Beautiful quote yet again from one of the masters. Quite like this definition.
Saihung was one of these people. Believed to be aloof, ambivalent and decidedly unpopular with general society as a rule … he just always knew when he was, and always in the present, without ever a need to express it in any form.
This type of person appears strange and troublesome because they manifest an energy, not found in the general mundanities of normal living.
Well done, angelic one.
Not attempting to speak for brother tentative, but I believe this is why he posited this particular query mrn.
He is not alone if believing that most who start off fearing the unknown, never go anywhere with it.
We need a direction. If we do not know God then it is impossible to know how to act from our heart and not from our opinion.
A
Again, not meaing to speak for brother tentative, but I believe his question is regarding human observation gained knowledge.
Was it not you angelic one, who posted the story of the old lady and the needle from Osho?
We are back to this point, once again. What is necessary for wisdom, is already contained within. Why search endlessly for the needle, when inside, is already found all knowledge of divinity, that comes not of the flesh, but of the spirit.
There is biblical support for this idea of moving from fear to love as a relationship grows…
1 John 4
17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
So, I think it is true that eventually fear gives way to love. However, I’m not sure that many of us including myself are mature enough that fear can be discarded.
Definitely. Call me a pessimist but I don’t see it happening any time soon.
Mastriani,
Both you and tentative I believe have a very solid point.
I am not trying to counteract that. It is one thing to know that God is inherent, it is quite another thing come to that, to understand that and to then manifest that. If we are asleep, we do not know it. When our heart begins to stir it is only because inherently we connect with that which is aparently outside of us. Everything outside of us is a reflection of what is inside of us and that law is not dependent on any level of consciousness. If I am an angel, the world will appear angelic, if I am a devil the world will appear evil. To know God, it is better to know yourself but for those of us that are beginning to awaken, still sleepy but with a heart that moves, we need to learn how to manifest that which is inside of us. Otherwise it is intellectual discussion.
A
I will find agreement with most of that, with one glaring exception:
This then is disagreeable. It is far better to unlearn those things we have been taught, that causes us to hide the luminescence with false knowledge. Again, speaking out of hand, because I am obviously not brother tentative, here seems to be the issue with fearing God, which is an effect of attempting to collect human knowledge, which is antithetical to that which creates and illuminates.
We constantly look for mud, find the mud, define the mud and hold it up to heaven, declaring “Look what we found that speaks of you”, then when the darkness doesn’t lift … we search for more mud, only now more frantically, because fear has risen in the heart and the mind, that all this mud we keep holding up, isn’t going to bring God to us.
My children know God, and do not fear, because they have not yet learned the action of knowing, which is the root of adult ignorance, which is the precursor of fear.
A very perceptive picture of humans searching within themselves for truth when the only source of real truth is found through divine revelation.
Mastriani,
I don’t mean to be pedantic, but I didn’t say that we need to go with our conditioning.
The innocence of children is beautiful but it is naive. The innocence that comes out of experience has a quality of wisdom - which is really what counts…
A
[/quote]
[/quote]
Whats with the eye rolling? I said your comment was perceptive. What more do you want? 
LOL, angelic one, I wouldn’t term you pedantic, just opinionated. LOL.
Innocence of children naive? LOL. Why?
Because they don’t posture ludicrously, based on assumptions of knowledge?
Because they don’t assume ego driven greatness for found knowledge?
Because they do not assume division where none is needed?
Because they have no need of knowing, that in just being, they are complete within themselves?
LOL. There is no adult quality of wisdom, that is a complete oxymoron. LOL. If you want the answers you so desperately seek, then stop living as an adult, and take to living as a child, childlike.
Put away ego, forget arrogance, dissolve division, unlearn knowledge, summarily … bury everything “adult” about you, and believe it never existed, because it never did.
A child lives for awe, creativity, inspiration and love. Nothing more is needed beyond those criterion.
[/quote]
Whats with the eye rolling? I said your comment was perceptive. What more do you want?
[/quote]
Eye rolling just in general. Twist my words if you choose, that was not my intent with those words.
Wow, shut this machine off for a few hours and… Mas, Thanks for covering me while I took a break…
Hi Jerry,
I’ll step out there and say that fear is always negative, or the consequences are negative. I agree that fear can be a powerful motivator. Knowing when to run may be the only postive aspect of fear, but that is an instinctive fear, and not quite what I was trying to get at.
There is no question that we are capable of understanding that we may not ‘know’ in any particular experience, and from that, we take away ‘lessons’ and new understanding from each and every experience.
I would suggest that what you are calling ‘misgivings or apprehensions’ is projecting into a non-existent future. It is asking, what if I’m inadequate? What if I’m missing something that I shouldn’t be missing? What might happen to me if I’m inadequate? You say further that perhaps these apprehensions may be telling us something important, and I would agree. They are telling us that we have no perfect knowledge of the universe or ourselves.
