Actually, as “a free, questioning secular society,” one does not have the right to free speech without granting others that same right: thus one is opened to ad hominem attacks and one is not protected from ad hominem attacks. One’s protection is probably limited to libel, perhaps, but certainly not in some forums; internet or otherwise. Basically, one speaks freely and nothing gives one the right to prevent others from speaking even more freely (nothing protects an individual from ad hominem arguments).
Noetician: You are remarkable! You are a true ambassador. Bravo!
Hey! What am I chopped liver? Wait!!! Don’t answer that!
“But when this makes you afraid or bothers you because he is a Muslim who is subject to losing his temper, that’s where I feel the line has been crossed.â€
As I recall in that particular thread the subject was becoming rather profane and speaking in a demonstrative fashion. This completely fit in with the mental image of the raving Islamic madman. WhenAdler reported that he had not been allowed into a Muslim funeral along with the deceased’s sister he essentially wanted to know where he lived. This was not inspiring.
Only a few months ago and Islamic person in New Jersey cut the throat of a fellow Coptic Christian citizen’s head off over a disagreement in a chat room. That’s not good.
“And I don’t blame him at all for his comment to Adler. No one should be insulted the way Adler has insulted Muslims.â€
Everything that he has said about Islam has either been a direct quote from the religious texts or an example of simple logical deduction based on conclusions that could be made from the religion’s tenants.
Meanwhile, I believe that he accurately pegged you as a dabbler in nostalgia and hypocrisy. AD fits the same bill as a self-professed American college boy a party animal. You guys defend a religious political system that you do not even participate in and by your very actions shun. Your families moved here to avoid living in your respective homelands, thus they rejected the system. People like you are dangerous because you romanticized oppression.
Anyway, everything that Adler has said about Islam is accurate and makes logical sense. However, it is also accurate to say that the complaints can be applied to several other religions. Some of the complaints are unique to Islam as the religion was started by a possibly psychotic, which Jesus certainly could have been, murderer, which Jesus was most certainly not. This is an indisputable fact as confirmed by both historians and the very books that Moslems hold dear.
What you did not like about my and other people’s posts is that they were true and accurate.
Comments about Moslems being parasites continues to hold true. I must qualify it though by saying that other religious groups act in the same exact way. I’m very familiar with the Amish community. These people are Christians that shun the surrounding area’s lifestyle and tend to avoid marriage with the surrounding non-homage population. However, their whole economic livelihood is centered around commerce with the non-Amish population. Thus, they take from the community while simultaneously wanting almost nothing to do with the community. This is what I and others are talking about. Some religious people are bigots and that is across the board.
Similar to you I am not a fan of religions. I have had Muslim students who excelled and my dentist is Muslim and no parasite.
What is aggravating is the many come to the West, then insult the West’s culture and recently have attacked Madrid, London, etc. Many claim it is because of Iraq, it is not. Cache’s of bombs have been found in Germany and France who openly criticized the war.
Many extremists use our free speech to call for our destruction. These extremists have claimed that they will use our laws and demographics to destroy us.
Just remember, these are extremists, similar to Tim McVey, and Rudolph, and many Muslims really do condem all forms of terrorism, except for terror against Israel which I find hypocritical if Islam really does condemn terrorism.
In any case, thank-you for pointing out the fact that we were personally insulted for questioning. Also, AD realizes that he reacted poorly, as I did and he does acknowledge he has a short fuse. He is young, and in time he will probably outgrow this.
Any intelligent person does not resort to ad hominem fallacies to win a debate. Yes, they can do this, but in fact it diminishes the crediblity of the debater. Obviously, you have limited or no academic training in logic.
Also, free speech is limited in the USA. One cannot yell “fire” in a crowded theater if there is not fire. One cannot incite violence or make threats. This is a recent development, but is now considered “terrorist threats” and it is now illegal. Threatening another poster could bring charges against the poster and prompt a search warrent to this site.
