The Christ and the Power

felix_dakat · October 24, 2021, 6:10pm

aniceguy:

The need to find God is already there in the texts of Plato. The Greco-Roman philosophical era into which Christianity was born is appropriately called Middle Platonism.
Christian Platonism is already there in the New Testament. The Pauline and Johannine texts can’t be rightly understood without it.

Jesus spoke Aramaic but the New Testament is written in Greek. So the authors would have had a Greek education and been exposed to Greek philosophy which is reflected in their presuppositions.

Incidentally, Buddha did not believe in God according to anything I’ve read attributed to him.

That Greco-Roman philosophical era is not called Middle Platonism but the Platonic thinking which occurred in that era is called Middle Platonism and the need to find God in Plato is different to the Christian one and to the Thomistic one; Platonic God is not personal and is not personally demanding of anything. As to your claims on the origins of New Testament, we dont know enough to say definitely. Where is your historical evidence that St Paul was inspired by Platonism when writing his share of the New Testament?

Cognizant as I am of the dangers of proof texting out of context, in the interest of moving the dialogue along one point at a time, read 2 Corinthians 4:18 which says" we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." and

1 Corinthians 13:12 "for now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. "

Compare that with the Plato who says in Phaedrus “all embodied souls do not easily recall the things of the other world…they may have lost the memory of the holy things they once saw for there is comparatively no light of justice or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls in the earthly copies of: they are seen through a glass dimly; and there are a few who going to the images, behold in them the realities, and these only with difficulty”.

MagsJ · October 24, 2021, 6:13pm

_

Part of the cross awarded to Helena’s mission was taken to Rome (the other remained in Jerusalem) and, according to tradition, a large part of the remains are preserved in the Basilica of the Holy Cross in the Italian capital.2 Apr 2021

The New American Standard Bible is a literal translation from the original texts, well suited to study because of its accurate rendering of the source texts. It follows the style of the King James Version but uses modern English for words that have fallen out of use or changed their meanings.

Sculptor · October 24, 2021, 6:52pm

Jesus is dead.
Powerless, misused, misunderstood, exploited.

The last absurd abuse I saw was a clown in a ten gallon hat praying with the crowd at the Capitol for god to help him and the crowd of 15,000 morons to overthrow their own government. “Doin, Jezuz’ work!”

aniceguy · October 24, 2021, 7:02pm

Cognizant as I am of the dangers of proof texting out of context, in the interest of moving the dialogue along one point at a time, read 2 Corinthians 4:18 which says" we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." and

1 Corinthians 13:12 "for now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. "

Compare that with the Plato who says in Phaedrus “all embodied souls do not easily recall the things of the other world…they may have lost the memory of the holy things they once saw for there is comparatively no light of justice or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls in the earthly copies of: they are seen through a glass dimly; and there are a few who going to the images, behold in them the realities, and these only with difficulty”.

This is a quote about coming to be judged as what you are after death and going to heaven for an eternity.

This is about universal God substance that can be weakly explored. Mirror and reflections mean a completely different thing in the two instances. Platos other worlds are before, during and afterwards, Christian are strictly after ones death.
I just noticed: Plato uses glass, Paul uses mirror.

Thus far I have been speaking of the fourth and last kind of madness,
which is imputed to him who, when he sees the beauty of earth, is
transported with the recollection of the true beauty; he would like
to fly away, but he cannot; he is like a bird fluttering and looking
upward and careless of the world below; and he is therefore thought
to be mad. And I have shown this of all inspirations to be the noblest
and highest and the offspring of the highest to him who has or shares
in it, and that he who loves the beautiful is called a lover because
he partakes of it. For, as has been already said, every soul of man
has in the way of nature beheld true being; this was the condition
of her passing into the form of man. But all souls do not easily recall
the things of the other world; they may have seen them for a short
time only, or they may have been unfortunate in their earthly lot,
and, having had their hearts turned to unrighteousness through some
corrupting influence, they may have lost the memory of the holy things
which once they saw. Few only retain an adequate remembrance of them;
and they, when they behold here any image of that other world, are
rapt in amazement; but they are ignorant of what this rapture means,
because they do not clearly perceive. For there is no light of justice
or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls
in the earthly copies of them: they are seen through a glass dimly;
and there are few who, going to the images, behold in them the
realities,
and these only with difficulty. There was a time when with the rest
of the happy band they saw beauty shining in brightness-we philosophers
following in the train of Zeus, others in company with other gods;
and then we beheld the beatific vision and were initiated into a mystery
which may be truly called most blessed, celebrated by us in our state
of innocence, before we had any experience of evils to come, when
we were admitted to the sight of apparitions innocent and simple and
calm and happy, which we beheld shining impure light, pure ourselves
and not yet enshrined in that living tomb which we carry about, now
that we are imprisoned in the body, like an oyster in his shell. Let
me linger over the memory of scenes which have passed away.

