The Christ and the Power

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 7:43pm

Or maybe just have a nazi agenda.

They tend to look exactly the same.

J.

felix_dakat · October 24, 2021, 7:55pm

aniceguy:

Cognizant as I am of the dangers of proof texting out of context, in the interest of moving the dialogue along one point at a time, read 2 Corinthians 4:18 which says" we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." and

1 Corinthians 13:12 "for now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. "

Compare that with the Plato who says in Phaedrus “all embodied souls do not easily recall the things of the other world…they may have lost the memory of the holy things they once saw for there is comparatively no light of justice or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls in the earthly copies of: they are seen through a glass dimly; and there are a few who going to the images, behold in them the realities, and these only with difficulty”.

12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

This is a quote about coming to be judged as what you are after death and going to heaven for an eternity.

“all embodied souls do not easily recall the things of the other world…they may have lost the memory of the holy things they once saw for there is comparatively no light of justice or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls in the earthly copies of: they are seen through a glass dimly; and there are a few who going to the images, behold in them the realities, and these only with difficulty”.

This is about universal God substance that can be weakly explored. Mirror and reflections mean a completely different thing in the two instances. Platos other worlds are before, during and afterwards, Christian are strictly after ones death.
I just noticed: Plato uses glass, Paul uses mirror.

Thus far I have been speaking of the fourth and last kind of madness,
which is imputed to him who, when he sees the beauty of earth, is
transported with the recollection of the true beauty; he would like
to fly away, but he cannot; he is like a bird fluttering and looking
upward and careless of the world below; and he is therefore thought
to be mad. And I have shown this of all inspirations to be the noblest
and highest and the offspring of the highest to him who has or shares
in it, and that he who loves the beautiful is called a lover because
he partakes of it. For, as has been already said, every soul of man
has in the way of nature beheld true being; this was the condition
of her passing into the form of man. But all souls do not easily recall
the things of the other world; they may have seen them for a short
time only, or they may have been unfortunate in their earthly lot,
and, having had their hearts turned to unrighteousness through some
corrupting influence, they may have lost the memory of the holy things
which once they saw. Few only retain an adequate remembrance of them;
and they, when they behold here any image of that other world, are
rapt in amazement; but they are ignorant of what this rapture means,
because they do not clearly perceive. For there is no light of justice
or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls
in the earthly copies of them: they are seen through a glass dimly;
and there are few who, going to the images, behold in them the
realities,
and these only with difficulty. There was a time when with the rest
of the happy band they saw beauty shining in brightness-we philosophers
following in the train of Zeus, others in company with other gods;
and then we beheld the beatific vision and were initiated into a mystery
which may be truly called most blessed, celebrated by us in our state
of innocence, before we had any experience of evils to come, when
we were admitted to the sight of apparitions innocent and simple and
calm and happy, which we beheld shining impure light, pure ourselves
and not yet enshrined in that living tomb which we carry about, now
that we are imprisoned in the body, like an oyster in his shell. Let
me linger over the memory of scenes which have passed away.

Full quote. Platos emphasis is mystical experience.

Ten thousand years must elapse before the soul of each one can return
to the place from whence she came, for she cannot grow her wings in
less; only the soul of a philosopher, guileless and true, or the soul
of a lover, who is not devoid of philosophy, may acquire wings in
the third of the recurring periods of a thousand years; he is
distinguished
from the ordinary good man who gains wings in three thousand years:-and
they who choose this life three times in succession have wings given
them, and go away at the end of three thousand years. But the others
receive judgment when they have completed their first life, and after
the judgment they go, some of them to the houses of correction which
are under the earth, and are punished; others to some place in heaven
whither they are lightly borne by justice, and there they live in
a manner worthy of the life which they led here when in the form of
men. And at the end of the first thousand years the good souls and
also the evil souls both come to draw lots and choose their second
life, and they may take any which they please. The soul of a man may
pass into the life of a beast, or from the beast return again into
the man. But the soul which has never seen the truth will not pass
into the human form. For a man must have intelligence of universals,
and be able to proceed from the many particulars of sense to one
conception
of reason;-this is the recollection of those things which our soul
once saw while following God-when regardless of that which we now
call being she raised her head up towards the true being. And therefore
the mind of the philosopher alone has wings; and this is just, for
he is always, according to the measure of his abilities, clinging
in recollection to those things in which God abides, and in beholding
which He is what He is. And he who employs aright these memories is
ever being initiated into perfect mysteries and alone becomes truly
perfect. But, as he forgets earthly interests and is rapt in the divine,
the vulgar deem him mad, and rebuke him; they do not see that he is
inspired.

