Proof of an omnipotent being

I can imagine a room, a country or a whole world that is devoid of electricity (these are hypothetically possible things of existence to bring about). I cannot imagine the whole of existence as having being always devoid of electricity or becoming entirely devoid of electricity (not hypothetically possible of existence). Negation is a thing our minds can do. For example, I take my phone out of the room, the room is no longer with my phone in it. I have negated the phone out of the room. When you apply negation to existence, logical problems occur. For example, try negating a phone from existence. You cannot because it is absurd for something to come in or go out of existence. So people who claim they can imagine these kinds of negations are mistaken about what it is they are actually imagining. It’s like when someone claims they can imagine something coming from nothing. The “nothing” that they are imagining is not truly nothing. It is something. So it only looks as though they are imagining something coming from nothing.

You can imagine a world or a particular reality wherein which the kind of supernatural powers or magic you speak of don’t exist. Shooting lasers out of one’s eye is sufficiently and clearly meaningful. Therefore, this is something that existence can bring about.[/u]In other words, whilst I can credit you with imagining a world or reality that is devoid of such supernatural powers, I cannot credit you with imagining the whole of existence as being devoid of such supernatural powers. I can credit you with imagining existence as being devoid of square circles.

My focus is not on one particular reality. If it was, your point would hold. I am referring to the whole of existence. Existence encompasses all realities.

But I’m not equivocating between those two meanings. We don’t know if such a thing as a time machine is possible or not because a time machine is not clear and sufficient in meaning and logical implications. We don’t know all the logical implication regarding it. So we cannot say time machines are a possible feature of existence. But for example, if you said something like flying cars, then clearly, flying cars are a possible feature of existence. We don’t know if our human race will ever build flying cars, but we know that flying cars are a possible feature of existence.

We don’t know if a 6th dimension is a possible feature of existence or not. So we don’t know if it’s a hypothetical possibility. But we know that flying cars, unicorns, humans, omnipotence…and all other sufficiently and clear meaningful terms are features of existence. I am not equivocating between these two uses of the word possible. If what I say is wrong, then you should be able to give me something sufficiently clear in meaning and logical implications (that is not absurd) that has never existed and can never exist.

But logically speaking, omnipotence (like omnipresence/existence) is not a matter of possibility. Nothing can become omnipotent from a non-omnipotent state. For any given thing, when we don’t have all the premises, it’s possible that x is the case or x is not the case. When we have all the relevant premises, it’s no longer a matter of possibility. It is a matter of necessity:

It is necessarily the case that unicorns are possible
It is possibly the case that time machines are possible
It is necessarily the case that square circles are impossible
It is possibly the case that existence has a 6th dimension
It is necessarily (not just possibly) the case that becoming omnipotent is impossible
It is necessarily (not just possibly) the case that omnipotence is a feature of existence or that existence is omnipotent

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The “we know it can or can’t happen” is clear when the matter at hand is sufficiently meaningful and clear in its logical implications.

Can you give me something that is sufficient in meaning and logical implications (not absurd) that has never existed and can never exist?

Hi Ecmandu

Consent only comes into play once free-will is established. Your consent was not violated. Every act that you willingly do, you consent to. Whether that act is good or evil, is another matter. If it is evil, then you are in effect consenting to being evil, and therefore making it perfection for you to suffer in Hell. If it is good, then you are in effect consenting to being good, and therefore making it perfection for you to be happy in heaven. Where has your consent been violated?

Peace,

Nyma

Certainly real,

Even with free will it’s possible to never violate anyone’s consent forever.

When you stub your toe, did you decide that?

No. Was that your big plan for life that you worked up to?

EC,
By not being careful when you act, you consent to the consequences of a stubbed toe.

‘Possibility’ can refer to physical possibility, or logical/conceptual possibility. Physical possibility is a more narrow. (E.g., It is conceptually possible to imagine an apple that defies gravity and falls upwards, but that is physically impossible).

Premise #5 is extremely dubious, and weak, and problematic for you when you disambiguate ‘possibility’. Assuming it was strong, it would support only the conclusion that “omnipotence” is “conceptually possible” but “physically impossible”. But why would anyone want to support that conclusion :slight_smile:

This is usually a problem with ontological arguments that start from premises about what you can conceive of. --They end with conclusions only about what you can conceive of, not what actually exists or doesn’t.