Full quote. Platos emphasis is mystical experience.

Ten thousand years must elapse before the soul of each one can return
to the place from whence she came, for she cannot grow her wings in
less; only the soul of a philosopher, guileless and true, or the soul
of a lover, who is not devoid of philosophy, may acquire wings in
the third of the recurring periods of a thousand years; he is
distinguished
from the ordinary good man who gains wings in three thousand years:-and
they who choose this life three times in succession have wings given
them, and go away at the end of three thousand years. But the others
receive judgment when they have completed their first life, and after
the judgment they go, some of them to the houses of correction which
are under the earth, and are punished; others to some place in heaven
whither they are lightly borne by justice, and there they live in
a manner worthy of the life which they led here when in the form of
men. And at the end of the first thousand years the good souls and
also the evil souls both come to draw lots and choose their second
life, and they may take any which they please. The soul of a man may
pass into the life of a beast, or from the beast return again into
the man. But the soul which has never seen the truth will not pass
into the human form. For a man must have intelligence of universals,
and be able to proceed from the many particulars of sense to one
conception
of reason;-this is the recollection of those things which our soul
once saw while following God-when regardless of that which we now
call being she raised her head up towards the true being. And therefore
the mind of the philosopher alone has wings; and this is just, for
he is always, according to the measure of his abilities, clinging
in recollection to those things in which God abides, and in beholding
which He is what He is. And he who employs aright these memories is
ever being initiated into perfect mysteries and alone becomes truly
perfect. But, as he forgets earthly interests and is rapt in the divine,
the vulgar deem him mad, and rebuke him; they do not see that he is
inspired.

Thus far I have been speaking of the fourth and last kind of madness,
which is imputed to him who, when he sees the beauty of earth, is
transported with the recollection of the true beauty; he would like
to fly away, but he cannot; he is like a bird fluttering and looking
upward and careless of the world below; and he is therefore thought
to be mad. And I have shown this of all inspirations to be the noblest
and highest and the offspring of the highest to him who has or shares
in it, and that he who loves the beautiful is called a lover because
he partakes of it. For, as has been already said, every soul of man
has in the way of nature beheld true being; this was the condition
of her passing into the form of man. But all souls do not easily recall
the things of the other world; they may have seen them for a short
time only, or they may have been unfortunate in their earthly lot,
and, having had their hearts turned to unrighteousness through some
corrupting influence, they may have lost the memory of the holy things
which once they saw. Few only retain an adequate remembrance of them;
and they, when they behold here any image of that other world, are
rapt in amazement; but they are ignorant of what this rapture means,
because they do not clearly perceive. For there is no light of justice
or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls
in the earthly copies of them: they are seen through a glass dimly;
and there are few who, going to the images, behold in them the
realities,
and these only with difficulty. There was a time when with the rest
of the happy band they saw beauty shining in brightness-we philosophers
following in the train of Zeus, others in company with other gods;
and then we beheld the beatific vision and were initiated into a mystery
which may be truly called most blessed, celebrated by us in our state
of innocence, before we had any experience of evils to come, when
we were admitted to the sight of apparitions innocent and simple and
calm and happy, which we beheld shining impure light, pure ourselves
and not yet enshrined in that living tomb which we carry about, now
that we are imprisoned in the body, like an oyster in his shell. Let
me linger over the memory of scenes which have passed away.

Passages leading up to your quote.

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Full Biblical passage.

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 7:05pm

aniceguy:

Pedro I Rengel:

Persians haven’t really been relevant since the Sassanids, you know what I’m saying? They were just a province of the Arab empire. Which is why their holy books are written in Arabic.