Yes, I have to agree regarding Noetician and she has changed her stance regarding how she views me.
Is that an ad hominem argument? What can we logically conclude if it is an ad hominem argument?
Yelling “fire” in a theatre is not ad hominem. Threatening someone does not require ad hominem arguments. There is nothing in the rule book that prevents any citizen to call President Bush “a jerk” or a “fool.” However, if you threaten the President (even without resorting to ‘name calling’) you are in violation of law. If it is your argument that because free speech is limited one is not allowed to call someone a “fool” or an “idiot” or a “nazi”, then you are mistaken.
Note: We are not engaged in anything but polite discussion right? At least, that is my sentiment.
Yes, your dentist might be a nice guy. However, would he allow your son (don’t know that you have one) to marry his daughter? That’s what I’m talking about. It’s the idea that I will be nice to these people but would not want one in my family. That’s an example of living in a country but not wanting to be part of it. My assumption would be that this is mostly to enjoy the lifestyle, but not wanting to add to it.
The book says, and Jews believe this as well, that god offered, and I assume psychically, the holy book to all of the people in the world, but only said group was moral enough to accept it.
The muslims believe that those groups that don’t remember this event have been perverted by their cultures and whatnot and that’s why they don’t remember. The idea is that people should remember it and so they are culpable for not remembering. I have said before that that makes even an Amazonian tribesman immoral and an infidel.
[.quote]
Yes, as you continually resort to personal insults, I have concluded that you lack training in logic. Am I mistaken? Please correct me if I am and please explain your academic training.
Yes, but your original claim revolved around free speech. I simply pointed out that free speech is limited. Ad hominem attacks are protected as long as they do no libel a person.
True, but do you not agree that ad hominem fallacies causes many to question a debater’s credibility.
Yes.
-Thirst4Politeness
[/quote]
Good, then perhaps we can discuss and not attack each other. It appears that we agree and disagree regarding many issues. That is fine, I am open to debate, but after being insulted two or three times I can be downright mean, as you can be. Remember, I teach and have a backbone of steel and have had students expelled, ticketed, fined during my ten years of instructing. Only one of the above occured at the community college level, the rest at the high school level.
I have not insulted you in this thread. Do you think I have insulted you?
Agreed.
Agreed.
Now, if we posit your statements into the format below we can reach interesting conclusions:
Intelligent persons do not resort to ad hominem
Persons that resort to ad hominem lose credibility.
Thus, persons that resort to ad hominem are not intelligent and have no credibility.
We can thus further conclude that because you resorted to ad hominem attacks you are not intelligent and have lost your credibility. Now, the argument is invalid. Clearly, intelligent people like both you and me do resort to ad hominem. Though we may have both lost credibility having resorted to ad hominem. Would you agree? Again, we are involved in a polite debate. If you feel I have offended you I will try to clarify as that is NOT my intention.
Also, I dont know how soon I will be able to get to the internet after this, so I am sorry if I do not reply soon.
Aspacia:
Thanks again for your honest & thorough answers. Again, I’m sorry you have not received adequate answers about Islam & I hope I have been of help. Have you personally gone to Muslim scholars & not received answers? If so, I’m actually in shock because every Islamic scholar I have spoken to is very welcoming to everyone, including outsiders, & addresses questions w/o hesitation. Actually, I would happy to personally take you to a Mosque where you can meet a scholar & ask your questions. If you live in So. Cal let me know & I really would not mind. I do have mosque contact info for you, and I will give it to you once I return home & get a hold of my address book.
Also, like I have told you, I am by no means a scholar on Islam but I know a thing or two, & I am always reading up on the religion, so continue to ask me any questions you may have…I am happy to answer what I know (although I might put the answers on hold until I return home in about a week & a half).
You sound like a good teacher. I’m happy to give you mine as well & you can feel free to contact me at any time. We can discuss this on PM.
