Atoms as little galaxies, galaxies as large atoms

Well, regardless of the Benzine issue;

A) it is provable that one cannot carry the analogy downscale (having nothing to do with Plank).
B) what causes a sub atomic particle to be a particle and behave as it does is not present in the form of a galaxy or even a planet.
C) QM is a distractive joke played on Science.

But as far as our observable universe being merely a “puff of smoke” on a larger scale, I can’t see how such could not be true. It is highly unlikely that galaxies would establish any kind of molecular type structure on any scale anywhere close to that of atoms, but on the other hand, they cannot avoid being a structure of some kind.

I wondered myself as to whether there is a vastly larger life form of which we would be too insignificant to even discover. But at this point, I really have no principles to guide me concerning that issue except to say that greater has no choice but to exist. As to what it might look like on that scale, I have no idea.

Hi James
I wonder how you can limit smaller and then say this?

Can something very small have intelligence?
john

Hi there john,
In Rational Metaphysics, I begin with the most fundamental concepts involved in the issue of existence. From there, I build. But it isn’t very long before the notion of particles forming is a necessary aspect of those fundamental principles. Now what that ends up meaning is that the most fundamental principles of any existence must cause said particles to form (for any universe that is going to exist). At that point, no Science or physics is involved. It is pure definitional logic.

But as it turns out, those particles absolutely must behave (due to the logic) in a manner that exactly describes what contemporary physics has observed as the behavior of real physical particles. The number of elements of similarity are very many and there are none left out such as to imply that perhaps the logical derivation doesn’t exactly match the physics observation. So a foundation of understanding of the very logically required nature of sub-atomic particles is revealed, the “why” behind every aspect; why positive and negative attract, why electrons don’t crash into protons, why light travels at that particular speed, why all particles of a specific type are the same size, and so on.

Now that alone doesn’t tell you that it is necessary that the “metaparticles” derived from definitional logic must be the most fundamental and also the same as the physics observed particles. But there is another issue that does.

If you were to attempt to cause physics particles to simulate on a higher scale, their same behavior (to form megaparticles), you could not arrange it. The actual physics particles do not form particles of a higher scale except in crude ways that are easily distinguishable from physics particles. The analogy doesn’t work sufficiently to cause a higher level perspective of the exact same thing. Now what that means is that the metaparticles could not do that either. Thus it means that the metaparticles could not be representing a form of particle that was merely on a lower scale as those of the physics particles and just happen to be exactly similar. It means that the metaparticles that were born of the most fundamental concerns of reality are in fact the same particles witnessed in contemporary physics and there can be nothing on a lower perspective scale. In a since, if you try to reduce the particle analogy down a little, you run into principles that forbid any particle from forming.

But now as far as going very far up to the galactic scale, it is easy to see that galaxies do not behave as small particles behave. They do not have quantized sizes or charges, for example. And because of these differences, they cannot form atoms and molecules that would represent merely a higher perspective.

So in the long run, you have that you cannot go lower in perspective because you run into fundamental principles forbidding any kind of particles from forming at all and if you go higher in perspective, you run into resultant behavior that does not replicate those of the smaller behaviors. So you are stuck on a unique level of perspective that cannot be replicated either higher or lower.

Sorry if I rushed through that too quickly. I have a hard time trying to explain deeply complex things in a quick post in such a way that they are easily seen as true.

Not in the since that you are probably thinking, no. Intelligence requires specific memory and algorithm functions that have no room to be occurring else things like particles could not form. Particles form due to a relatively simple set of principles. To have intelligence on that level would require that the entire set of atoms and molecules and all of the complexity of a brain be established even before a particle got formed from their alliance.

It is fun to think of such things, but I’m afraid the logic forbids the real possibility of them.

James-
It would seem that, to
you, smaller is simpler until one arrives
at these crude building blocks which
are not replicated in what we see with
our telescopes, so you reject the fractal idea.

Here, let me explain photon formation to you
using fractal:

The ‘fractal emr’ emitted by electrons is
replaced by what their protons absorb,
but when there is more being absorbed by
the protons than emitted by the electron, it is
accreted on each side of the proton as a
pair of photons until they are large enough
to repel each other away.

