Lust vs God

Astral · July 12, 2006, 8:06pm

Are you saying that NO human has ever known the truth?

Lets say I am in fact wrong. Does that still make you right?

While we both can be wrong only one can be right. If you are comfortable with your views then you should be set, even if you are not comfortable with mine.

Bessy · July 12, 2006, 8:37pm

Do you mean knowing the truth in the “I know where I left my cigarettes” truth ? or the truth in the spiritual sense? You do know the truth for you just as I know the truth for me.

You are absolutely right. [size=75](for you.)[/size] and I fully respect your beliefs just as I hope you will allow me to have mine. My only gripe with your frame of mind is one of single mindedness forgetting that most of the world isn’t Christian and they, too, feel that they “know.”

It puzzles me that you are so sure. Have you had an out-of-body experience ,a vision, or near death experience. Is it just a feeling? Doesn’t it scare you that your single mindedness could translate to another---- like a terrorist who feels that his religion makes him feel the need to be a human missile killing thousands of people because HE is so sure that it is the right thing to do? Bottom line: he knows the truth too. Hmmm.

Astral · July 12, 2006, 8:44pm

Bessy:

Do you mean knowing the truth in the “I know where I left my cigarettes” truth ? or the truth in the spiritual sense? You do know the truth for you just as I know the truth for me.

You are absolutely right. [size=75](for you.)[/size] and I fully respect your beliefs just as I hope you will allow me to have mine. My only gripe with your frame of mind is one of single mindedness forgetting that most of the world isn’t Christian and they, too, feel that they “know.”

It puzzles me that you are so sure. Have you had an out-of-body experience ,a vision, or near death experience. Is it just a feeling? Doesn’t it scare you that your singlemindedness could translate to another like a terrorist who could feel that his religion could make himself feel the need to be a human missile killing thousands of people because HE is so sure that it is the right thing to do? Bottom line: he knows the truth too. Hmmm.

Relative truth huh? Let me tell you what. I want you to hand that one off to God when you see Him. You know that truth is absolute. The only reason people created relative truth is to try and hide their stupidity and find a way to call correct peopel incorrect.

Good luck with never finding truth… after all… its only relative. Under that structure I am just as right as you are.

Like them apples?

Bessy · July 12, 2006, 9:04pm

astral,

I sense a sarcastic tone. Would Jesus like that kind of behavior? I wonder. The truth is… those who judge will be judged. I prefer applesauce frankly.

I was just kidding, but it sounded good, didn’t it? God, you are such a good role model.

Kriswest · July 12, 2006, 9:14pm

Astral:

Kriswest:

Darn it Dan the title had a ring of prowrestling on it. I lusted to see what you put here, because it sounded wierd and to tempting to pass up. since i am here I may as well enter my two senses worth only two cents probably

Astral:

Interesting thoughts. But humans are not so raw in their life. It that was the case dont you think God gave us a bad hand to start with? He basically doomed us from the start?

Our flesh is sin and lust. It seeks to pleasure itself. God will only allow those who have the strength of will to overcome the flesh to have everlasting life.

Go back to the account in Genesis. Why did God kick Adam and Eve out of the garden? He said because He could no longer trust them to obey Him. They now know the difference between good and evil because of eating the fruit. So… Instead of God condemning the people of His creation He instead offered salvation. For those who could prove themselves worthy, God is offering ever lasting life. The tree of immortality is in the Garden of Eden. We are testing ourselves for the right to partake of this Tree. This is why they were kicked out. God said He could not trust them to not eat of that Tree and become like Him, so He kicked them out. And placed a sword that faced every way over the tree and Cherubim at the gates of Eden to guard it.

When our flesh was created it was created like the animals. Given to fleshly desires that God placed into them. When we ate the apple we were no longer innocent of our flesh, and the only thing that saved us was the special fact we are created in His image and God does not wish for us to perish.

There may be a lot more in store for us later on… but only for those who can prove that they can transcend their flesh.

I am interested in hearing more explanation from you. Please provide more.

Explain how you feel happy to succumb to blackmail, threats and fall for bribery. If God faced any court in the land he would be found guilty of such crimes.

You don’t feel wierd or guilty about wanting to go to heaven and sit comfortably, while good kind souls are being punished in hell for not falling on their knees in fear of this god, during their really short lives compared to eternity.

You don’t think that is the least bit sick or demented? Why would you ever want to follow a god that has to resort to bribes threats and blackmail?

Why would you ever wish to follow a god that cruelly and abusively punishes his disobedient children for eternity?

Most religions are this way, which is why I won’t follow a religion, they don’t make sense, are cruel and hypocritical. But I do have spirituality for a supieror being, like a child to a parent. Not a slave to master.

Unless you are God, I fail to see how you would be a better Judge than He on who is worthy of everlasting life.

I like the God in mans court idea. This goes to show how stupid people can be when they think they know more than He who created all things. I would recommend that you not be that full of yourself. Heck people say I am full of myself all the time and I am not stupid enough to call God out. I know better than that.