I agree that Muslims should be open regarding their faith & explaining it, especially in this time. Also, it’s good that no Christian & Jewish websites or theologians attacked you, but have any Muslim websites or Muslim theologians attacked you?
Fun fun fun
Written conversation has a lot of shortfalls. It’s very hard to judge a person just based on text. Isn’t like 80 percent of communication non-verbal (something like 80…maybe its 70…)? Much can be misunderstood when there is no expression or personal connection there.
Awwww shucks…
Look at you, fishing for compliments. Here we go: Thirst is far from the average American guy. He’s a lot smarter, wittier, harder-working, and kinder to his wife.
Monsieur…everyone was getting angry in the thread. It’s not like everyone was all calm & peachy-keen & the Muslims came in & started going crazy. A lot of emotions were incited. We are only human.
Not good indeed. I’m sure non-Muslims have cut each others throats over petty disagreements too.
Absolutely untrue. Please re-read everything Adler has said. The majority of the readers, not just the few Muslims, reply that he is crazy & bigoted. He absolutely does not base everything on direct quotes or “logical deduction.” He is hateful & bigoted & has even brought in several supposed “quotes” from the Quran that do not exist in the book.
Monsieur…what are you talking about? First of all, I am not a boy, I am by no means a party animal, I have never in my life attended a college party, and I have never ever stated that I do not practice Islam. Actually, I have stated that I do practice the religion & I claim to be religious. What basis do you have to say that my very actions shun the Islamic system? What actions are you speaking of? Furthermore, my family did not move here to avoid living in their homelands. They loved their homeland & had no problem with it. They came here for graduate schooling & planned to stay temporarily, but it turned long-term when they got married & had a kid. Yes, I agree that there is better opportunity in America & that is why they stayed here. But they did not stay here because there was any problem with their homeland, & I have not in any way, shape, or form spoken of or romanticized their homeland or the system in “Islamic” countries.
Over 90% of ILPers will disagree with you…and as someone who has studied philosophy, I can safely say that it is absolutely not true that everything Adler has said about Islam makes “logical” sense. Much of what he says is extremely illogical.
I am an honest & straightforward individual. If I say I don’t like something because it is false, & I provide lengthy explanations, then I honestly don’t like it because I believe it is false.
Where do you get your basis that Muslims take from the population & contribute nothing? Again, what are you talking about? How many Muslims do you know that do this? Me, along with my family & all my Muslim friends, are very much a part of our American society…the only difference between us & other “typical” Americans is that we don’t participate in things we disagree with…for example, we don’t drink or engage in actions we feel are morally wrong. But besides that, we wholly participate in the community. As a matter of fact, I have contributed a hell of a lot to the general community…more than I can say about most of my non-Muslim friends. I am a regular volunteer for a Christian humanitarian foundation, I have volunteered for a hospital & for a government office…I am all over the place. I pay taxes, I vote, etc. Because I desire to marry a Muslim so that we can have our religion in common & so that our kids are raised Muslim does not make me a parasite. That was such an insulting, bigoted, & untrue statement from Adler that I cant believe you repeated it.
It’s unfortunate that you’re so unwelcoming to people who are different. By the way what you said made no sense. You said you would not welcome a Muslim in your family, and that is an example of Muslims enjoying the lifestyle but not adding to it. Wha?..
In spite of Sheikh Adler’s answer, I’m going to have to answer in the negative. No one is inherently evil according to Islam. And non-believers are not evil. Only evil people are evil, and it is not inherent evilness. They turned evil because they chose that path. Non-believers are simply non-believers & Muslims are commanded to treat them with respect & kindness.
No, it’s because he’s tall, good looking, and intelligent. There are plenty of short, ugly, & stupid Muslims out there no doubt. Adler, you really are a strange & interesting individual.
"Monsieur Zenith wrote:
Yes, your dentist might be a nice guy. However, would he allow your son (don’t know that you have one) to marry his daughter? That’s what I’m talking about. It’s the idea that I will be nice to these people but would not want one in my family. That’s an example of living in a country but not wanting to be part of it. My assumption would be that this is mostly to enjoy the lifestyle, but not wanting to add to it.
