I have just read
bible.com/answers/awomemin.html
and I am deeply offended.
I believe women could never become Christian Ministers. Thank God the Pope is a defender of faith. The Bible’s position on this issue is very clear. If any Christian believes otherwise. I am happy to debate the issue.
No doubt! Off with those shoes, woman, and back to the kitchen with ye!
So how is a woman less qualified to be a Christian Minister?
EZ$
A Christian accepts the Bible as the Word of God. The Bible in 1 corinthians 14:34 made the position very clear.
“Let your women keep silent in the churchues, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.”
and the Scripture is even more definitive regarding the role of women and men.
POR,
You scare me, you really scare me. My views on Christian fundamentalist thinking are bordering on initializing a fist fight, so I will stop before I say too much. But I will say this: Jesus never meant for those who follow him to be so pure of thinking and judgemental towards others. Wow.
hilarious
My wife and I were married by one of the few female Vicars in England. I just wish she hadn’t insisted on bringing us newspapers and our slippers throughout the whole ceremony…
“Do you, Tabula Rasa, take… sugar in your tea…?”
Another cracking post Pinnacle. At least your quality is consistant.
PoR, a few more nuggets of biblical wisdom about women:
Virgin women are war booty
“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he [Moses] asked them… “Now … kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
– Numbers 31:1-18
Woman must marry rapist
If a man [meets] a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her … He must marry the girl … He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
– Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Christian women: be silent
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
– I Corinthians 14:34-35
Wife listed among property
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
– Exodus 20:17
There’s plenty more where that came from, but that will do for now… I’m off to rape a hot christian chick and demand she marry me or face the eternal wrath of god. 
HELL(O) F(R)IEND(S)
Pretty much all Abrahamic religions require women to be silent in the church, mosque, or temple. POR is accurate that women should not be ministers within the Christian religions that follow the word of the biblical god. However, what he conveniently failed to mention is that the Catholic Church is one of the biggest offenders and violators against the word of god. Again, on this issue, he is correct in his interpretations of the bible. The churches that have female ministers should not be called Christian religions. That has nothing to do with sexism based on the biblical word of god.
Tab, as usual, hilarious stuff.
If you believe that fictional story about god and all…
Far out, I love Dawn French (Vicar of Dibley) and you were married by her? Wow!
One of my favourite scenes was when Dawn French was telling the village idiot a joke about the new non-fat wafer they invented for the weight conscious sinner. It was called “I Can’t Believe Its Not Jesus”
Anyway this is supposed to be a serious forum 
… I forgot… PoR is serious 
Dear, dear km,
I am quite certain that this is not what POR had in mind with this discussion. Back on task, I say!
I want more biblical quotes on women. They were great!
that’s only if she didnt’ enjoy it and no one heard her crying for help.
If someone heard her crying for help she was murdered.
rape:
thebricktestament.com/the_la … 2_23a.html
(click on it for the hilarious pictures.)
Dt 22:23
‘If, while in a town, a man happens to meet a woman who is engaged to be married…’
Dt 22:23
‘…and he has sex with her…’
Dt 22:24
‘Take them both to the gate of the town and stone them to death: the girl, for not having cried for help in the town; the man, for having violated another man’s wife. You must banish this evil from among you.’
Islam still uses this to justify murdering women in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
Dt 22:25
‘But if, while out in the country, a man happens to meet a girl engaged to be married…’
Dt 22:25
‘…and seizes her and rapes her…’
Dt 22:25
‘…the rapist alone must die.’
Dt 22:26
‘You must do nothing to the girl. She has not committed a sin worthy of death, for she may have called out for help without anyone coming to her rescue.’
They conveniently ignore this verse in Islam.
Dt 22:28
‘If a man happens to meet a virgin woman who is not engaged to be married…’
Dt 22:28
‘…And he seizes her and rapes her…’
Dt 22:28
‘…but is caught in the act…’
Dt 22:29
‘…the rapist must pay the girl’s father fifty silver shekels.’
Dt 22:29
'She must marry the rapist, because he has violated her. And so long as he lives, he may not divorce her.’