So when atoms are packed tight and or heated,
they are constantly accreting the excess energy
and kicking it loose when it gets big enough
as pairs of newly-minted photons, which are made from
large numbers of accreted ‘fractal neutrinos’.

So, in this single-disc spinning scenario,
the positive charge and negative charges repel
each other magnetically, since they are always
spinning the same way. So as the proton accretes, its
magnetic repulsion forces the electron arms to
extend. When they get to the next optimum orbit,
where they start to ride their own wave again,
they suddenly push back less hard on the nucleus, and
the accreted photons are shot away in opposite directions.

Voila. Applause, please. :slight_smile:

john
galaxy model

I’m doing a re-make of
my spinning/precessing discs
animation of CH4.
Here is a thumbnail of it:
users.accesscomm.ca/john/win4.GIF

In order to work, adjoining discs
had to either rotate oppositely, or
precess oppositely.
When I made the above, I chose
to have the inside disc precess oppositely- as
you can see.

But then when I made Benzene, I realized
that it’s much better to have all the
discs precess together and have
adjoining discs simply FACE the other way.
Way simpler!!
users.accesscomm.ca/john/BenzeneA.GIF

So now I’m re-doing CH4, and it’s turning
out very cool, indeed. It will be a little wait,
because I’m doing every 5.625 degrees, but
I’m already at 78.75, so it depends how
single-minded I get on it. It’s cool, and you
can really see how diamond structure would
work. Give me a couple of weeks.

john
galaxy model

I have finished all 64 frames of
the new animation. What is left is the
non-moving embellishments- like
the orbits.
I just finished tracing out two
corresponding pathways and found-!!
they appear identical to the previous
animation when
neighbours precessed oppositely
wtf?? Does it make no difference?
This is what the joined orbits looked like
last time:
users.accesscomm.ca/bluepath.GIF

john

Sorry. forgot my own name. :slight_smile:
That should be
users.accesscomm.ca/john/bluepath.GIF
The above is from when adjacent discs start
with same rotation/opposite precession.
I will post two GIFs presently that are from
the present animation when adjacent discs
start with opposite rotation/same precession.
It appears to be the same pathway.

john

OK
I combined this into one GIF showing
the shared orbit with and without
the redundant inner loops.
I will use four of these orbits to
house the eight electrons of CH4.
users.accesscomm.ca/john/bluepath2.GIF

john

My newest CH4 animation is up
and viewable at
users.accesscomm.ca/john/CH4A.GIF
It shows the four possible places each
pair of electrons can be, in this
“atoms are discs like galaxies” model.
The task is now to pare this down to
two for each colour. The trick is
to have them not run into each
other. Remember- always twice
as much precession as rotation.
Try it! It’s better than Sudoku.
:slight_smile:
john
(The yellow disk has a glitch that I
missed at 185 degrees. I will fix it
when I run the actual orbits.)

What is your profession Hooper?

Professional drop=out.
I dropped out of Medicine because I
think they are fubar and I dropped
out of Physics because they are
worse.

Now I promote my own cure
for heart disease and arthritis, which
is becoming a strict vegan with
particular focus on avoiding all
hydrogenated fats. Do a search on
Caldwell Esselstyn to see that I am right
about the cardio angle, and as far as
arthritis is concerned, my back and hips just
keep feeling better and better. I re-gained the ability
to hula hoop at age 54 when my pelvis changed
angle back to where it used to be. My bum came back up
and I had to hold my shoulders and head further
back to maintain balance. Since then my spine has been
opening up one painful vertebral pop at a time and my
lower arch has increased, my upper thoracic curve has flattened,
my ribs have opened out, my pot belly got sucked back in,
my clavicles have opened out- I am getting straighter and straighter.
Unfortunately, with my head further back, it’s hard not
to look down my nose at people- even being a drop-out.
:slight_smile:

I also promote my own cure for Physics,
which is pretty much all here in the previous
posts.

