Conservatives - always one step behind?

If we look at history and all the major movements fighting for social equality and rights of minorities it is almost always, if not always, the conservatives of that age opposing them. Oppression of women, blacks and minorities was always conducted by conservatives of that time f.e.

Conservatives in the 19th, early 20th century and before would have sworn that women shouldn’t get voting rights. Now it’s commonly accepted.
Conservatives in the early 19th century and before would have sworn that blacks aren’t good for anything else but manual labor and simple tasks and should therefore not have the same rights as whites. Now it’s commonly accepted that they do have same rights.

It seems that it’s always the liberal progressives, or at least liberals of the time who get it right, while the conservatives are corrected constantly.

A more recent example is discrimination of gay people, although gays are now more or less accepted in most Western countries, conservatives lose again…
Perhaps a better example for modern time then would be transsexuals - conservatives now would swear there’s something wrong with them, they’re inferior (mentally ill), history shows that conservatives for about 100 years from now will embrace transsexuality as something normal, as normal as women/black people rights.

Perhaps another example would be vegetarianism. I’m against this one since I love my meat, but that does not deny the fact that the number of vegetarians/vegans IS growing and it seems like another time the conservative position towards the issue (including me this time) will have gotten it wrong. I’m not really willing to argue this one with anything more than the inductive method this entire thread is based on though.

What would be the conservative reply to this? And how does it feel to have hundreds of years of experience indicating your current positions are most likely to be seen as bigoted and wrong by people of the same political orientation as you about a 100 years from now on?

I think you are correct in that they are only one step behind… But not more than this. I imagine a person is generally going to be proven wrong if they resist change.

Question arises… Do they think they are wrong or that society has simply gone down the shit hole?

I wouldn’t know as I am not one by today’s standards.

What constitutes progress or progressivism has changed over time. What is considered progress today (placing gays, ethnic minorities, women, Muslims on a pedestal above the interests of the majority) is not what was considered progress previously. Today’s understanding of progress starts with the radicals of the 1960s. Progressives today have in fact turned their back on the middle class and blame them, along with the capitalists, for all the ills of the world. Consider “whiteness studies”, for example. Yesteryear’s conception of progress various. It consisted of self-responsibility after Christian metaphysics became unbelievable - think Kant’s What is Enlightenment? There is also the old left that considered progress to be raising the working and living conditions of the working classes. These two conceptions of progress I agree with. However, I do not consider today’s view of progress to actually be progress. It’s centred around creating victims and then making the majority feel guilty for supposedly oppressing them.

Are there any victims that we should feel guilty about oppressing?

You’re missing the point. Couple of hundreds of years ago a conservative advocating slavery, racism and oppression of women wouldn’t consider blacks and women getting rights as progress either, yet it is considered progress now, which exactly is the point - you’re only capable of seeing progress happening up until now but you fail to acknowledge there is more room for progress.

About placing gays, ethnic minorities etc. on a pedestal - As far as I know such views are only espoused by extremists; I am talking about liberals in general and most of them advocate equal rights for gays, women, ethnic minorities etc. and not for them to be put on a pedestal above the majority. I am also aware that there are conservative extremists who still reject even women/black people rights, but I’m not concerned with the extreme minorities in this thread. I’m indicating how most positions regarding social issues/equality generally advocated by conservatives throughout the history have been rejected in favor of more liberal ones and pointing out the detrimental effect such history record has on evaluating conservativism as an ideology when it comes to social issues/equality.

According to history it is almost guaranteed that what a conservative says about gays/transsexuals/vegetarians now will be considered ignorant and bigoted even by the majority of conservatives couple of hundreds of years from now on, which significantly reduces their credibility and makes it hard for people to take them seriously.

The winner defines what is good and progressive. ‘Conservative’ is an antonym of ‘progressive’.

Conservatives have pretty much been on the wrong side of history since day one.
Conservatives always side with tradition and history, so they would have
rejected Jesus, Adam smith, Democracy, women’s right, capitalism, Socrates, to name
a few things that conservatives would have rejected at the time. If conservatives reject it,
it will soon be the fashion and soon after that conservatives will accept it, acting like
they owned it the whole time.

