Edification and male/female exchanges at ILP.

First, of course, since this thread exists as a result of an exchange between Maia and myself here…

ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.p … 1&start=50

…my focus will be on heterosexual relationships.

But it could just as easily be applicable to LGBTQ exchanges here as well.

How to broach this…

While basically just speculation and conjecture on my part, I suggested to Maia that, by and large, Urwrong and Satyr/lorikeet were telling her what she wanted to hear because as Maia succinctly put it…

Now, this part…

“I think you are trying to imply that those two individuals are somehow competing with each other to win my affection and/or romantic interest…”

I think is true.

That’s why even though in some important respects, they do not share her own spiritual/religious narrative/agenda, they generally avoid going there in order to “woo” her.

Though, again, admittedly, I am merely proposing my own wholly subjective intertwining of an educated guess and a wild-ass guess here. Just as I am not in possession of the machine that would allow me to be inside Maia, it’s the same with them. It’s mostly just supposition, surmising and guesswork. Extrapolation by and large.

As for this part…

“…to embarrass them into not talking to me.”

…nope, not to the best of my own knowledge about myself. If I want to discourage them from exchanges with Maia, it would probably be in relationship to the very real existence of “stalking” in this, at times, fucked-up machismo world.

But: I am not accusing either of them of this. I’m merely reacting subjectively to their exchanges with her.

Besides, as she has pointed out a number of times, she is more than capable of dealing with this sort of thing herself. Again, all I can do is to go back to what she related to me in regard to Urwrong/Adam. And to Satyr/lorikeet’s own dogmatic – reactionary? – assumptions regarding male/female relationships.

Anyway, what this thread is mostly all about is the reality of male/female exchanges in philosophy venues. And how the part where an exchange of ideas can also become entangled in an exchange of other things as well.

Here there are my own experiences over the years. How about yours?

Edify us.

I’ll have to come back to this later, as I’m just about to head out to work.

If I were a person who acted on sexual impulse, I’d be falling all over you too.

Sex comes and goes.

Friendship is forever.

If the purpose of philosophic thinking is to arrive at truths, then a male and a female engaging in philosophic exchange must both have the same purpose. But men and women rarely have the same ends in mind. They must both be trying to reach truth. In philosophical exchange between a male and a female, each will want to arrive at truth and will try to find out where the other stands on certain questions. Diotima’s method, therefore, is not a mere intellectual game, nor does she teach through mere questions and answers; rather, it is a method of philosophic inquiry that requires a certain kind of mental discipline. The questions put to Protagoras in Plato’s dialogue about the Sophists also show Diotima’s inquisitive nature. For male-female philosophical dialogue to work, the woman must have no personal stake in the outcome of the philosophical exchange, no need to prove a point or to win a contest. Instead, her purpose is to ask what the male will say, then wait patiently to see where he will go.

We learn of Socrates’ method, too, in a later dialogue between Socrates and Diotima, in Plato’s Symposium. In this dialogue, in the course of an argument about the nature of love, Diotima says, “We know, then, that the soul and reason have their proper offices among us; but of what sort and of what nature they are we know not, and yet it is for this very reason that each of us is a lover of wisdom and knowledge and desireth to reach the truth; for if the nature of the soul is such that she is the principle of her own nature and can think and judge for herself and if, besides this, reason is her guide, to whom else can she turn but the wise? For a soul that is without knowledge of what is, of what there is and of what the truth is, cannot have any good or evil within her, nor will she know what kind of a life is good and what kind evil; wherefore, if such a soul be born, she must of necessity be born in ignorance.” This passage reveals how Diotima and Socrates were coming to grips with the nature of the soul, and it is clear from the context of the Symposium that Socrates was not simply making a general point about his own pursuit of wisdom, but was trying to prove something about the very nature of the soul, the very nature of human nature.

Male eros in Socrates’ day was viewed as impure, as having the character of a blind animal. And yet, male eros was a powerful force, a winged demon, and was responsible for much of human achievement. Male eros had been the dominant force in the development of Western culture, as Plato wrote in The Symposium. Diotima says: What is more useful to mankind than this capacity, this passion of love, and what is there that produces the greatest and most useful fruits? It is this that is the cause of cities and of constitutions and laws and arts and all the other things we see to be most useful to men.