I think what PoR proves is that we can no longer afford to live in a world where we take the bible literally. Morality has improved beyond the bible, so the bible is no longer a necessary ruler as far as morality is concerned.
As far as disregarding god altogether because of 2000 year old book on how they dealt with law, god and life, it’s ridiculous. Because we look at the world differently, we interact with other differently and we have to interact with god differently.
Cute site scythekain
Back by popular demand:
No head gear; no prayer
And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head–it is just as though her head were shaved.
1 Corinthians 11:5:
A woman is ‘unclean’ for 7 days if she has a boy and 14 days if its a girl
The LORD said to Moses,"Say to the Israelites:
`A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. … If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period…
Leviticus 12:1-8:
Fashion Tips
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
1 Timothy 2:9 :
No female teachers
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
1 Timothy 2:11-12
Don’t sleep around while living at home – What about the guy?
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.
Deuteronomy 22:20-21:
We want sex with the men. No take my two virgin daughters instead
They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
Genesis 19:5-8:
Two wives? No problem
And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
Genesis 4:19:
Engaged servant gets whipped; master gets fined for sex
And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering.
And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 19:20-22 (King James Version)
Need cash? sell your daughter
If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.
Exodus 21:7
If christians are to follow the “sharia” biblical law, follow ALL of it. If some parts don’t make logical sense, then maybe other parts don’t either.
Excellent site Mr. Kain, I fear I shall never look on lego with the same innocent eye again…
Thankyou Mr. Thirst: Aim to please…
Km - Unfortunately no, not the Vicar of Dibley… The Vicar of Clifton. The difference…? About 5 stone*.
Anyone find any relevant Hindu laws…? We may as well complete the set…
eg: Manu V.148 " In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, when her lord is dead to her sons; a women must never be independant."
or: Manu Smrti V.164 " By violating her duty towards her husband, a wife is disgraced in this world, (after death) whe enters the womb of a jackal, and is tormented by diseases (as the punishment of) her sin."
Whoo - Women 'eh - if I wasn’t half so nice as I say I am I’d say they must’ve done something to deserve such a raw deal…
*(Or 6.5x5 kilos for the none-brits)
no brick bhagavad vita or quran unfortunately.
here’s some from the quran from one of my other fave sites:
skepticsannotatedbible.com/q … /long.html
Insults to Women in the Quran
2: The Cow
It’s OK to have sex with your wives on the night of the fast. 187
Menstruation is a sickness. Don’t have sex with menstruating women. 222
Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like. 223
Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are “a degree above them.” 228
A woman is worth one-half a man. 282
4: The Women
Marry of the women two, or three, or four. 3
Males are to inherit twice that of females. 11
Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. 15
You may not forcibly inherit women, unless they flagrantly lewd. 19
Instructions for exchanging wives 20
You can’t have married women, unless they are captives. 24
Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 34
Don’t pray if you are drunk, dirty, or have touched a woman lately. 43
They invoke in his (Allah’s) stead only females. 117
A man cannot treat his wives fairly. 129
“Unto the male is the equivalent share of two females.” 176
5: The Table Spread
When it’s time to pray and you have just used the toilet or touched a woman, be sure to wash up. If you can’t find any water, just rub some dirt on yourself. 6
11: Hud
Lot offers his daughters to a mob of angel rapers. 78
Hindu misogynistic laws are quite similar except in one major area. All spiritual beings reincarnate forming a material body around their atma (soul). The type of body that forms reflects the level of consciousness that person achieved in the previous life – male, female, animal, insect etc.
This means that a man, in this life, can return as a woman in the next and vice versa. So theoretically, you’d imagine that men would treat women a little better? But that’s not the case. Most Hindus treat women like slaves. I think thousands of years of indoctrinated caste structures and roles were more powerful than the fear of returning as a woman. 
Hate to rain in on your fun, but I feel that there are a few points I need to take up with Scythe.
…
You’re saying Islam uses the Bible to justify the actions of Muslims… ??