You have no control over what happens to you despite the appearance of things suggesting otherwise. You cannot harm or benefit yourself an atom’s weight. At all times, you are at the mercy of the Omnipotent. It’s not Omnipotent if its power is not absolute. So long as God is not evil, God is Perfect. Is your consent being violated an imperfection?

All you do, is consent to what you want to be in terms of good and evil. Every instance wherein which you choose something, you literally choose. You literally consent to it. Where something happens to you that you did not want to happen to you, it does not matter if you consented to it or not. What matter is whether it was perfectly deserved or not. Everyone getting what they truly/perfectly deserve, is perfection and necessarily true of Existence/God. If what happened to you was perfectly deserved, then that’s perfection (even if you did not want it to happen to you or consent to it).

I think I understand where you’re coming from. I will try to convey to you where I’m coming from. Do you agree with the following:

Existence = Actually/truly infinite. Since Existence is Infinite, there is infinite time, space, and potential available for all hypothetical possibilities to come to pass. If something is hypothetically impossible, then it’s not a hypothetical possibility. Thus Existence has to be truly infinite for all hypothetical possibilities to be truly hypothetically possible. If Existence was not truly Infinite, then an infinite number of items of thought or hypothetical possibilities could not exist.

Do you agree with the above?

What, you just wanted to leave it at that? Show us you understand omnipotence (almightiness)!

Show us you understand true Perfection (God).

That which can do all that is doable. That which can bring about all hypothetical possibilities. This is a semantical component of God/Existence/Omnipotence

Perfection = that which no greater than can be conceived of. There is nothing better than a perfect existence. Your ‘perfect’ life is made better by existing in a perfect existence as opposed to an imperfect existence. Thus perfection is only true of a perfect existence and there is nothing better or greater than a perfect existence.

If an existence is such that not everyone gets what they truly/perfectly deserve, then that existence is imperfect. Only an Infinite, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent towards good, and Omnimalevolent towards evil Existence/God can guarantee that everyone gets what they truly/perfectly deserve (including Itself). Thus, Perfection is impossible without God/Existence.

Perfection = that which no greater than can be conceived of = a perfect existence = God existing
Perfection = a perfect existence = God existing
Perfection = God existing
God exists is a semantical component of Perfection just as being three sided is a semantical component of triangle.

A perfect existence is not perfect if it’s not existing. Thus existing is a semantical component of Perfection.

What you demonstrate here is not understanding, just knowledge.

https://hermetic.com/crowley/little-essays-towards-truth/knowledge
https://hermetic.com/crowley/little-essays-towards-truth/understanding

And who says anyone deserves anything, by the way?

The semantics of Existence, Perfection, good, and evil. All semantics are the way they are because Existence is the way It is. We are in Existence and we have access to these semantics. Thus, Existence says good deserves good and evil deserves evil.

That doesn’t follow. Also, what do “good” and “evil” mean? Is there more to them than just empty semantics?

It follows because semantics are infallible. If you want a more comprehensive answer, then I recommend that you read the first post here:

philosophyneedsgod.wordpress.com

Let’s say evil = that which is unfair/absurd and that that which is unfair/absurd treats x differently to how x ought to be treated. For example, if you treat a triangle like a square, then you are absurd because pure reason dictates triangles have three sides and squares have fours sides. You going against reason is you being unfair to Existence or absurd in relation to Existence.

So, if pure reason dictates Existence is Perfect (which it does) then it is absurd to treat or view Existence as anything other than Perfect. If you think x is a good person, you would not degrade x or treat as anything other than a good person (unless of course you are evil). So when pure reason (pure reason is higher in authority than empirical observations) dictates that Existence is Perfect, it takes evil/absurdity/unfairness to view It or treat It as other than that.

I am concerned by your belief that existence is paradoxical. How can you reason in a paradoxical existence? To say that you can reason in a paradoxical existence is to be absurd. I cannot reason with that which is absurd/paradoxical/irrational. None can do this. Not even you.

You know Certainly Real,

Some of this is salvageable. Unfortunately zero sum realities (with winners and losers) are by definition imperfect. (Since you think semantics are perfect).

It’s possible (and I know this for a fact) for existence to be constructed so that everyone can manifest their desires without harming anyone in any way shape or form.

Win/Lose realities are our current system. I’m on the project of a better system. I’ve pointed out abysmal flaws in win/lose realities elsewhere on this board, and to be perfectly honest, I’ve barely scratched the surface of it here.