Well, ok, no, within the Arab empire they were a force. Within the Arab empire.

You talk about some crusades? Arabs were putting out a book that would be the basis for all mathematics in the civilized world until our days while Charles Martel was still asking priests for permission and Israel was safely in Arab custody.

Psh.

I think you got it backwards buddy…Sassanids were the cultural and civilizational force which the Islamic civilisation rode on for some time…then thrashed it. Your Islamic golden age coincidentally starts at exactly the same time Islam conquers the Sassanid empire and appropriates it. Lets look further, though…Mongol Invasion in 1200, fine…but what about the Ottoman empire???The power was there, the independence was there…what did your Islam produce then???What does your Islam produce nowadays??? Take the oil and what are they???What civilisation prowess is there to show for???Cutting off wives noses???

Well, you all are showing strong feelings about Arabs, but not much else.

Yes, the Arabs drew from the Sassanids, as from the Hindus, the Romans, the Greeks, the Jews, hell even the Chinese. A people superior to you in every way.

The Ottoman empire is the Mongols lol. The Mongols were not quite as advanced as the Arabs, but considerably more advanced than the goths, and were able to carry on a heavily subdued cultural legacy. Nothing like the Arab splendor, that’s for sure.

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 7:06pm

Dude, youds…

Ah, whatever.

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 7:07pm

Surely, though, we are all aware that religion existed before hand and even the likes of Heraclitus dedicate considerable character space to it.

We are, aren’t we?

aniceguy · October 24, 2021, 7:14pm

Thus far I have been speaking of the fourth and last kind of madness,
which is imputed to him who, when he sees the beauty of earth, is
transported with the recollection of the true beauty; he would like
to fly away, but he cannot; he is like a bird fluttering and looking
upward and careless of the world below; and he is therefore thought
to be mad. And I have shown this of all inspirations to be the noblest
and highest and the offspring of the highest to him who has or shares
in it, and that he who loves the beautiful is called a lover because
he partakes of it. For, as has been already said, every soul of man
has in the way of nature beheld true being; this was the condition
of her passing into the form of man. But all souls do not easily recall
the things of the other world; they may have seen them for a short
time only, or they may have been unfortunate in their earthly lot,
and, having had their hearts turned to unrighteousness through some
corrupting influence, they may have lost the memory of the holy things
which once they saw. Few only retain an adequate remembrance of them;
and they, when they behold here any image of that other world, are
rapt in amazement; but they are ignorant of what this rapture means,
because they do not clearly perceive. For there is no light of justice
or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls
in the earthly copies of them: they are seen through a glass dimly;
and there are few who, going to the images, behold in them the
realities,
and these only with difficulty. There was a time when with the rest
of the happy band they saw beauty shining in brightness-we philosophers
following in the train of Zeus, others in company with other gods;
and then we beheld the beatific vision and were initiated into a mystery
which may be truly called most blessed, celebrated by us in our state
of innocence, before we had any experience of evils to come, when
we were admitted to the sight of apparitions innocent and simple and
calm and happy, which we beheld shining impure light, pure ourselves
and not yet enshrined in that living tomb which we carry about, now
that we are imprisoned in the body, like an oyster in his shell. Let
me linger over the memory of scenes which have passed away.

Full quote.

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 7:16pm

Of vat?

aniceguy · October 24, 2021, 7:30pm

Pedro I Rengel:

aniceguy:

Pedro I Rengel:

Persians haven’t really been relevant since the Sassanids, you know what I’m saying? They were just a province of the Arab empire. Which is why their holy books are written in Arabic.

Well, ok, no, within the Arab empire they were a force. Within the Arab empire.

You talk about some crusades? Arabs were putting out a book that would be the basis for all mathematics in the civilized world until our days while Charles Martel was still asking priests for permission and Israel was safely in Arab custody.

Psh.

I think you got it backwards buddy…Sassanids were the cultural and civilizational force which the Islamic civilisation rode on for some time…then thrashed it. Your Islamic golden age coincidentally starts at exactly the same time Islam conquers the Sassanid empire and appropriates it. Lets look further, though…Mongol Invasion in 1200, fine…but what about the Ottoman empire???The power was there, the independence was there…what did your Islam produce then???What does your Islam produce nowadays??? Take the oil and what are they???What civilisation prowess is there to show for???Cutting off wives noses???