Plato, here, is trying to show us that eros is not just a kind of sexual appetite but something even more powerful than this, the force behind human civilization.

Is this crap?

Rhetorical.

I think that exchanging ideas always becomes entangled with exchanging other things too. We are, after all, human. In any exchange between people, such as a conversation, we are always thinking of the unspoken things too. Well, I am anyway.

I’m not particularly interested in discussing relationships, though, or speculating on the motives of others in that regard.

I’ll take that as a compliment.

As artificial intelligence goes, this seems strictly “by the book”.

Though, sure, UrSatyr, please do carefully consider it. And then get back to him with your own actual flesh and blood “general description intellectual contraptions”.

Sure, if that works for you. But to the extent you avoid this, others who do not avoid it, may or may not take advantage of it in their exchanges with you. Ultimately, it comes down to motive. And the extent to which others might attempt to fool you regarding their own. You, of course, will be the judge as to what Urwrong’s and Satyr’s motives are here. As it should be. All I can do is to note my own suspicions.

Besides, you’ve got nearly three years left on your commitment to the Goddess before it becomes applicable to you “for all practical purposes”.

Just out of curiosity…

Given either genes or memes, many/most men are preoccupied with “looks” in their pursuit of relationships. That you are very attractive is going to be something that matters to them. And yet in being blind from birth, “looks” is not something that would seem to be a component of your own attraction to possible romantic partners. How has this played a part in your life so far?

Do you know why they call it “falling in love”

Because you’re “falling” from grace.

Don’t take it as a compliment. I’ll fuck almost anything that moves or crawls. Although I do like you a lot. And you are very pretty.

That’s not the point.

My core value system is not to cause jealousy for either you or me from others.

Most people don’t care about this.

They know it. But they don’t care.

That’s why I have so many friends in life.

I care.

If I slept with you I’d lose billions of friends.

Friends get things done.

That’s the decision of the wise.

cringe

+++Sure, if that works for you. But to the extent you avoid this, others who do not avoid it, may or may not take advantage of it in their exchanges with you. Ultimately, it comes down to motive. And the extent to which others might attempt to fool you regarding their own. You, of course, will be the judge as to what Urwrong’s and Satyr’s motives are here. As it should be. All I can do is to note my own suspicions.+++

I’m not easily fooled. I simply prefer to keep it unspoken.

+++Besides, you’ve got nearly three years left on your commitment to the Goddess before it becomes applicable to you “for all practical purposes”.+++

Correct. For those keeping tabs, I still have three years left of my swearing off romantic liaisons. So I’m basically not available, anyway.

+++Just out of curiosity…

Given either genes or memes, many/most men are preoccupied with “looks” in their pursuit of relationships. That you are very attractive is going to be something that matters to them. And yet in being blind from birth, “looks” is not something that would seem to be a component of your own attraction to possible romantic partners. How has this played a part in your life so far?+++

I think I’ve mentioned before that the most attractive thing about a person, in a physical sense, is their smell, which is the first thing I pick up on, when I meet someone. Then their voice, and should it get that far, body shape and so on. But it’s the smell that really does it for me (or not). I’m not talking about sprays or cologne, but their actual natural pheromones, which can’t be masked, anyway.

+++Do you know why they call it “falling in love”

Because you’re “falling” from grace.

Don’t take it as a compliment. I’ll fuck almost anything that moves or crawls. Although I do like you a lot. And you are very pretty.

That’s not the point.

My core value system is not to cause jealousy for either you or me from others.

Most people don’t care about this.

They know it. But they don’t care.

That’s why I have so many friends in life.

I care.

If I slept with you I’d lose billions of friends.

Friends get things done.

That’s the decision of the wise.+++

Thank you for the compliment.

Utter bullshit.