The thrust of my original post is to ask why do we remain stuck here? We are an imperfect and unknowing creature with the capacity to learn and understand with every new experience. That is the gift of our particular life form. If we ‘know’ that we can experience, learn, and understand, why would we fear that? We are what we are in this moment, and yes, we will be more experienced, more knowing, more understanding for every moment of our allotted time, but fear suggests that we will ‘miss’ something or run out of time, or that we may not measure up in some way.
So yes, accept ourselves as imperfect, with more to experience, know, and understand. But to fear is to deny the process of living in the present and pushes us into preparing for a future that never arrives. “My life will be perfect just as soon as I know, just as soon as I arrive at, just as soon as I understand…”
MRN,
Is love of truth the motive? Yes, and more. I would suggest that our true nature is one of empathetic love; love of self, love of others, and love of all that is. I don’t mean this in some hippy sappy ‘new age’ way, but in accepting ourselves as we find us, and growing from there. Fear (always in the future) is a denial of “grace” if you will. It is telling the universe (God) that you didn’t give me enough to do this, and I need more.
Blu:TGI,
You disagreed with me in your first sentence and then agreed with me in your second sentence…
LA,
You say we need a direction and that we need this direction to act from our heart and not our opinion. I would suggest that we are the direction and that heart/mind is always opinion. To speak of direction and opinion is to create constructs outside of ourselves. We can do that. Most people do exactly that. I would suggest that we know God. We just need to let the constructs, the walls go, and have faith that our experiences ARE the universe (god). Our experiencing, the learning from heart/mind, the understanding of that is what we are as a unique expression of God.
You’re it, angel. In this moment, you’re all that is.
Ned,
Both you and MRN have arrived at the consequence of leaving fear behind. It was what I was implying in my first post, even though we may have taken a different route…
Quite true A… And if you take it one step further you will see why this question of fear is so difficult for so many. It begins on a different premise.
This human condition you refer to is the root of our insignificance, our nothingness. Experiencing our insignificance as our chaotic inner condition that allows us to love and hate the same thing will naturally inspire a need for help and a fear of loss of what can help.
If I were happily married for twenty years to a woman I cherished I could both love her and fear her absence. Is this contradictory? No, because as a man she is supplying something both desirable and necessary for me.
In modern times this idea in relation to the higher is politically incorrect since this idea of our insignificance or nothingness is repulsive to self esteem the culture has become dependent on. Without acknowledging our nothingness there is no reason to “need” so no FEAR of loss. Without it there is no connection between love and fear vital for us if we are ever to grow to experience higher love and meaning. So the question has a completely different premise and meaning in relation to either our objective nothingness or created self esteem
There is nothing wrong with this fear if it is pure. It just makes us attentive by recognizing our need for help and connection. In this way it serves as a tool towards awakening. But this is absurd for those that cannot comprehend sleep or the message of Plato’s cave that we live in a dream.
The only way to manifest what is inside of us is to begin by separating the wheat from the tares within: the real from the artificially created defenses. But this requires both the need and courage to do so. It is much easier to go with the flow and remain in established routines. In this way we lose the Fear of God through the neglect of our potential for awakening.
JT,
Yes yes, I am it right here now in this moment. I do understand that. But I have to say, when I have angry thoughts about you, like when I tell you to fuck off or some such nastiness, I have to ask myself who is acting? Where is God then?
A
LA,
Having angry thoughts about me is just another experience. (a lot of people have that same experience, BTW 
) The issue is less your emotion of anger, but what do you learn from it? What understanding of me or yourself do you go away with? You may not know for minutes, hours, days, or years, but at some point, the understanding of that experience will arrive, just as the understanding of all your life experience continues to unfold. That is the universe (god) experiencing itself through you. How you choose to act upon the understanding of that experience is another experience in itself. We are ever new and if we reside in our empathetic nature, there is no emotion, no thought that isn’t of God, nothing not in God.
To get this back on the ground… It is our accumulated understanding that brings us to our true empathetic nature. If there is such a thing as wisdom, it is this. Perhaps you will understand when I say I have no need to seek. All that is, resides in every experience, and as we accumulate understanding, we find ourselves closer to that which is our true nature. So love, hate, experience it all. That it is all of one is our returning to that which is, to god.
I do understand that anger is not of God. This is my experience. That anger is of the mind. Of course you are going to say that the mind is of God. I agree in as much as everything has been created by God, but that human beings are alos creators in their own right so not everything is of God.
I understand where you are coming from but I disagree.
Incidentally I don’t have angry thoughts about you.
A
Tangent!!!
To quote my eldest sons, when they hear something they are in complete agreement with,
Werd!!11oneone
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL 
End Tangent
LA,
Whether anger, hate, jealousy, or any other of the malignant or ‘negative’ emotions, They come from the same source. It is our experiencing and the following understanding that allows us to make choices that move us closer to our true nature. I understand your disagreement, but now we go off into the world of intent, and we’ve been over that ground lots of times…
You don’t have any angry thoughts of me? Hmmm, I must be doing something wrong… 