It’s unfortunate that you’re so unwelcoming to people who are different. By the way what you said made no sense. You said you would not welcome a Muslim in your family, and that is an example of Muslims enjoying the lifestyle but not adding to it. Wha?.."
Is this an attempt to be simple or what?
There are plenty of religious groups that do business with non-believers and are happy to do so. However, if one of their customers wanted to marry their daughter then that would be a different story. The message is that you are good enough to give me your money but not good enough to have in my family.
The question about the dentist is: is the man nice to you because you are his customer or because he considers you and your kind to be on equal ground. It’s a classic question to pose: would you have one of “those†in your family.
You appear to be back on your “innocent†game again.
There is nothing particularly wrong with only wanting like-minded people in your family. People tend to form groups with like-minded people, extending that to your family is not morally wrong. The main advantage is that you are going to have a more tightly knitted family with little risk of large, potentially family breaking arguments.
Noetician: In spite of Sheikh Adler’s answer, I’m going to have to answer in the negative. No one is inherently evil according to Islam. And non-believers are not evil. Only evil people are evil, and it is not inherent evilness. They turned evil because they chose that path. Non-believers are simply non-believers & Muslims are commanded to treat them with respect & kindness.
Me to Noetician:
You are such an incredible bullshit machine.
Firstly, it is 100% accurate that the Koran reports that all people on Earth were offered the holy word, but only muslims were good enough to accept it. The Torah says the same thing. This implies that everyone else is an infidels and a heretic, thus an inherently bad person. That’s simple logic.
Also, muslims believe that a person’s path is written in the cosmic book or whatever. So, if you do something bad then that is the way that you have been designed. It’s a belief in providence like some Pilgrims and Jansenists had.
You are quite ridiculous. Either you don’t know what you are talking about or you are lying for propaganda purposes. Either way, it’s shameful.
I didn’t just get off the boat from East Europe you know! I have been reading comparative religion for about thirty-five years and have explored much about Islam. Part of this has to do with business and wanting to know customs, while another aspect is to understand the nature of conflict. Adlerian and other people quoted easy to understand passages and ideas directly from text. They are clear.
Also, Adlerian mentioned that religion creates hero worship. That is hardly a new concept. Movies, TV, video games, books, and many other things cause changes of behavior. Certainly, a religious figure would have a great affect on people. The Muslim religious figure was a warrior that robbed and killed people that were not of his kind. The math is simple.
You know you really do come off as a fake or an apologist. Why not simply face up to what the religion is and what it’s founded on? If you don’t then you will be made a fool of over and over. Any half-wit can go get a book and read all about what Islam is based on, and that’s both for the good and the bad.
Perhaps, the idea that two women are needed to make a witness applies to you. Why not invite a friend and then we can get the full story.
Sarcastic?
Yes, but something is off about your posts. They aren’t critical and smell of deception.
The term “like-minded” is too soft. I’m sure that the aryan nation or the KKK would love to have you defend them though.
A person that says, " I don’t want any Jews or Niggers in the family," is not just rejects those that don’t share a like mind. The rejection of those of a different religion or race has much deeper implication than what you imply.
Maybe it took being away for a while, but when I quickly looked at this thread (when I saw Da Ali G was back, I couldn’t resist…), I saw some very strong resemblances between Adlerian’s and MZ’s writings. Even typos are the same (though I’ve seen others periodically make similar typos).
Not trying to kick up a sand or shit storm, but read MZ’s posts again. If he/she is NOT adlerian, he/she is likely in very close communication with him.
Now you are comparing Islam with KKK, and implying that they would say a thing such as “I don’t want any Jews or Niggers in the family”.
I’m sure some muslims are this way, but so are some Christians and philosophes. Such a blanket statement is unfair and says more about you than about Islam.
Monsieur Zenith,