced to have them in order to
give our lives, meaning and purpose?

does existence itself, by the very fact we exist, can that give
us meaning and purpose?

or must we have ism’s and ideologies to give our lives meaning?

can you live without the ism’s and ideologies of religions or political
or economic of the 21st century or must we exists within those nihilistic
values of our modern age?

can human existence, all by itself, give us enough meaning and purpose
to justify our existence without any reference to any ism and/or ideology?

if we live by values instead of ism’s and ideologies, we might be able to
find meaning and purpose in our lives…we can find meaning and purpose
in the values of love and justice and hope and freedom and charity…

if I live in the value of love, I might not need to hold to any such ism
and ideology as capitalism and communism and Catholicism, for example…

the values we hold can give our lives meaning and purpose…

we can dispose of all those destructive ism’s and ideologies
that populate our lives today……those modern ism’s and ideologies…

examine your life, know thyself… what ism’s and ideologies drive
your life and do you need, really need those ism’s and ideologies
to make sense of your life?

it is only by examining one’s life, can we begin to see
what is possible…

Kropotkin

question:

what is beauty and how does it relate to our “modern” world?

Kropotkin

Lol, you say that like it’s a bad thing. This way, at least someone somewhere is always trying to solve someone’s problems.

You could have just said “eh thanks for giving a shit tab but fuck off okay” :smiley: . I’m a big boy, I can take it.

I agree, there is always someone who is trying to solve someone else’s problems , and that is a comforting thought, and therefore there is nothing wrong with looking out for others even before one’s self.
Ultimately, that self will be captured by every-one’s concern , regardless of insight.
But then, it will need more than a summary dismissal, on optical levels.

K: you have mistaken my intent. If I wanted to
Say, fuck off, I would have… no, I was thinking
Strictly about me when I wrote it. In fact, I thank
Both you and Meno for your concern. No offense was meant in any, way, shape or form. Sorry if it came across that way.

Kropotkin

some things I never hear from those in power is comments
about beauty or love or passion…

How can we make the world a more beautiful place?

how do we increase the amount of love into the world?

can those values be found in the conservative world viewpoint?

NO, and a thousands times no…

no, because a conservative is about the lower values of anger
and hate and lust and greed and fear… you cannot get to beauty
or love with the values of anger or hate or fear or lust……

the second reason you don’t hear about beauty or love is because
those values are not marketable values… they can’t be bought or sold…
thus they have no value in a marketplace and thus worthless…….

only that which creates profits/money is considered to have value…

to create a more beautiful world cost money… it isn’t of value because it is more
expensive to create beauty then to sell beauty…

and to create beauty requires much more then time or money, it requires
some talent and perhaps, some genius…

as our world sinks to the lowest common denominator, LCD, which is to say,
to create beauty means one must be patient and care… and patience
and care are two commodities that the business world absolutely hates…

it takes too much work to be patient and/or to care…

it is too time consuming and business doesn’t have the time to do things
correctly or honestly or with patience because that takes time…
the only thing of value is to create profits/money… and the less time to do
so, the better…….

so Politicians never talk about the creation of beauty or love because
they take time to develop and politicians are always in a hurry because
they too believe time is money…….

the rush is to get something done, anything as long as it profits
the “proper” people…

but I go along with Da Vinci…he would start a project…
then he would leave it… for days, even weeks… and then he would
rush in and paint a stroke or two on the wall and then leave again…
and once again leaving it for days or weeks or even months…….

it wasn’t about the time it takes to create beauty or art or love…
it is about the time we take to get it right… days or weeks or even months…

you might say, that the creation of a infrastructure, building a bridge for example,
isn’t about creating art or beauty or love… but I say, why not?

you might say, there are budgets and time constraints and we must put
these things up as quickly as possible… and once again, putting
speed and haste and money before beauty or love or passion…

we are in such a rush to get things done we forget
that the things that last, the things that count, take time,
they take patience, they require effort and energy and passion…

who takes the time to create something with patience or effort or
with love or passion… No one these days…….

and why is the things we create and build so crappy these days?

I can only point to what it takes to create something of value
and to create something that will last…because we don’t take the time
and we don’t want to waste time or money or effort to build something right…

the act of creation isn’t a physical act… it isn’t about putting bricks into place
or building foundation walls or paving the streets…

the act of creation is a mental one… the act of creation is inside one’s head…
and that takes time and patience and passion and love……….

things the modern doesn’t have time for any more…

Kropotkin

I would have rather created one great brilliant thing then
hundreds or even thousands of average or modest things…

aim for the sun and if I burn up, so be it…….

I would rather crash and burn seeking greatness and beauty
then find satisfaction in some small wins, small victories…

to seek that one moment of perfection is worth a lifetime of
searching…….

to find 5 minutes of love is worth a lifetime of seeking…

what do you want?

are you simply seeking that which everyone else is seeking or are you
seeking something so rare and pure that only a few are searching for it?

I would rather seek that which is rare and pure and not find…
then find average moments which our day to day lives is filled with…

I would seek the impossible then find the normal…

Kropotkin

that’s a damn good kroquestion and i too am always engaged in an internal battle with myself over this problem. so my situation is this. there is quite a bit of material and circumstance in my life with which i could most certainly make myself a hero if i were to draw what N called that straight line; … a goal, a yes, a no, etc. but here’s the human, all too human problem. when the hero decides to commit to his deed, he forfeits the possibility of some other opportunity that might arise in the future, and therefore makes a gamble. then, he decides to wait… but that opportunity never comes… and he regrets having decided to wait. he repeats as necessary… he ‘puts it off’ again, and again. the hero then finds himself slowly losing his ambition through this eternal ‘putting off’ of the heroic deed, and ends up becoming a remorseful cynic wallowing in his own regret.

one time the old man told me after i got my ass kicked in the fifth grade: better to be a live chicken then a dead hero. what do you make of this, pete? it’s like damned if you do, damned if you don’t. i want to live, but i don’t want to be a chicken. likewise, i wanna be the hero, but i don’t wanna die, dude!

how cruel is my fate… that i’d ever have to make this decision. why couldn’t i just be a normal person with a mundane life and in no incredibly complicated shakespearean situation that calls upon my very soul to face with vigilant courage a truth that might destroy me if i were to demand it?!

tell you what i’m gonna do. i’m gonna make a deal with the devil, bro. i’m gonna forget about doing ‘the right thing’, forget about being a hero… and what i’m gonna do is take compensation for having to do the wrong thing by not doing the right thing. that is, the world is going to pay for my having to sacrifice my honor just so that i might live longer as a chicken. how about that?