And wut I don’t understand is why - if you absolutely have to pick a god - u don’t pick Prometheus. He’s the indisputable badass of the whole fucking pantheon and prolly the most important one to man’s spiritualization of purpose. For one thing, his defiance characterizes better than anything else, man’s age of enlightenment and turning away from god. In a sense he’s the last god, because he banishes the gods by giving man fire and liberating them from the god’s tyranny. Bro there’s all kinds of critically important and empowering symbolism in that dude’s myth. Who even compares? He’s the ultima-archetype.
Find a promethean near u and b like him instead, Bob.
Whilst I agree that there have been too numerous ways in which religion and the church have failed, the way you are describing what you’d like to do is not working. The church is waning, but nothing is moving in to take its place. In fact, that is what has been seen to cause a meaning crisis with a moral vacuum resulting in mental health issues. Since the beginning of the enlightenment, we haven’t seen too many non-religious movements that have motivated people to join together in achieving higher moral goals, in fact were there any? Instead, there are new ideologies like wokeism causing even more division.
On the other hand, the church and diaconal social welfare policies have driven the building of hospitals, and care homes for the old and disabled at a time when it wasn’t profitable (especially in Germany, where I am). There are relatively new companies, like the Planetree Project that were doing good things in America, but people don’t seem to do things just because its good. Profit drives much of it today, whereas in the past it has been devotion.
The fact remains that these great guys may be attracted to an organisation gives ample space for “a wide range of human behaviours that facilitate strong, effective social action”. It would be good if they could find that space anywhere, but they usually can’t. I have known these great guys who have chosen non-Christian organisations and struggled with the profit orientation having priority over social action, even though the long-termed effect would be profitable.
Zeus chained Prometheus to a rock where an eagle daily tore at his liver, great.
He may have taught humans agriculture and all the arts of civilization and stole fire from the gods and gave it to them, but that doesn’t actually compete with the Sermon on the Mount.
There’s no cherry picking going on here. Nothing of history is being thrown out. There’s no denial of evolved behavior. Are you suggesting that there is no such thing as human freedom? Cuz on that point I’m going with the phenomena of freedom as experienced. In what system of values do you stand to make your judgment regarding all religious values are dangerous. The nihilism devoid of meaning that drives people to mass murder is rather dangerous too.
Just like with Christianity it depends on how the myth is interpreted. Fire can stand for technology. Technology has improved our lot as human beings in many ways. But humanity is also using it to destroy the planet. And the threat of nuclear war and outcome of technology hangs over us. So it’s no panacea. It needs to be encompassed by a higher vision of values if we are not to destroy ourselves with it. Where is that going to come from? Evolution? That process is too slow. If it comes it’ll have to be a matter of cultural evolution. And whether that can happen remains to be seen.
Incidentally, the interpretation which sees Jesus as a god walking on earth is an error. The story of the temptations of Jesus illustrates his true humanity. Serious temptation presupposes desire for that by which one is tempted. Like Adam and Eve, Jesus, as fully human, stood between innocence and guilt.
Wait u mean Jesus did the sermon on the mount? Wtf. My whole life I thought that was Moses. Well what’s the one where Moses got the commandments? He was up on a mountain wuddint he? That’s why I wuz thinking ‘mount’.
Anyway if I shot a porn I would call it ‘Sherman on the Mount’ and the protagonist’s name would be Sherman.
I appreciate the scholarship on this. It’s clear that you’re the most serious in building an argument here. Though Felix has something to offer he is, Im afraid, entirely tied by his wish that Christianity could be absolved of all its perversities. which it cannot. Just like nazism cant be ‘reinvented’ and suddenly be decent, Christianity cant just all of a sudden be something separate from what it has done to people - thats just what it is, its legacy, and forever will be. It has all the cruelty and of the Roman empire but added to that, a belief in itself as being innocent. So it is the most dangerously violent religion earth has seen. At the very least Islam, which is almost equally violent, doesnt quite have that pretense of being innocent, it knows itself as descendent of a warlord and respects itself as such.
