You’re right that it is more difficult for a woman to divorce her husband, but she still has the right to, especially if, for example, she is being abused. As for the disabled husband issue, I have never heard of the idea that a woman is not eligible for child support or alimony of she supported her family. As far as I know, she is eligible for those things no matter what. Unfortunately, I am not the most knowledgeable in issues of divorce, so if you have sources that show otherwise, please do share.
I would say that if I compared the Muslim families I know and the non-Muslim families I know, the Muslim husbands have proven themselves to be much more helpful. This is just based on what I have seen. My father works until late at night every day, but he still does all the grocery shopping, cooks us breakfast over the weekends, spends Sunday outside with the gardeners, took us out for numerous trips when we were younger (often single-handedly taking on the task of all us kids while my mom chose to stay at home and take a break), took us shopping as kids just as often as my mother, etc. And many of my Muslim friends’ fathers are no different.
Yep, even if undeserved. Even if one’s parents are the evilest of evil, a Muslim is not permitted to disrespect them.
No
Oh my! I am thinking this phrase in Arabic that we say at times like this, but I don’t quite know how to translate it into English. Alhamdulillah alal Salaamah…Thank God for your safety. Kind of. We say it when someone’s been through something difficult, or just arrived from a trip safely, etc.
Exactly
You playa you!
Muslim men are no longer allowed to have concubines. The concept became obsolete with the Islamic abolishment of slavery (47:4). Any current practice of concubinage is due to local customs
Cuz the Middle East is whack.
Hehe…my mother is a dentist/orthodontist (DDS) with a Masters in microbiology/immunology and a PhD in educational leadership. She has quite the say in everything, from finances to where she wants to go. She and my father have always been on equal footing, with shared bank accounts and shared responsibilities. And she is a devout Muslim. And she is not a rare case. Most of my Muslim friends’ mothers’ are in the same boat.
I was not making the claim that there is no American culture. I was saying that if Muslims are singled out as guests, then everyone else should be as well, because Muslims have been part of American society for quite a while.
Hehe…my mother is a dentist/orthodontist (DDS) with a Masters in microbiology/immunology and a PhD in educational leadership. She has quite the say in everything, from finances to where she wants to go. She and my father have always been on equal footing, with shared bank accounts and shared responsibilities. And she is a devout Muslim. And she is not a rare case. Most of my Muslim friends’ mothers’ are in the same boat.
I love this! You guys are Americans after all. We are devote and support all of the rules. Well that’s for other people not us though, because we’re all devote and shit like that.
My mom is rich and educated and throws her weight around in the house and in public. Meanwhile, your mom can dream about reading and walk around in a boy scout tent with nothing to do except cook and make babies. Hey, I’m off to college! Have fun!
Dude, you must be on some intellectual nostalgia trip for a time and a place that your whole family has rejected. Get real. You guys are only devote in your minds.
were you drunk when you posted that? because i have no idea wtf you were saying.
if i DID understand correctly, this:
“Meanwhile, your mom can dream about reading and walk around in a boy scout tent with nothing to do except cook and make babies. Hey, I’m off to college! Have fun!”
was an insult to my mom, and you best not go there you little bitch. i’ve been patient through your insults and attacks, but this shit i have no tolerance for.
if you’re trying to say that no “normal” american citizens are devout Muslims, you’re pathetic. you’re so threatened by God-fearing religion that you have to fight it and deny it in any way possible. you’re adamant about your closed minded belief that islam is exactly how you say it is. but it’s ok adler, i know. i know you’re scared. you’re seeing that the pretty little bubble you’ve been dwelling in is closing in on you. that’s right…you don’t want to accept it, but…nnooooo…we’re out there, adler. we’re there in the grocery stores, the malls. we’re the guy in the blue jeans ringing up your purchase. we’re the lady in the white coat operating on you. we’re the man you called for legal advice. we’re the students walking around university campuses. that’s right, ad. seal your windows, lock your doors. there’s no escaping us. muahahahahahahahahaa!!
and there seems to be absolutely nothing you can do about it except resort to personal insults and attacks on a girl half your age and size. it’s alright sweetie, i understand you’ve got to deal with your fear somehow…so i’ll continue to take it, for your sake. go on ahead, ad. i’ll help you get started. i’m a liar! i dont know what i’m talking about! muslims in america are not normal! they’re not! no no no no no noooo!