You made it a point to go out of your way and attack Islam on the basis of Biblical verses. Your premise is faulty for two reasons:
1- You took Biblical verses and stated that Islam uses them to justify killing raped women. First of all, Muslims do not follow any of the Biblical verses. It’s not convenient ignorance. We have our own book. Yes, we believe in Christianity and the Bible that was revealed to Jesus, but it has since been altered/edited, and we have our own book that (according to Islamic thought) was subsequently revealed to Mohammad, and from which we derive Islamic laws.
2-Islam does not use this to justify murdering women. Hence you will not find a similar verse in the Qur’an, which permits the murder of raped women. Corrupt/misguided Muslims may use this to justify killing women, but it has absolutely no basis in Islam. No Middle Eastern government (ESPECIALLY not Saudi Arabia or Egypt) is an actual Islamic government, and most of the stuff they do, even when they claim Islam, is totally unislamic. Rather, their practices are usually cultural, and there is a vast difference between culture and Islam. There are many traditions practiced by Middle Eastern governments that people take as reflections of Islamic law, that actually have nothing to do with Islamic law. For example, female circumcision: cultural, not Islamic. Honor killings: cultural, not Islamic. According to Islamic law, if a woman has been raped she is not at fault in any way, and should not be punished. Do not take the actions of Muslims as representative of Islam.
As for the quotes from the Qur’an… Unfortunately, either the translations are incorrect or they are taken out of context. The Qur’an brought liberties to women that seventh-century Arabia would had never dreamed of; for example, prohibiting female infanticide (very common at that time), abolishing women’s status as property (and changing marriage from a proprietary to a contractual relationship), establishing women’s legal capacity, granting women the right to receive dowry, allowing women to retain control over their property and use their maiden name after marriage, etc.
I don’t have time to go over all the verses, and I’m sure many of you don’t want to sit here and read about all of them, but I will explain as many as I can right now just to show how grossly out of context/misinterpreted they are.
How is that insulting? It is not permissible for any Muslim to have sex while he or she is fasting. Thus, the Qur’an is making it clear that while during one’s fast (which lasts from dawn to sunset) sex is not permitted, once he breaks his fast at sunset a person may go about his biznass. So in Ramadan, when Muslims fast for a whole month, they don’t have to abstain from sex for a whole month too. Just during the day. Insulting? More like merciful.
Actually the word that you have down as “sickness†is mistranslated. “Adhan†is the Arabic word, and it sort of means a hurt, or a harm. And what this is interpreted as, is that it is not healthy for a woman to have sex during this time. Thus, the verse is simply stating that it is impermissible according to Islamic law for a woman to have sex while she is on her period. Again, how is that insulting?
Dude, it’s just telling men that when they are married, sex is cool. Premarital sex is obviously forbidden, so the verse is simply stating that once you are married, you can do whatever you want.
Read any translation of the Qur’an and it will tell you that this verse is referring to a degree of responsibility, because right before that it is talking about rights, and how women have rights over men in terms of such responsibility. In Islam, a wife can do whatever she wants with her money. On the other hand, her husband is obligated to use his money to support his wife and family. He cannot just use it for himself, as the female can.
Context, context, context. This is referring to witnesses, which is what the whole verse is talking about. If you are to have witnesses in an Islamic court, in THAT situation two female witnesses’ testimonies are equivalent to that of one male, for the simple reason that women tend to get emotional more so than men. Women are more likely to feel sorry for someone or become emotional. And this is not misogynistic at all. Just look at battery cases here in the US. Ninety nine percent of the time, women change their story when they go up on the stand because they are scared/feel bad/etc.
Read the rest of the verse…“but if you feel that you may not be able to deal justly with them, then only one.†Polygamy (which is, as quoted above, also permitted in the Bible) actually sought to help society. First of all, prior to Islam men married as many wives as they wanted, and they treated them unjustly. The Qur’an sought to curb the unrestricted number of wives, and ensure the wives were treated justly. It did not completely outlaw polygamy in order to ensure the welfare of single women and widows in a society whose male population was diminished by warfare. In seventh-century Arabia, when a man could have as many wives as he wanted, four was a great limitation. Furthermore, while still allowing polygamy for the above reasons, the Qur’an maintains that it is extremely difficult to maintain justice amongst the wives. Thus, it states (and this verse was also quoted by scythe):
So unless you’re sure you can do them complete justice, do not marry more than one. This verse only shows you just how just Islam is. Today, barely anyone marries more than one wife, and the ones who do are taking a huge risk because they have that responsibility of treating them equally/loving them equally/etc. That’s near impossible.