Well, you all are showing strong feelings about Arabs, but not much else.

Yes, the Arabs drew from the Sassanids, as from the Hindus, the Romans, the Greeks, the Jews, hell even the Chinese. A people superior to you in every way.

The Ottoman empire is the Mongols lol. The Mongols were not quite as advanced as the Arabs, but considerably more advanced than the goths, and were able to carry on a heavily subdued cultural legacy. Nothing like the Arab splendor, that’s for sure.

lol ok buddy, dont forget to add that the Mongol Invasion which happened 400 years after the Caliphate Invasion saved the Franks from it in 800s and the root cause of it all was stopping the Nordic invasions which occurred way before the Mongols even arose and moved West. we have Vikings being beaten by Mongols before Mongols were present in the lands where Vikings were present and then we have Mongols saving Franks by invading their enemies 400 hundred years after Martel died…what the fuck are you even talking about bro. just shut the fuck up and save some face bro.

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 7:40pm

Who said that shit? Are you stupid?

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 7:41pm

You must be stupid.

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 7:43pm

Or maybe just have a nazi agenda.

They tend to look exactly the same.

J.

felix_dakat · October 24, 2021, 7:55pm

aniceguy:

Cognizant as I am of the dangers of proof texting out of context, in the interest of moving the dialogue along one point at a time, read 2 Corinthians 4:18 which says" we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." and

1 Corinthians 13:12 "for now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. "

Compare that with the Plato who says in Phaedrus “all embodied souls do not easily recall the things of the other world…they may have lost the memory of the holy things they once saw for there is comparatively no light of justice or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls in the earthly copies of: they are seen through a glass dimly; and there are a few who going to the images, behold in them the realities, and these only with difficulty”.

12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

This is a quote about coming to be judged as what you are after death and going to heaven for an eternity.

“all embodied souls do not easily recall the things of the other world…they may have lost the memory of the holy things they once saw for there is comparatively no light of justice or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls in the earthly copies of: they are seen through a glass dimly; and there are a few who going to the images, behold in them the realities, and these only with difficulty”.

This is about universal God substance that can be weakly explored. Mirror and reflections mean a completely different thing in the two instances. Platos other worlds are before, during and afterwards, Christian are strictly after ones death.
I just noticed: Plato uses glass, Paul uses mirror.

Thus far I have been speaking of the fourth and last kind of madness,
which is imputed to him who, when he sees the beauty of earth, is
transported with the recollection of the true beauty; he would like
to fly away, but he cannot; he is like a bird fluttering and looking
upward and careless of the world below; and he is therefore thought
to be mad. And I have shown this of all inspirations to be the noblest
and highest and the offspring of the highest to him who has or shares
in it, and that he who loves the beautiful is called a lover because
he partakes of it. For, as has been already said, every soul of man
has in the way of nature beheld true being; this was the condition
of her passing into the form of man. But all souls do not easily recall
the things of the other world; they may have seen them for a short
time only, or they may have been unfortunate in their earthly lot,
and, having had their hearts turned to unrighteousness through some
corrupting influence, they may have lost the memory of the holy things
which once they saw. Few only retain an adequate remembrance of them;
and they, when they behold here any image of that other world, are
rapt in amazement; but they are ignorant of what this rapture means,
because they do not clearly perceive. For there is no light of justice
or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls
in the earthly copies of them: they are seen through a glass dimly;
and there are few who, going to the images, behold in them the
realities,
and these only with difficulty. There was a time when with the rest
of the happy band they saw beauty shining in brightness-we philosophers
following in the train of Zeus, others in company with other gods;
and then we beheld the beatific vision and were initiated into a mystery
which may be truly called most blessed, celebrated by us in our state
of innocence, before we had any experience of evils to come, when
we were admitted to the sight of apparitions innocent and simple and
calm and happy, which we beheld shining impure light, pure ourselves
and not yet enshrined in that living tomb which we carry about, now
that we are imprisoned in the body, like an oyster in his shell. Let
me linger over the memory of scenes which have passed away.