I guess I’m also an inventor of sorts,
since I used my atom electron
pattern to make a large ball- see:
youtu.be/VDpFfT_izI8
and I would love to find someone
to construct me a proper seat inside
it so people could ride in it safely.
I also have ideas about a recreational
real-life pinball type Bumper Ball
Park, if anyone is interested.
I’m at johnsefton two-eighty-eight at yahoo.ca

john
galaxy model for the atom

I have two pages of modding to get through, but lete get back to you on this after that :slight_smile:

‘modding’?
I have to re-do my CH4 model so the inside
disc spins the other way
( users.accesscomm.ca/john/CH4A.GIF ).
That’s 64 frames. Happily, I only have
to cut the center one out and stick
in a new one.
I just do 4 or 5 at a time interspersed
with speculating how it could
all be fractals based on the atom/galaxy
thing.
For instance, lifetimes in your
atoms’ fractal-yous are so short that you
could run all the various scenarios possible
at any one moment at the fractal level
and always come up
with the best next step IF that knowledge could
be heard somehow at your level.
Our ‘little voice’.
If a person could get in tune with that, they
would be pretty amazing.

john
galaxy model

Having to re-do this CH4 animation
is actually totally cool! It turns out that the way it works
is for all the discs to be both turning and
precessing the same way!
So, for Diamond, the structure is
totally orderly, with every element
oriented precisely like every other element
and all identically interconnected at all times.
All their electrons always in the same plane
and turning the same way.
So cool.
5 frames done already-59 left.

john

That should be ‘all their electrons always rotating
in parallel planes’

I’m wearing GREEN :smiley:

Well, after hacking at this stupid
CH4 for awhile, I find that it apparently
doesn’t work when precessions are
parallel.
So the only way for it to
work is if neighbours have opposite
precession, as I did it several years
ago:
users.accesscomm.ca/john/iwin4.GIF
Hmmm.
Does this mean I have to
do Benzene using opposite precession?

Nope, it appears to be impossible to
do Benzene any other way than
users.accesscomm.ca/john/BenzeneE.GIF

So that means two atoms’ precessions can be the
same or they can be opposite.

Of course, if this vision of
an atom is at all correct, there must also
be evidence that galaxies precess. Do we
have evidence of this?

john

When Democritus, Newton and Rutherford
concluded that everything is composed
of a basic building block- the atom-
they were right.

The Universe is a fractal, with the
atom as the recurring pattern, and it
occurs again at the galactic level.
Likewise, the smallest building block
of an atom is a form similar to itself
but 10^27 times smaller. So, that
‘particle zoo’ will continue to enlarge
until its a ‘particle galaxy’. :slight_smile:

Not only the material forms like atoms
and galaxies re-occur, but radiation spectra
associated with these forms also re-appear
at a vastly finer grid. These are the realms of
undetectable energy transfer.

Each of the electrons making up the
infinite amounts of matter surrounding us
on all sides is radiating exactly like
a 500-million-sun galactic arm- there
are that many tiny neutrino-like
parcels of energy going out in all directions.
Therefore, there is a huge amount of this
energy coming from all directions through
any point in space. Plus, the local matter
is also giving this stuff off, but in a
diverging form. So, gravity, inertia and
other field effects may easily be
found in this model.

One of the nice things about
this model is it doesn’t beget any big
scary monsters, like Black Holes. You
can’t have Black Holes because there is
only a certain amount of gravitational
energy available in any one direction.
It’s the same reason pyramid schemes don’t
work (hmm- note to self- start chain letter
through areas of high-physicist density).
Anyway, where was I? Oh, yeah- scary monsters.
Big Bangs, Big Crunches- we always imagine
ourselves center stage. I’m sorry, Sonny,
Beginnings don’t even make any sense in
terms of Universes. It has been
here forever. It will be here forever.
It extends in all directions forever, including
smaller and larger reflections of everything.

john
galaxy model

What about the very small size where the maximum mass that relativity allows is crammed in without the region collapsing into a black hole? I have read that it is also the minimum mass that quantum mechanics allows to be confined in so tiny a region. That size, about 10-33 cm, is called the Planck length, and it’s the smallest possible size. How can we talk or even think about anything smaller according to the current understanding of physics? General relativity and quantum mechanics do not permit scales below the Planck limit. To observe a particle on the Planck scale, one would have to bombard it with an amount of energy equivalent to the Planck mass (about 2.2x10-5 grams), which would cause the region to collapse into a black hole, which would then evaporate in a Planck time. This is why it makes no sense to think of a region the Planck size as if it were ordinary space. Seems to refute the idea that the universe is fractal all the way down. [An idea that I find attractive too, by the way.] Yes? No?