No one here of late has made a greater effort to bring ILP back around to the days when philosophy actually prevailed than I have:

Here for example:

ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 1&t=175006
ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 1&t=175121
ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 5&t=186929
ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 1&t=195614
ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 1&t=195600
ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 1&t=176529
ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 5&t=196522
ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 5&t=195495

As for “drama”, it was Maia who brought up to me her concerns about Adam sexually stalking her. To the point that she contacted management here. To the point that she noted how relieved she was that she had not given him information that would allow him to actually show up at her doorstep.

And now here she is, among other things, chit-chatting with him about snow.

That’s strange to me. I’m curious as to why. Peruse stories about stalkers and not many women will bring them back into their lives. How can that not be potentially dangerous?

And then this thread. Which revolves around attempts to explore male/female exchanges in philosophy forums. Just how complicated and convoluted that can become when it does go beyond an exchange of ideas.

In particular, the part where someone becomes attracted to another and that becomes the primary motive. Then they can deliberately attempt to steer the exchange into a sexual or a romantic relationship instead. The posts themselves become just a means to that end.

Again, I’m not accusing either Urwrong or Satyr or anyone else here of doing that. I’m only reacting subjectively to the exchanges I encounter based on how “I” construe them. I may well be completely wrong about it all.

+++As for “drama”, it was Maia who brought up to me her concerns about Adam sexually stalking her. To the point that she contacted management here. To the point that she noted how relieved she was that she had not given him information that would allow him to actually show up at her doorstep.

And now here she is, among other things, chit-chatting with him about snow.

That’s strange to me. I’m curious as to why. Peruse stories about stalkers and not many women will bring them back into their lives. How can that not be potentially dangerous?+++

Chit-chatting online on a public forum does not constitute bringing someone back into, or indeed into, one’s life.

All of that happened about eight years ago. I was young then and it all seems like a lifetime ago. People change. I know I do.

I haven’t, and will not, give out my address to anyone. Quite a few people here know my name, which is no big secret, but even if they know the city where I live, which a few do, it’s a pretty big city.

Look, I’ve never doubted your intelligence, your self-confidence or your capacity to live an independent life. I’m just pointing out that there are very clever men out there able to manipulate exchanges here virtually and relationships out in the real world given their own ulterior motives.

Thus I believe that in regard to stalkers, it’s something that has to be spoken of. Back in the day as a political activist, I knew women who were part of the House of Ruth community. And though mostly revolving around domestic violence, there were any number of women I met who were abused by boyfriends and the victims of stalkers. These men could be extremely manipulative. So, in my view, it is potentially dangerous to communicate in any way with those who have stalked you in the past.

But, yeah, again, no doubt about it: you are far more informed about your own situation than I am.

Okay, but this just brings me back to our discussion on another thread. You admit that given new experiences and relationships, your thoughts and feeling about Paganism, the Goddess and sexual abstinence might change. You just never know. You might meet a man who smells in the right way. A man who tells you things and does things with you that makes you want to be very much available. Thus, it’s always important to know as much about him as possible. If there are ulterior motives, you’ve got to figure that out.

Here of course I suspect your own sense of smell [and hearing and touch and taste] is heightened in a way that most sighted people cannot equal. And yet given the world as I understand it many men are fixated on “looks”. It’s that they see you as very attractive that makes you desirable to them. Your avatar is especially applicable here in my opinion. But, from your frame of mind, there is no experiential understanding of this. And men who do become fixated on the face and on the body, can often be less inclined to focus in instead on a woman’s intelligence and emotional depth and social skills and sense of humor and personality and accomplishments.

Pretty women [and handsome men] are always going to be confronted with this in a world that, if you could see it [on TV, in the movies, in social interactions] you’d see this fixation on “looks”.

And that doesn’t really change just because someone is interested in philosophy.

All I can say is that any number of women that I once knew who had been stalked by men, would disagree. But, yeah, they are not you. Still, when someone “chit-chats” with a woman they once stalked sexually in exchanges where the woman is always basically agreed with and can do no wrong, that’s suspicious to me. But, again, this is only my own subjective reaction. Nothing more.