“Meanwhile, your mom can dream about reading and walk around in a boy scout tent with nothing to do except cook and make babies. Hey, I’m off to college! Have fun!”
This is you addressing some person living in some Muslim hell hole while your family and self have nothing to do with the realities of what you preach.
I’m not threatened by anything you have to say.
It now sounds to me like you are a second generation American that is having a fantasy trip about the old country. I have a lot of Italian friends like this. The marvel at the wonders of the Italian culture, but humorously enough would never move there, mostly because it’s kind of poor! It’s nostalgia for a place that you were never part of.
They are torn between America and the land of their parents (which they rejected by moving here).
First of all, you know nothing about my family or Muslim families in general, so cut out your unfounded psychoanalyses. How the hell do you know how much reality I do and don’t know? For your goddamn information, I have been to the Middle East over a dozen times, and each time I spend months there, so I am quite familiar with the realities of the situation. Furthermore, I am first generation and not second, so obviously my parents, who were born & raised in the Middle East, know of these “realities†you speak of. And when I go there and spend months in the home my mom was raised in, and interact with Muslims from the Middle East on a daily basis, I think I’m getting a much more accurate depiction of these “realities†than you and your goddamn remote control.
Second of all, your characterization of a “Muslim hell hole†is just flat out stupid.
Third of all, I’m not trying to “threaten†you with what I say. I was joking with the threats but clearly you’re scared enough to take them seriously. What the hell would I try to threaten you with.
Fourth of all, I’m not torn between America and anything, because I am not talking on a nationalistic level (in case you STILL have not realized). I keep speaking of ISLAM and you keep speaking of other PLACES. Get it straight.
Fifth of all, I have no fantasy trip about the old country. If I wanted to live there I would, regardless of the wealth. I do enjoy spending time there from time to time, which is why I visit. But I prefer to live in America and never said anything anti-American or pro-Middle East. As a matter of fact, I have made many statements against the Middle East. And this country was built upon various values, including that of freedom of religion. Accept it. Other people, including Muslims, are just as much a part of American culture as your white ass.
Sixth of all, stop making stupid assumptions and stop trying to psychoanalyze me.
I believe that I am correct, as we all do what we will do and you are not living the life that you endorse here. So, you and your family reject the very lifestyle that you always defend, and that says it all.
There are hordes of religious people just like this. It’s typically American.
I know you're capable of more than this. How often does any Christian/Jew/Atheist/Republican/Democrat/Socialist write a book about their views, suddenly conclude that they are invalid, and then become the exact opposite of what they were? Picking out religious folks as being especiallly insincere or unscholarly is ridiculous. Espcially for a reason like this. The obvious answer to your question is that people of all stripes change their beliefs all the time, in response to new evidence or circumstances in their lives. People who are educated/zealous enough to print a book about their beliefs are obviously less likely to change them than someone else.
That sort of statement might fly in the Rant House, but here in the Religion forum, you need to argue for things like that. Take a look around, especially at the history of philosophy, and it’s extremely obvious that NO, a rational person need not conclude that religion is a sham or misunderstanding, for there extremely intelligent, rational people on all sides of the issue of religion, and there always have been.
Classic. If all religions are false, and this fact is so painfully obvious that you see no reason to argue for it or back it up, perhaps you're a bit out of place in a [i]Religion[/i] forum, eh?
Then don’t read it, and don’t talk to religious people about religious matters. You won’t see engaging conversations about whether or not the earth is round.