Thus far I have been speaking of the fourth and last kind of madness,
which is imputed to him who, when he sees the beauty of earth, is
transported with the recollection of the true beauty; he would like
to fly away, but he cannot; he is like a bird fluttering and looking
upward and careless of the world below; and he is therefore thought
to be mad. And I have shown this of all inspirations to be the noblest
and highest and the offspring of the highest to him who has or shares
in it, and that he who loves the beautiful is called a lover because
he partakes of it. For, as has been already said, every soul of man
has in the way of nature beheld true being; this was the condition
of her passing into the form of man. But all souls do not easily recall
the things of the other world; they may have seen them for a short
time only, or they may have been unfortunate in their earthly lot,
and, having had their hearts turned to unrighteousness through some
corrupting influence, they may have lost the memory of the holy things
which once they saw. Few only retain an adequate remembrance of them;
and they, when they behold here any image of that other world, are
rapt in amazement; but they are ignorant of what this rapture means,
because they do not clearly perceive. For there is no light of justice
or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls
in the earthly copies of them: they are seen through a glass dimly;
and there are few who, going to the images, behold in them the
realities,
and these only with difficulty. There was a time when with the rest
of the happy band they saw beauty shining in brightness-we philosophers
following in the train of Zeus, others in company with other gods;
and then we beheld the beatific vision and were initiated into a mystery
which may be truly called most blessed, celebrated by us in our state
of innocence, before we had any experience of evils to come, when
we were admitted to the sight of apparitions innocent and simple and
calm and happy, which we beheld shining impure light, pure ourselves
and not yet enshrined in that living tomb which we carry about, now
that we are imprisoned in the body, like an oyster in his shell. Let
me linger over the memory of scenes which have passed away.

Passages leading up to your quote.

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Full Biblical passage.

And what of 2 Corinthians 4:18 that I cited above which says “we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal” ? You don’t see the consistency of that statement with Platonism?

aniceguy · October 24, 2021, 10:44pm

you did you moron, you clearly said the Mongol invasion saved the Franks and the rest of the Central Europe from the Caliphate.

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 10:45pm

You are stupider than a can of worms.

aniceguy · October 24, 2021, 10:46pm

i could dig back and quote you but i dont really give a shit xd

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 10:48pm

Do it fuckface, quote me.

Here, you can use my shovel.

aniceguy · October 24, 2021, 10:49pm

In the context of the whole passage, no. How do you interpret the whole passage?

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 10:50pm

Imagine if, instead of a Pole, you were a Russian-Jewish Dutchman.

This whole nazi shit would be most unseemly.

aniceguy · October 24, 2021, 11:05pm

what the fuck are you even talking about bro leave me alone you kook

Pedro_I_Rengel · October 24, 2021, 11:06pm

Alright Jakob, I’ll leave you alone.

You fucking spaz.

aniceguy · October 24, 2021, 11:21pm

Btw New Testament is such a great work of literary prose…read Koran or Sunnah… they are brutish even in their prose. The Bible is a fantastic read.

promethean75 · October 25, 2021, 12:20am

The Bible is definitely some Harry Potter level writing, that’s 4 sure.

Urwrongx1000 · October 25, 2021, 11:34am

It’s obvious to me now, that most Modern-Postmodern “Christians” are only that, Christian in name only. I realize now that this is why ‘Christianity’ never took to me when I was a child, teenager, young adult, etc. I always felt their Deception and Lies, Falsity. Fake Christians. False Christians. Anti-Christians. How many Christians today are truly Christian? 1000? 100? What’s the number, the percentage of Western Civilization? How many are Liars? How many, here, on this forum, are Liars?

Probably most.