For example (per your argument): if god is the only being who knows what’s good or bad, and can be the ONLY being who knows this, then everyone else (by definition) is ignorant relative to God. If they knew what your hypothetical god knew, none of them would ever do stupid shut - EVER!

How exactly do you punish mentally regarded people… talk about ABSURD! (Which you just defined as evil) - therefor (by your own words) you just contradicted yourself

What matters is that everyone gets what they truly deserve. It doesn’t matter if this is joy or misery. So long as it’s truly deserved, then that existence is perfect. So long as good people are the winners and evil people are the losers, then it’s all good.

Also consider this:

It’s perfection for everyone to get what they truly deserve. It’s perfection for good to be good. It’s perfection for evil to be evil.

In a perfect existence, it’s evil for evil people to be evil because evil people end up being on the receiving end of evil (misery, suffering, etc. all of which are evil for evil people because it harms them against their will and against their best interest).
In a perfect existence, it’s good for good people to be good because good people end up being on the receiving end of good (joy, happiness etc. all of which are good for good people)

In an imperfect existence, it’s not necessarily evil for evil people to be evil because evil people may end up being better off by being evil (which implies it was good to be evil…which is like saying it was round to be square). This literally suggests that there may be nothing evil about being evil and that it may be good to be evil. The semantics of good and evil, clearly only hold true in a perfect existence. In no other existence can they hold true.

When x rapes a woman and steals from her, if he knows he is harming the woman against her will and against her best interest, then he knows he is consenting to being evil. He knows he is committing evil. God knows he is committing evil too. The rapist doesn’t need to know what God knows. He just needs to know what it is to be evil. If he consents to being evil, then he consents to being put on the receiving end of that which is against his will and against his best interest all things considered.

You don’t. If a being is not aware that it is unjustly harming another being against its will and against its best interest, then that being is by definition, not evil. A robot that attacks people, is not evil. A person that knows what evil is and still commits to being it, is evil. You only punish evil. You try and punish a robot, then you’re either a child, mentally handicapped, or an actual idiot.

I’m going to repeat just this one line to you because it makes your whole premise absurd:

Ecmandu stated: “ If they knew what your hypothetical god knew, none of them would ever do stupid shit - EVER!”

What on earth makes you think that ANY BEING IN ALL OF EXISTENCE would EVER do stupid shit if they knew the consequences of their behavior?!?!

Anyone?!?! Everyone?!?!

Just out of curiosity, if there ever is any actual substantial proof that an omnipotent being does in fact exist, I would appreciate someone bringing it to my attention.

In other words, something considerably more substantive than an omnipotent being being defined or deduced into existence in a world of words.

That’s like saying if they were God, they would not do imperfectly or be imperfect. Or if they were omniscient, they would not do stupid things. I’m not denying that. But what’s that got to do with it being perfection for evil to suffer? Evil knows that it’s choosing to be evil. It’s not unknowingly evil. It doesn’t need to be omniscient to know that it is being evil. It’s not a robot. It consents to being evil whilst being aware of the semantics of justice and perfection. Evil can’t blame anyone other than itself for being evil because it chose to be evil knowingly. Freewill is a necessary semantical component to good and evil beings. An efficient robot is good in the sense that it is efficient. It is not morally good because it does not know what it is to choose to be good.

If you read all the posts in the link I provide without bias and prejudice, and with enough passion and sincerity for truth, I think you’ll have your proof.

philosophyneedsgod.wordpress.com

Actually, there are 2 problems with your reply here:

1.) most people think they’re good people, even the most heinous people

2.) tons of people have obsessions and compulsions that cause them to be out of control… the phinneus (sp?) gage example is classic.

I’m actually quite frightened by your mind that you think punishment for or from an omnipotent being is reasonable, or “perfectly correct”.

Omnipotent beings have WAY more at their disposal than your ‘perfect justice mentality’.

Besides, it can’t be perfect justice if people aren’t informed. And then you conveniently say, circularly, that it’s impossible for them to be informed, because there’s only ONE possible being who has consent in all of existence (your ‘proofs’), but even though you ‘prove’ that only one being has informed consent forever, that punishment is always perfect.

You know what I say to that bullshit. Do some real work with justice instead of assuming that someone’s doing all the work for you (and it’s always perfect), this is spiritually lazy. It’s a fantasy of yours to comfort and console you in a fierce existence, and, quite frankly, it’s quitting.