I cannot figure out why the concept of “conflict of interest†is so hard to follow. If Tom Cruise wrote a book on scientology what do you think that it would focus on? Would the work involve critical thinking? You know the answer.
1.That sort of statement might fly in the Rant House, but here in the Religion forum, you need to argue for things like that.
Yes, I see what you are saying, but is this the “you must agree†religious forum? I’m an atheist and as one I tend to see religion as either a neutral or a harmful thing. As I have said, I believe that it alone can make people insane. It’s an important topic and I particularly think that Islam is an important and topical focus. It as a religion needs to be debunked.
However, if people want to talk about who cleaned up on Noah’s ark I have little interest and will stay out of it.
Classic. If all religions are false, and this fact is so painfully obvious that you see no reason to argue for it or back it up, perhaps you’re a bit out of place in a Religion forum, eh?
I covered this.
Then don’t read it, and don’t talk to religious people about religious matters. You won’t see engaging conversations about whether or not the earth is round.
It needs to be read and so that it will be easy to understand the motives of crazy people that want to control my life or kill me. Frankly, I believe that all religions should be part of a critical thinking class in school.
Finally:
You are promoting a rather anti-intellectual position here. That’s yet another one of my problems with religious people.
All that aside, I have done very little in this forum thus far and don‘t have any plans to.
You will notice that in a few threads here i actually speculate positively about what god would do.
Also, your message illustrates just how “precious†religion is to people. I don’t think that people go around getting angry because someone doesn’t like Heidegger or existentialism. I don’t hear, “well don’t read existentialism if you don’t believe in it,†being shouted.
If religion is beyond confrontation and analysis, then it should be removed as a subject.
Sorry to bug you though, as you remember I have been on your side in arguments before, because I thought that they were good arguments. Now, you don’t agree with me, however, I hope that you realize that I think that this is an important topic as well.
There's nothing wrong with the concept of 'conflict of interest', I understand what you mean and you're right about it to an extent. What I'm saying is, it's not right to apply it to religious folks more than anybody else. An atheist is an atheist for a [i]reason[/i], and his reasons color anything he writes about religion. It would be easy enough if all atheists believed the way they did because they were super-intelligent folks who saw through the lies that fool everyone else, but of course even as an atheist yourself, you have to grant that's not [i]always[/i] the case. An atheist might just hate religion because his parents forced him to go to church instead of letting him play basketball when he was young.
Again, that's a perfectly acceptable position to take (that I happen to disagree with). It's the "And I refuse to argue for this, because it's so obvious that all smart people should already agree with me" where you go astray. By all means come in here and be an atheist, and argue for or against whatever you want to argue for or against. But if you want your atheism to be[i] taken as a given[/i], well, this just seems like an odd place to converse.
What position is that, exactly?
If you considered what I said shouting, then I will try to soften my approach. Nevertheless, I stick by my statement. As a general rule, if you have a position so strong on a matter that you think you needn’t bother defending it, because any smart/sane/rational person will agree with you anyways, then I don’t see the productivity in participating in a discussion forum devoted to that very issue. Again, it’s not your stance that is objectionable, it’s your “And I refuse to defend my position because if you’re smart enough to be worth my time, you already agree with me” thing. And don’t get me wrong, I feel that same way about certain things as well.
If religion is subject to confrontation and analysis, then so is atheism.
It’s quite unfortunate that the student was put into this terrible position. However, it is certainly not true that spending one’s money to support her family violates Islamic law. As I explained, the “Islamic†courts are not always so unislamic. The more stories like this I hear, the more convinced I become It’s terrible. But she definitely did not violate Islamic law in doing what she did. She did something noble in helping out her family. The husband probably had a strong lawyer or something. Who knows. But Islamically, women are entitled to child support & alimony.
Very interesting. Unfortunately I have not heard any firsthand accounts so I’m curious as to what it’s actually like.