It is due to Islam that knowledge of the Greeks has survived. Through Alexander, those writings were exported, gratefully kept and built on in Asia, and after the worst of Christianity was over in Europe, Islamic scholars came to Venice and such cities to share the old classical treasures.
That said, I think the age of spinoffs of Judaeism is sort of spent. I dont see great things coming for the two big monotheistic faiths. I just see that the Jewish god has delivered on his promise, and the others have not.
Fixed Cross–perhaps your personal encounter with professing Christianity was too negative for you to ever see what I see. There are people within my circle of family and friends for whom that’s true and who consequently don’t see what I see. In fact, most of them don’t. Maybe none of them do. So I’m not surprised. I don’t try to persuade them of my vision. I love them as they are.
Christianity is actually an offshoot of Hinduism (the Vedas). Gandhi said it himself after reading the Bible, “why change religions when everything in the Bible is already in the vedas?”
You people think I’m insane. That’s fine.
My ‘satanist’ side is actually a great defender by accusing god.
It helps people out a lot more than Hinduism or Judaism or Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Sikhism combined.
I will say this and you need to understand it:
You are completely innocent if you are ignorant.
This bears repeating:
Sin is consent violation. That’s all it is. Some are worse than others. It must be understood that every being in one way or another is having their consent violated. That means that existence itself is sin.
That’s a big load off your shoulders folks.
How do you live a ‘good’ life?
You give existence the middle finger and violate consent as little as possible.
Life viewings are a real thing. You will be judged.
Where does the buck stop?
With people like me. People who say “ha! Blasphemy? Fucking, they can’t even tie their moral shoe laces, give them a break”
Blasphemy is only a concept starting with Judaism. That’s where it came from. The one sin that lasts forever. You know what a guy like me did?
I came along and said, actually, karma is just a reputation system… you don’t have to have that loaded Jewish gun held to your head every second.
I respect you without reservations as I know you to be a very devout man in an intellectual integrity, and you dont shun debate nor waver from your trajectory. You could be a happy pagan but you choose to be a christian, and you are able to manifest your virtue in its terms.
My own heart is complex in that it is Russian Hebrew as well as Frisian (the proper Germanic tribe here) so I have a completely saturated genetics in terms of adoration, I can not find an integrity other than in these elements Ive been given; the pagan north and the rabbinical alchemists. Christianity to me, and Ive really engaged it very openly very often, gives me impulses which interfere with my virtues, lower them to a general standard, It is my kryptonite. Ive found this out the hard way and more often than is really sensible.
The problem is that there is a great decency in Christian life as a general rule. There is much to appreciate about the Christian world, obviously - but is it not more the classicist nature in which the gospels basically form a certain kind of axle? Does the christ really represent the story that it represents or is it a mask for an asceticism that is older and has more to do with perhaps Eleusis and Apollo than with Gethsemane?
Suggestions.
A good friend of mine takes christianity as an initiation pattern of I believe seven steps; the footwashing, the crown of thorns, etc -
yes I respect that too but I dont need protocol for sanctification. I think that itself is a form of blasphemy, precluding true sanctity - to prescribe rituals in general. It is often good, but nonetheless it can not aspire directly to the source of being; it can evoke great powers but it cannot itself be the Creator.
Now because I find this so remarkably to be true, so unavoidably real, I am drawn to authors such as Nietzsche and also Crowley, people who have knowledge about ancient worship and ideas about future worship. But more than that I find in my own sanctity a war with the cold christian fever, those eerie solemn caverns of remembrance of an awful fact and an incomprehensible instance, a memory of a split psyche that rules the world by giving itself away to it, the sheer audacity of taking this memory as the temple of power speaks to the poetic sense of the west, but it has been played out on a grand scale now and its mists are… well, no longer as intoxicating as they used to be and what remains is simply a tribe of culturally true people who refuse to let go of their quite strong tradition in the face of a world which certainly offers no reasons to surrender to other causes.
I am me, and I dont speak to christians when I speak of gods, I know the storm as my truest love ever since I can remember.