Kropotkin

When slavery is the norm, then those who previously advocated against slavery are labeled as conservative.

You guys are just sticking a derogatory tag on others.

The check; and the balance isn’t a terrible survival strategy within the varied circumstance of environmental/cultural change.

Let’s make it simple:

I believe what is proper to believe.

Everyone who does not believe as I do, is stupid.

I think that sums it up. :-"

I don’t think that’s what he’s saying at all.

PK: Conservatives have pretty much been on the wrong side of history since day one.
Conservatives always side with tradition and history, so they would have
rejected Jesus, Adam smith, Democracy, women’s right, capitalism, Socrates, to name
a few things that conservatives would have rejected at the time. If conservatives reject it,
it will soon be the fashion and soon after that conservatives will accept it, acting like
they owned it the whole time."

Phyllo: When slavery is the norm, then those who previously advocated against slavery are labeled as conservative.
You guys are just sticking a derogatory tag on others."

K: As slavery was in the bible, conservatives favoring tradition and history, have championed slavery
(in fact, still do today) during the civil war, it was the south favoring tradition that stood for
slavery. It isn’t a derogatory tag if it is the truth.

Kropotkin

You use ‘conservative’ in a derogatory way - Whatever happened …they were against it. That is why you put ‘democracy’ on your list. If were living in a fascist dictatorship then you would have said that conservatives were against it. ](*,)
‘Conservative’ is just a dirty word for you.

[quote=“phyllo”]

[quote=“Peter Kropotkin”]
PK: Conservatives have pretty much been on the wrong side of history since day one.
Conservatives always side with tradition and history, so they would have
rejected Jesus, Adam smith, Democracy, women’s right, capitalism, Socrates, to name
a few things that conservatives would have rejected at the time. If conservatives reject it,
it will soon be the fashion and soon after that conservatives will accept it, acting like
they owned it the whole time."

Phyllo: When slavery is the norm, then those who previously advocated against slavery are labeled as conservative.
You guys are just sticking a derogatory tag on others."

K: As slavery was in the bible, conservatives favoring tradition and history, have championed slavery
(in fact, still do today) during the civil war, it was the south favoring tradition that stood for
slavery. It isn’t a derogatory tag if it is the truth.

P: You use ‘conservative’ in a derogatory way - Whatever happened …they were against it. That is why you put ‘democracy’ on your list. If were living in a fascist dictatorship then you would have said that conservatives were against it. ](*,)
‘Conservative’ is just a dirty word for you.

K: You are wrong. if we were living in a fascist dictatorship, conservatives would be for it because it is
tradition and history. Liberals are against fascist dictatorship because it is wrong regardless of
the fact it has existed for a time. Tradition and history are the driving force of conservatives.
Conservative being a dirty word? NO, just someone who is confused.

Kropotkin

Time to step back and rethink. Warning signs of bias:

What I promote is rational, normal, right, natural, progressive.

What I believe is currently in favor.

Everything can be split into two diametrically opposed positions.

You put democracy on the list even though it is tradition and history NOW.

You want to make the point that ‘conservatives oppose change’.

You are saying that when democracy was initially being implemented, the conservatives of the time were against it.

Okay that seems to support you position. But a change from democracy to fascism would also be opposed by conservatives of the time. That would be potentially be a good thing but you can’t give conservatives credit for it. That’s not how you roll. Your view is that liberals support what is right and conservatives oppose everything. :astonished:

Very valid point Phyllo and extremely well put.

Don’t really feel like getting involved in the PK - phyllo exchange. PK’s views are a little too liberal for me to identify with and defend.

Not necessarily, it depends if it’s a libertarian or authoritarian conservative.

Liberals by definition oppose a strong authoritarian government.

Also, conservatives use liberal in a derogatory way just like liberals use conservative in a derogatory way. Who the fuck cares. This isn’t a thread to whine about perceived political incorrectness.

Maybe the time will come when humanity will reaches its peak concerning the quality of a political ideology so that any further alteration of it would be deviating from the best possible and therefore regress and not progress. In other words, it is possible that there would eventually come a time when conservatism (preservation of the current state of affairs) will be the most rational and appropriate position to uphold. Other possibility is that progress is never ending, unceasing, and therefore there will never come such a time when preserving the current state of affairs would be more rational as opposed to making progress.