It’s not the parent’s place in society…it’s just the fact that they’re one’s parents, and one should not disrespect those who bore and raised him/her. Of course Islam requires that one respects everyone, regardless of who they are. For example, many verses in the Qur’an discuss one’s behavior with others. One indication of Muslims’ duty to respect all is a verse in the Qur’an which praises Mohammad for his morality, stating “and you are of an exalted moral character†(68:4). Also, the Quran describes people who attain happiness or success in life as those who are “inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong" (3:104). Another verse states, “wealth and children are an adornment of this world’s life, but good deeds, the fruit of whereof endures forever, are of a far better merit in your Sustainer’s sight, and a far better source of hope†(18:46). The Quran also praises those who “feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive” (76:8). So it’s important to be kind to all and do good.
Nonetheless, there is a special emphasis placed on parents and particularly mothers. As I mentioned, many verses demand their respect, and one verse disallows a person from even saying “uff†to his/her parents, which is like the Arabic version of “ugh.†Even a disrespectful grunt is forbidden.
It’s forbidden to behead prisoners of war, as we see happening these days. It’s forbidden to harm any innocent person. As for certain punishments that are prescribed for specific crimes, I think they should be carried out if done completely in accordance with Islamic law. The Middle Eastern customs are rarely done as such. If a crime calls for the death penalty, I think it should be carried out, in the proper manner. It’s really rare for one to receive such harsh punishments and really hard to prove their guilt (Islamic standard of proof is very high), but if a person deserves a punishment, and it is carried out in true accordance with Islamic law, I have no objection. Because the Middle Eastern governments often misuse their powers and rarely carry out Islamic law properly, I think they should do one of two things: 1. Stop trying and claiming to have “Islamic†governments because they are not qualified and well-versed enough in Islamic law to do so, and because they often abuse their powers, or 2. Learn Islamic law properly, and implement it by the book…something that requires very knowledgeable and learned Islamic scholars to do the judging.
You’re very lucky
Unfortunately, I don’t think the western media is any better. It’s quite hard to find a credible media source. These stations’ negative opinions are not necessarily unfounded (although preaching violence & hate is certainly not proper). The Middle Eastern media may speak out against Israel because of its history of violence and brutality towards Palestinians. This aspect is very much downplayed in Western media, as the Palestinians are almost always portrayed as the aggressors. But just as the Middle Eastern media is biased towards Palestinians, the western media is often biased towards Israel. At any rate, I’m building up my education, both political and religious, national and international, such that one day I can have a credible voice that will be heard, both here and abroad.
Hum, I have read extensively that disagrees with your claim that they are all talk. Please review the following link and respond: iona.ghandchi.com/emerson.htm
Yes, I am a very concerned patriotic U.S. citizen.
Hi aspacia
Sorry, I’m out of town for a few weeks & don’t quite have the internet at my fingertips or the time to correspond. I’ll be in touch when I return.
I admit I had preconceived notions of you prior to communicating with you firsthand, based on statements such as yours to AD that he would not be welcome on your property because he is a “fanatic.” It seemed like you dubbed him a fanatic based on his knowledge of Islam & the fact that he was defending the religion, and you concluded that because he knew about & defended Islam he was “deeply religious,” and hence a “fanatic” & wouldn’t be welcome. I thought those conclusions to be rash & unwarranted. Although he argued otherwise, let’s assume he is deeply religious. That does not, by any means, make him a dangerous fanatic
However, once I began conversing with you I realized that your intentions are pure and you are simply out to find answers, and I admire your desire to learn.
Thanks, and I do enjoy learning regarding most disciplines. Discovery, National Geographic, Guns&Ammo are great fun. Careful regarding Guns & Ammo. My thesis is a scathing analysis of three of the contributers, but many of the articles provide insight regarding firearms.