What is the Truth about Christ. That’s the important question. I feel if anybody today has an actual connection to The Christ, then He would appear through Action, not Words. Show me your Goodness. Show me your Good deeds, if you have any. Show me your selflessness. And then show me your selfishness. Prove to me that you know the difference. I know that most, 95% of the population, cannot. Most people are selfish, and stupid, which is a deadly combination. Those who are selfish, and smart, at least we know the difference, that we are not necessarily Good. Goodness comes only through Self-sacrifice. Few people know this. Even fewer still, do it.

And only Christ knew it, and did it, 100%. He knew His sacrifice.

And I know that Christ knew the deepest truths, that if you want to do Good in this world, then all its Evil shall come for you.

To do an ounce of Good, the world will never forgive you. It will Crucify you, for making Good possible. For showing the rest of the world, that it’s possible.

This is why He was, and is, King of Kings.

Urwrongx1000 · October 25, 2021, 11:37am

“No Good deed goes unpunished.”

Hmmm, interesting idea, I wonder which Man on Earth invented this phrase… I wonder…

Urwrongx1000 · October 25, 2021, 11:40am

Thought-experiment:

If you believe that you have done Good in your life …that you helped walk an old woman across the street …or gave a beggar a few coins …but you were not punished for it.

…Then did you really do Good?

Maybe a pure heart is required. Maybe it’s all-or-nothing?

Urwrongx1000 · October 25, 2021, 11:52am

I now know why so many Anti-Christians are blind to His Word.

His Words are not words, they’re actions. Most of humanity does not have knowledge of Good and Evil.

If you don’t know what Good is, then anytime you do it will be accidental, not purposeful.

aniceguy · October 25, 2021, 12:01pm

let me guess, Jesus Christ did but we missed it and now you are bringing his ancient words back to humanity.

aniceguy · October 25, 2021, 12:03pm

your misfortune is that you have painted what you are all over your nickname, my advantage…I claim normality, not being a demi-God, a God, a mythical figure, Hitler, an adventurer, a prophet, somebody who will resurface forgotten and misunderstood Ancient Greeks or others…so my normality is normal…for a pretentious clown, his normality is a proof of his pretences and weakness. you claim much, show not much.

felix_dakat · October 25, 2021, 1:57pm

Some quotes about God from the works of Plato:

“God desires that all things should be good and nothing bad as far as this could be accomplished.” Timaeus, 30

“God who enjoys the fullness of divine spirituality is clearly above both pleasure and pain, though possessed of universal wisdom.” Epinomis, 985.

“God, as the old tradition declares, holding in his hand the beginning, middle, and end of all that is, moves according to his nature in a straight line towards the accomplishment of his end.” Laws, IV, 715

“God is perfectly simple and true both in word and deed.” Republic, II, 382

“God, if he be good, is not the author of all things, as the many assert, but he is the cause of a few things only, and not of most things that occur to men. For few are the goods of human life, and many are the evils, and the good alone is to be attributed to God; of the evils the causes are to be sought elsewhere, and not in him.” Republic, Ii, 379

“Even God is said not to be able to fight against necessity.” Laws, V, 741

“God, and not man, is the measure of all things.”–Laws, IV, 716

“God takes away the minds of poets, and uses them as his ministers, as he also uses diviners in holy Prophets, in order that we who hear them may know that they speak not of themselves who utter these priceless words in a state of unconsciousness, but that God is the speaker, and that through them he is conversing with us.” Ion, 534

“I would not have you ignorant that, in the present evil state of governments, whatever is saved and comes to good is saved by the power of God.” Republic, VI, 492

“If such is the will of God, I am willing.” Crito, 44

“A man should be serious about serious, and not about unserious matters. And God is the proper and worthy object of a man’s most serious endeavor.” Laws,VII, 803

“Men have the faculty to obtain a certain knowledge of God.” Letter VI, 323

“They say we ought not to inquire into the supreme God, and that theology is impious, but the very contrary of this is the truth” Laws, VII, 821

MagsJ · October 25, 2021, 2:12pm

I thought Jakob was Anglo/Jewish? not Russo/Jewish… not that it makes a difference or anything.