That’s true. And, yes, that might be the case here, I agree.

On the other hand, with me in our email exchanges, you provided me with information about a park that you go to every morning that, had I been a stalker, could have led me to you.

I’m just telling you to be careful. The rest is all about you and the precautions you take in this virtual world. A world where ulterior motives abound.

+++Look, I’ve never doubted your intelligence, your self-confidence or your capacity to live an independent life. I’m just pointing out that there are very clever men out there able to manipulate exchanges here virtually and relationships out in the real world given their own ulterior motives.

Thus I believe that in regard to stalkers, it’s something that has to be spoken of. Back in the day as a political activist, I knew women who were part of the House of Ruth community. And though mostly revolving around domestic violence, there were any number of women I met who were abused by boyfriends and the victims of stalkers. These men could be extremely manipulative. So, in my view, it is potentially dangerous to communicate in any way with those who have stalked you in the past.

But, yeah, again, no doubt about it: you are far more informed about your own situation than I am.+++

If an ulterior motive is completely obvious, can it really be said to be an ulterior motive?

+++Okay, but this just brings me back to our discussion on another thread. You admit that given new experiences and relationships, your thoughts and feeling about Paganism, the Goddess and sexual abstinence might change. You just never know. You might meet a man who smells in the right way. A man who tells you things and does things with you that makes you want to be very much available. Thus, it’s always important to know as much about him as possible. If there are ulterior motives, you’ve got to figure that out.+++

Yes, I might meet a guy and fall head over heels in love at first sniff. After all, it’s happened before. In which case, I would re-evaluate my current situation.

+++Here of course I suspect your own sense of smell [and hearing and touch and taste] is heightened in a way that most sighted people cannot equal. And yet given the world as I understand it many men are fixated on “looks”. It’s that they see you as very attractive that makes you desirable to them. Your avatar is especially applicable here in my opinion. But, from your frame of mind, there is no experiential understanding of this. And men who do become fixated on the face and on the body, can often be less inclined to focus in instead on a woman’s intelligence and emotional depth and social skills and sense of humor and personality and accomplishments.

Pretty women [and handsome men] are always going to be confronted with this in a world that, if you could see it [on TV, in the movies, in social interactions] you’d see this fixation on “looks”.

And that doesn’t really change just because someone is interested in philosophy.+++

I think smell and pheromones are an essential part of the attraction process for everyone. It’s just that for most people, it’s subconscious.

+++All I can say is that any number of women that I once knew who had been stalked by men, would disagree. But, yeah, they are not you. Still, when someone “chit-chats” with a woman they once stalked sexually in exchanges where the woman is always basically agreed with and can do no wrong, that’s suspicious to me. But, again, this is only my own subjective reaction. Nothing more.

That’s true. And, yes, that might be the case here, I agree.+++

As always, if someone treats me with respect, they will get a respectful reply from me.

+++On the other hand, with me in our email exchanges, you provided me with information about a park that you go to every morning that, had I been a stalker, could have led me to you.

I’m just telling you to be careful. The rest is all about you and the precautions you take in this virtual world. A world where ulterior motives abound.+++

I think the fact that you live in the USA made me feel it was fairly safe to mention it in private.

Anyway, might be off for a while again tomorrow.

Some men are just better than others at keeping their true motive hidden. Especially in regard to sex. Especially in this day and age where sex is everywhere. I don’t know all the details regarding how an exchange with Adam ended up with you contacting the mods here to report him, but that was clearly his motive back then. Obviously, right? So, what is his true motive now? Not to suggest you should be careful here would seem foolish to me.

Now, that’s what appeals to me. The recognition that who you think you are “here and now” can, given new experiences and relationships, become both profoundly problematic and profoundly precarious. In regard to things like love and sex, “I”, in my view, is an “existential contraption” when interacting with others in a world of “contingency, chance and change”.

We simply understand the meaning of that differently. Though neither one of us more rationally than the other.