Because, as I stated above, males have a financial responsibility (support wife & kids) that females do not have. Thus it is only fair to the males that they inherit more.
Ok, that’s not even in the verse. The verse reads: “O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will; and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse; and live with them honorably.†Basically, treat your wife with respect, and don’t keep her dowry (money the husband is required to give their wife at marriage) from her unless she is openly a ho. Sounds good to me.
Dude, it’s talking about divorce, and telling men that if they wish to divorce their wife to whom they gave a great dowry (large sum of gold), they may not take the dowry back. That sounds more kind to me than insulting.
I’ve got to jet right now but my point is, verses from the Qur’an are all too often taken out of context and attacked. However, in reality they provide women with great amounts of freedom, liberation, and rights; rights that women in the West did not have until much later. During the early history of the United States, a man virtually owned his wife and children as he did his material possessions. On the other hand, way back in the seventh century the Qur’an declared that that men and women are equal in the eyes of God. Men and women were created to be equal parts of a pair (51:49). The Qur’an describes the relationship between a man and a woman as one of “love and mercy” (30:21). Men and woman are to serve as one another’s garment (protection, security) (2:187), and are to be like “members of one another" (3:195). The site you have posted attacks verses of the Qur’an with no context or basis, and the “annotations†are very inaccurate. Someone who knows nothing about a religion cannot just point his finger at a verse with blind eyes and cite it. The Qur’an, and all the other religious texts, are much deeper than that.
actually noetician I didn’t write any of those, I was quoting them from the skepticsannotatedbible.com
but since you’ve seem to got such a beef with it:
saudi is a monarchy where the official religion is Islam. Are most of the practicioners extremists? YES. Much like the queen of spain’s inquisition of non-christians. That doesn’t mean she wasn’t reading the same book christians were reading and that she wasn’t christian. Just like they are reading the quran and practicing Islam albeit a form you disagree with.
First of all the Islamic belief of the flawed bible is a new one, that was introduced to the religion by jihadists in the 12th century. Is that what you want to prescribe to?
Aspacia in one of the Islam threads pointed that out.
what do they use then, because they certainly do it.
think about how this is written and tell me how it’s not derogatory to women. Think about who the passage is directed to. Not “you may have sex with your spouse” - “you may have sex with your wives”
It’s directed towards men, because women aren’t at the same degree as men to study the quran.
yes because “hurt or harm” is SO much better than “sickness”.
of course this is FROM the bible were Mohammed (or whoever) took creative license and ripped it off.
Both are way out of date policies of misogyny.
Dude, that’s called RAPE, if the women doesn’t want to have sex with you even if you are married.
223 - again sexual inequality, women are your till do as you will.
228 - women have to wait to remarry but men don’t?
How can that be taken any other way? Two men or two men to replace one man’s witness?
How can you think that’s ok?
yes the mormons thought so too, and they just like the early jews and the muslims ONLY allowed men to marry multiple wives and not the other way around.
Polygamy is enslaving to women. It’s not helpful to society in any way shape or form.
Ludicrous in modern times, hopefully even you realize that.
if you had bothered to click the link you’d see it’s NOT the verse but the general idea conveyed by the verse.
LOL, right. compeletly out of context because I don’t see it the same way you do.
I’m not attacking the bible or quran I’m poining out the moral and ethical flaws of BOTH books.
Why am I hearing non-Christians using the Christian Bible to justify their eroneous stance? They can’t have understood the bible, because if that is the case then they are Christians. This post is to discuss the role of women in the church. Women can speak because we allow women to pray together with us in the church. but they can’t lead the congregation.
because…?