Much of what you say makes perfect sense to me. That which doesn’t, I’m trying to understand. I learned from a Buddhist that understanding is the way to peace. Gadamer says we all are standing in our prejudices. Where else could we be standing? Our prejudices are the judgments that have gotten us where we are in the present moment.The way forward, the way to peace, is openness to receive new light. The logos is the light that enlightens everyone in so far as they have light. And what is that light? Consciousness. That’s in the Prologue to the Gospel of John. And it runs through the perennial wisdom of the West which parallels that of the East. I don’t have to make this stuff up because it’s there. More people don’t see it because apparently their attention is focused elsewhere.
I appreciate your praise, although it is not scholarship, just keeping oneself informed. I generally check up on the facts I write before (or after) I write them, but before I post them. When I haven’t, it has been embarrassing.
Your comparison of Christianity with Nazism and Islam ignore the fact that the teaching if Christianity is different to its implementation, which is where the problem lies. It also overlooks the fact that all religions have scriptures that are antiquated to some degree, but the Gospels are also morally challenging, which is probably the biggest reason for the failure to implement its teaching into everyday life. Felix is right in his appraisal of the situation from a theological perspective, its history lets Christianity down, however.
It wasn’t just Islam that helped Greek culture to survive, otherwise it wouldn’t have played such a role in Christian education. Asia had its own traditions, so a comparison may have taken place, but it was by no means dependent upon transmission of Greek culture. In fact, it may just have been the other way around at an earlier stage, or both had a common source.
I was yesterday listening to a discussion of Alan Watts’ book, The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are, and decided to open it, since I have quite a number of his books. This is what he had to say:
At the same time, Watts saw a need for a transmission of some kind from one generation to the next, but saw it as having a different form.
Of course, his books have had that effect on people like me, but they haven’t been quite as effective on others. In GB I believe that Alan Watts is hardly known, especially not by the people on the street. In other countries I have to explain to people about who he is. His biggest following is in the USA or on YouTube.
This makes my point that I mentioned earlier in the thread: Alternatives to Christianity in the West just don’t do the job they want to. People are intellectually lazy, and they need to form habits and rituals to keep them at whatever good they have discovered.
Sean D. Kelley says that Heidegger’s intention when writing Being and Time was to write the fundamental ontology. But he never finished the book because he came to realize that it cannot be written because the mode of being is different in every epoch.
The difference between epochs as modes of being is clearly illustrated by the Christian Bible. The Old and the New Testaments are two different epochs. The books of the latter Prophets in the Old Testament represent a transitional stage between the two.
To live in a different epoch is to live in a different world. It’s a different cosmology. It is as if one lives in a different universe.
The modern age took us out of the West’s Christian epoch and now we are transitioning out of modernity. To read the works of a different epoch and not see the difference is to misunderstand the writer’s world. I find this is true even when reading works from the 20th century. Even Martin Heidegger’s Being and Time could be subtitled “in the modern age”.
The strident militantism of American Evangelicals gets its character from it’s hostility in reaction to an epoch hostile to it. With the election of President Donald Trump, con man and pathological liar, the majority of American evangelicals passed from mass neurosis to mass psychosis wherein they must sever touch with reality in order to maintain their world.
I find it ironic when Jordan Peterson inveighs against postmodernism because that’s the ocean he’s swimming in and without it he wouldn’t have relevance or an audience. I see him as a psychological apologist for the perennial philosophy as an alternative mode of being.
Anyway Christianity’s original symbol was the fish which swam in the waters of a world that was not its own. Insofar is it survives and thrives, Christians must learn to do that again. Perhaps it will rediscover the spirit of its prototype, Jesus the Messiah in the process. The world the church created was as alien to Christ as the one that crucified him. Dostoevsky clearly made this point in Brothers Karamazov in the parable in which Jesus comes before the Grand Inquisitor who tells him the church no longer needs him an instructs him never to return
Incidentally the “Sermon on the Mount” was not a reference to Moses.