Yes, in the world as you have come to experience it…as someone who was blind from birth. In the world as most sighted men experience it however your avatar is what they see. And in some respects it is a truly provocative photograph. Only it is not really possible for me to explain to you why I believe it would bring out the stalkers among us. Even the philosophers among us. Why? Because it’s a “visual” thing. You are very, very attractive. The face. The body. But, in not being able to see that as I believe many men do, the communication will break down. There is simply no way for me to explain that in greater detail. Only to suggest again that, among sighted men, you should be especially cautious in regard to romantic relationships.

And, as always, how do you know for sure why they treat you with respect once the reality of sex becomes a part of the exchange. Maybe not from your end, but from theirs. And respect that revolves around telling you what they think you want to hear because their motive has less to do with the discussion itself and more to do with their ulterior motive?

Yes, this can get really, really tricky, really, really fast. No doubt about that.

Also, the fact that I live in my “cocoon world”, am old enough to be your father and was interested only in sustaining a “virtual friendship” with you. You are more than just “fairly safe” with me.

Also, however, In the virtual world, what people tell you they are may bear little resemblance to what they really are. You have no way of knowing if I really do live in America. Yes, in fact, I do reside in Baltimore, Maryland. But “online”, you have to be especially cautious.

+++Some men are just better than others at keeping their true motive hidden. Especially in regard to sex. Especially in this day and age where sex is everywhere. I don’t know all the details regarding how an exchange with Adam ended up with you contacting the mods here to report him, but that was clearly his motive back then. Obviously, right? So, what is his true motive now? Not to suggest you should be careful here would seem foolish to me.+++

Men are not in the slightest bit adept at keeping that particular motive hidden, but it very much depends on how they go about it. They can be sensitive and respectful, or crass and obsessive.

+++Now, that’s what appeals to me. The recognition that who you think you are “here and now” can, given new experiences and relationships, become both profoundly problematic and profoundly precarious. In regard to things like love and sex, “I”, in my view, is an “existential contraption” when interacting with others in a world of “contingency, chance and change”.

We simply understand the meaning of that differently. Though neither one of us more rationally than the other.+++

Yes, I’ve always said that my opinions about anything are always subject to change. I don’t regard this as problematic or precarious, though. Rather, it’s one of the things that makes life so interesting.

+++Yes, in the world as you have come to experience it…as someone who was blind from birth. In the world as most sighted men experience it however your avatar is what they see. And in some respects it is a truly provocative photograph. Only it is not really possible for me to explain to you why I believe it would bring out the stalkers among us. Even the philosophers among us. Why? Because it’s a “visual” thing. You are very, very attractive. The face. The body. But, in not being able to see that as I believe many men do, the communication will break down. There is simply no way for me to explain that in greater detail. Only to suggest again that, among sighted men, you should be especially cautious in regard to romantic relationships.+++

Thank you for the compliment. I’d like you to try and explain why you think it’s provocative, though. My brother said it was the cutest one of the bunch, but that’s not the same as provocative. I was, however, under the impression that my face is hidden in it, deliberately. It’s also, I should add, something like ten years old.

Your words appear to imply that you think I’m some sort of guy magnet, but I assure you that this is not the case. Not everyone is into blind girls, you see. And it’s patently obvious when this is the case, no matter how much they try and hide it.

+++And, as always, how do you know for sure why they treat you with respect once the reality of sex becomes a part of the exchange. Maybe not from your end, but from theirs. And respect that revolves around telling you what they think you want to hear because their motive has less to do with the discussion itself and more to do with their ulterior motive?

Yes, this can get really, really tricky, really, really fast. No doubt about that.+++

Wanting sex does not necessarily imply disrespect. As long at it remains unspoken, that is.

+++Also, the fact that I live in my “cocoon world”, am old enough to be your father and was interested only in sustaining a “virtual friendship” with you. You are more than just “fairly safe” with me.

Also, however, In the virtual world, what people tell you they are may bear little resemblance to what they really are. You have no way of knowing if I really do live in America. Yes, in fact, I do reside in Baltimore, Maryland. But “online”, you have to be especially cautious.+++

Your use of language makes it very clear that you’re American. I have no reason to doubt any of the rest.