Progression, as a definition or description, always necessarily entails a direction, a goal, an objective. What is always amusing to me is that when you speak to a progressive their beliefs always tend to rest upon terms which are inherently impossible to define because they are idealistic to the point of rejecting realism/reality. ‘Good’, ‘Humanity’, ‘Equality’. The most intelligent minds on planet earth would fail to reach anything like a consensus on any of those words and yet some people are energized and motivated by them. Some people attach emotions and interpretations to these words which give them great personal meaning… and yet they are not real things… So where are we heading?

The finest philosophical minds that I am aware of all tend to accept that no good or evil can really be said to exist. Beyond Good and Evil is reality. When humans reach a state of relative abundance they detach from the natural world. Here ‘function’ is dependent on social and technological rather than natural environments. In nature dominant forms reproduce and inferior ones are more likely to die or experience predation. The biological nature of all life forms is, crudely, to perpetuate genetic material. As man becomes more self-aware, his intelligence perceives ways in which he can shift the odds in his genetic favour and beyond his lifetime. This is why, to put it bluntly, war, tribalism, racism, sexism and strict hetero-normativity are all perfectly sensible from a biological standpoint. All of these offer an advantage that increase the likelihood of genetic continuity within a tribe: the oldest and most organic social arrangement.

It requires technology and civilization, a very high level of Order and complexity, to mitigate the advantageous aspects of these behaviours. For typical progressives to demonize and pathologize naturally advantageous behaviours from a moralistic position, when it is technology that made these changes possible, allows one to understand why socialism, transhumanism, androgyny and anti-natalism are increasingly common ideologies. The thing they all have in common is that they all desire/demand a movement towards a totally fluid state of uniformity and interactivity and a rejection of nature and natural dispositions and designations. A social and technological singularity. The vague nature of equality, humanity and goodness makes them unfalsifiable given that they are not terms which refer to something tangible. So what we have is a movement towards a hive-like vision of the future where all pain is minimized and all limitations are reduced to the point of mitigation…but not quite. ‘Bliss’, ‘Heaven’, ‘Utopia’. These are terms which describe the desired state of affairs in some future never quite attained, never actually realized. This creates the ‘progressive’: one who is proud to make way for any changes that are deemed democratically and socially positive or ‘good’ lest he stand on the ‘wrong side of (social) history’.

The sad truth is that the ‘wrong side of history’ now has nothing to do with healthy natural dispositions of perpetuating you and your kind, and in fact has come to represent the perpendicular opposite. ‘There is only one race - the human race’, ‘I am not having children because we are overpopulated’, ‘noone is better than anyone else’: these are windows into the psychology of progressive politics, an out and out denial of the most pertinent aspects of nature exhibited by all known species except, increasingly, one. It’s extension is ‘I don’t matter because everyone is the same anyway’ making the system itself (or more accurately the process of systematisation) the new equivalent of me, or tribe or God: something within which ones life is fully encompassed. At some point humans will either become secondary to A.I. or will re-incorporate nature into our social and cultural models. It is worth mentioning that every remarkable achievement that man’s intelligence has so far conjured up have been resistance to time and to change, Order, be it a building, a discipline, an ideology or culture. The highest types of order have, so far, all been a resistance against the pressures of passing time, not a capitulation to it.

If change is the only constant then order can be described as that which predicts and endures the changes that time brings about naturally. This is why Will and Imagination are the highest traits that man possesses.

I think Phyllo has a valid point in that if we take out fundamentalist liberals and conservatives then most, if not all, conservatives (and liberals) would not support a change from democracy to fascism. In such a case why aren’t the conservatives being given credit where credit is due. One could argue that fundamentalist conservatism may support fascism in the same way that a fundamentalist liberalism may support anarchy. I think neither is favourable and I think the vast majority on both sides support the norm. I think Phyllo is suggesting that there is selective attention and inattention. Are there any circumstances where conservatists got it right? Obviously there are countless examples where they did.