I found this in the Washington Post and found it interesting. I am hesitant to email you this link as I do not want to offend you. I have read this man’s essays and found the Satanic Verses absolutely hilarious, similar to Monty Python’s The Holy Grail. The author appears to hold similar views to your own.
Also, Avicenna may respond if he wants to. Avicenna, I really am not trying of offend you. Also, I hold similar views that this article purports regarding the Bible too.
I’m not so much speaking of your feelings about AD specifically as I am of your feelings about Islam in general, which seemed to surface in your conversations with AD. I may have misunderstood your statements to him, but it seemed to me like they reflected a general negativity towards Muslims. For example, your comment about him not being allowed on your property appeared to be not just based on your reservations about him, but rather geared toward anyone who defended Islam with a passion, because that sheds a suspicious light on them. That’s just what it sounded like to me, but please correct me if I’m wrong. After conversing with you personally I realize I may have misunderstood your intentions. At any rate, it’s fine if you merely have reservations about him as an individual. He’s only human, so he is subject to erring and losing his temper when he is angry, as we all are. But when this makes you afraid or bothers you because he is a Muslim who is subject to losing his temper, that’s where I feel the line has been crossed. That’s what he was trying to explain to you as well; that he’s the average American guy, but he happened to be defending Islam. For you to doubt that he’s an average American and to see him as a threat or fanatic because he defended Islam and sometimes became angry is nonsense. Nonetheless, you’re right in believing that he’s not quite the average American guy. He’s a lot taller, better looking, and more intelligent.
And I don’t blame him at all for his comment to Adler. No one should be insulted the way Adler has insulted Muslims. I consider myself a pretty even-tempered person, but even I began to lose my temper and curse when Adler pushed me overboard. AD has every right to be pissed off when characterized (amongst other things) as a parasite, just as anyone has the right to be pissed off when insulted.
Here’s the problem: You say you are greeted with hostility from Muslims but always presented with answers from Christian and Jewish theologians. Allow me to present you with an analogous situation. Let’s say I decide I want to learn about Christianity. Can I walk around the Beverly Center and approach people wearing crosses, and ask them to please explain Mark 6:10, John 12:45, Luke 22:36-60, and Matthew 5:28? Let’s say I do this, and one lady tells me she doesn’t know, another guy tries to explain but does so inadequately, another person gives an explanation that is totally off, and someone else tells me to piss off. Let’s say I do this persistently, every day…not only in the Beverly center, but at the grocery store, the beach, I even stand outside a church and ask the people coming out, and still…nothing. Can I decide that there is a problem with Christianity, because these people don’t have answers, or refuse to give them to me, while every Muslim and Jewish scholar I spoke to answered all my questions? No. Average Christians simply do not understand the Bible in all thoroughness, as average Muslims do not understand the Qur’an in all thoroughness. You cannot expect the average Muslim to have all the answers. If you sincerely desire answers, you must go to the right places. As you have approached Christian and Jewish scholars with your questions, you must likewise approach Muslim scholars. I guarantee you that if you go to legitimate Muslim scholars with your questions, you will be greeted with the same kindness and thoroughness that you were presented with from the Christians and Jews…no doubt. Web forums, internet searches, etc. ultimately just don’t cut it. Who knows who those people are out there. I can refer you to specific Islamic centers & scholars if you’d like.
As for the link you’ve got down, I am unable to look at it right now because I’ve got to jet…this trip has been keeping me quite busy. I will take a look at it when I get the chance.
Again, I appreciate your correspondence and I do enjoy conversing with you. I hope I did not offend you in any way, as I was merely presenting my honest perspective and I appreciate your honest answers.
I enjoy your insights and conversation too. No, I am not offened in the least. Sorry, that I came across in the wrong light. I am really not bigoted and am looking for insights.
It’s terrible. But she definitely did not violate Islamic law in doing what she did. She did something noble in helping out her family. The husband probably had a strong lawyer or something. Who knows. But Islamically, women are entitled to child support & alimony.