Full quote. Platos emphasis is mystical experience.

Ten thousand years must elapse before the soul of each one can return
to the place from whence she came, for she cannot grow her wings in
less; only the soul of a philosopher, guileless and true, or the soul
of a lover, who is not devoid of philosophy, may acquire wings in
the third of the recurring periods of a thousand years; he is
distinguished
from the ordinary good man who gains wings in three thousand years:-and
they who choose this life three times in succession have wings given
them, and go away at the end of three thousand years. But the others
receive judgment when they have completed their first life, and after
the judgment they go, some of them to the houses of correction which
are under the earth, and are punished; others to some place in heaven
whither they are lightly borne by justice, and there they live in
a manner worthy of the life which they led here when in the form of
men. And at the end of the first thousand years the good souls and
also the evil souls both come to draw lots and choose their second
life, and they may take any which they please. The soul of a man may
pass into the life of a beast, or from the beast return again into
the man. But the soul which has never seen the truth will not pass
into the human form. For a man must have intelligence of universals,
and be able to proceed from the many particulars of sense to one
conception
of reason;-this is the recollection of those things which our soul
once saw while following God-when regardless of that which we now
call being she raised her head up towards the true being. And therefore
the mind of the philosopher alone has wings; and this is just, for
he is always, according to the measure of his abilities, clinging
in recollection to those things in which God abides, and in beholding
which He is what He is. And he who employs aright these memories is
ever being initiated into perfect mysteries and alone becomes truly
perfect. But, as he forgets earthly interests and is rapt in the divine,
the vulgar deem him mad, and rebuke him; they do not see that he is
inspired.

Thus far I have been speaking of the fourth and last kind of madness,
which is imputed to him who, when he sees the beauty of earth, is
transported with the recollection of the true beauty; he would like
to fly away, but he cannot; he is like a bird fluttering and looking
upward and careless of the world below; and he is therefore thought
to be mad. And I have shown this of all inspirations to be the noblest
and highest and the offspring of the highest to him who has or shares
in it, and that he who loves the beautiful is called a lover because
he partakes of it. For, as has been already said, every soul of man
has in the way of nature beheld true being; this was the condition
of her passing into the form of man. But all souls do not easily recall
the things of the other world; they may have seen them for a short
time only, or they may have been unfortunate in their earthly lot,
and, having had their hearts turned to unrighteousness through some
corrupting influence, they may have lost the memory of the holy things
which once they saw. Few only retain an adequate remembrance of them;
and they, when they behold here any image of that other world, are
rapt in amazement; but they are ignorant of what this rapture means,
because they do not clearly perceive. For there is no light of justice
or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls
in the earthly copies of them: they are seen through a glass dimly;
and there are few who, going to the images, behold in them the
realities,
and these only with difficulty. There was a time when with the rest
of the happy band they saw beauty shining in brightness-we philosophers
following in the train of Zeus, others in company with other gods;
and then we beheld the beatific vision and were initiated into a mystery
which may be truly called most blessed, celebrated by us in our state
of innocence, before we had any experience of evils to come, when
we were admitted to the sight of apparitions innocent and simple and
calm and happy, which we beheld shining impure light, pure ourselves
and not yet enshrined in that living tomb which we carry about, now
that we are imprisoned in the body, like an oyster in his shell. Let
me linger over the memory of scenes which have passed away.

Passages leading up to your quote.

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Full Biblical passage.

And what of 2 Corinthians 4:18 that I cited above which says “we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal” ? You don’t see the consistency of that statement with Platonism?

aniceguy · October 24, 2021, 10:44pm

you did you moron, you clearly said the Mongol invasion saved the Franks and the rest of the Central Europe from the Caliphate.

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 10:45pm

You are stupider than a can of worms.

aniceguy · October 24, 2021, 10:46pm

i could dig back and quote you but i dont really give a shit xd

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 10:48pm

Do it fuckface, quote me.

Here, you can use my shovel.

aniceguy · October 24, 2021, 10:49pm

In the context of the whole passage, no. How do you interpret the whole passage?

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 10:50pm

Imagine if, instead of a Pole, you were a Russian-Jewish Dutchman.

This whole nazi shit would be most unseemly.