This is everlasting life… I hardly think it would be Heaven with all the evil people running around causing all sorts of trouble.

Well, I see you won’t answer my moral questions in favor of hiding behind your god’s skirts. As far as me being full of myself I am not the one who is happy to hide behind my masters skirts while good souls perish for no other reasson then failing to worship the right way.

I prefer to defend the innocent and helpless against a God’s misuse of power. If this creature should decide to smite me down so be it. It won’t stop me I won’t fear it. If you believe it makes me full of myself to be a defender, well then I wear the badge proudly. Personally I don’t think a god would ever be the way most religions claim, so I really don’t have to worry now do I? No god would ever have such a self serving ego, Unlike its eartlhy followers. Pesonally I think if your god is choosing only those that bow down to it, to fill the heaven it sure is not a place I would wish to go.
Hell kind of sounds all warm and cozy with a better sort of people in comparison. Bring on the beer!

Astral · July 12, 2006, 9:18pm

Telling someone that you dont think they are right is hardly judgement. If so you are judging me just as I am you.

Did you ever hear me once say something should happen to you? Did I ever say you should go to hell or something?

At some level or another judgement must be made. This is not a bad thing. The part about judgement is being taken out of context in this case. That is a warning against unfair or unjust judgements from either an unknowning or hypocritial stand point.

If you would not let your 16 year old daughter date a 48 year old man you have just made an unfair judgement against that person right? And based on that you will be judged as well.

Judgement is called for, but fair judgement that is tempered with Truth, Justice, Mercy and Faith.

I am not judging you in the least. I only want to help people understand. And because I am so aggressive with it people are really taken aback.

I wonder how people would receive Christ Himself these days? I bet you would have treated Him worse than me. Christ spoke against the Saducess and Pharisees harshly, and they sought to lay hands on Him as well. They eventually did, hence His crusifiction. I have faith in Christ and have been justified. Why now must I appear before you with uncertainty, and then attempt to instruct you? I say you simply do not like what I had to say and care not for instruction but to cast aspersion against me.

We all are teachers and learners. I learn, but what I know… I know. Because my faith was rewarded I have seen truth that many have missed.

If you saw someone walking off a cliff how far would you go to stop them? This person cannot see they are about to walk off the cliff.

I see many people being just as this is. Imagine what Christ saw, and He knew the truth better than any of us!

Kriswest · July 12, 2006, 9:22pm

Bessy:

Astral,

What if the Bible was just a bunch of stories passed down to teach us life lessons? I have an inkling that you really thought that Jonah was swallowed by the whale and lived to tell about it or women are still unclean, or that the seas were parted or that (perhaps) we should just go sacrifice a lamb in the neighborhood cul-de-sac and get it over with.

Am I just too open minded here? I read the Bible as a group of fables and stories to teach us, so discussing lust may not be a good topic for such a wanton woman as the Bessy, eh? Little do you know that I am just a regular mom and granny with a big brood who happens to have lustful thoughts on occasion. Am I so wrong? The flesh is not sin and lust but a lovely god given vehicle for showing love through our sexuality. Sex is not a sin, but a beautiful human gift.

I am woman, hear me lust. I just don’t see the point of this holier -than- thou guilt trip given to us by our parents and/or parishes and temples making us afraid to embrace our humanness. Be moral, be monogomous,
but be human in the presence of your God… He would want nothing less.

=D> =D>

Duder · July 12, 2006, 9:23pm

How can you be so certain?

Astral · July 12, 2006, 9:24pm

How can one be certain of anything?

Take that right at face value.

Kriswest · July 12, 2006, 9:27pm

I am certain an omnipotent being would never resort to blackmail, threats or bribery, It wouldn’t have to nor would it, if it cared for the children it created.

Dan1 · July 12, 2006, 9:47pm

Ooops. Sorry dear, I was just low on sleep and a bit riled.
No harm done.

I’ll source this one again:

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.'' There is no Law beyond Do what thou wilt.‘’
``The word of the Law is Velhma.‘’
Velhma–Thelema–means Will.

The Key to this Message is this word-Will. The first obvious meaning of this Law is confirmed by antithesis; ``The word of Sin is Restriction.‘’

Again: ``Thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.‘’

Take this carefully; it seems to imply a theory that if every man and every woman did his and her will–the true will–there would be no clashing. ``Every man and every woman is a star,‘’ and each star moves in an appointed path without interference. There is plenty of room for all; it is only disorder that creates confusion.

From these considerations it should be clear that Do what thou wilt'' does not mean Do what you like.‘’ It is the apotheosis of Freedom; but it is also the strictest possible bond.

Do what thou wilt–then do nothing else. Let nothing deflect thee from that austere and holy task. Liberty is absolute to do thy will; but seek to do any other thing whatever, and instantly obstacles must arise. Every act that is not in definite course of that one orbit is erratic, an hindrance. Will must not be two, but one.

Note further that this will is not only to be pure, that is, single, as explained above, but also unassuaged of purpose.'' This strange phrase must give us pause. It may mean that any purpose in the will would damp it; clearly the lust of result’’ is a thing from which it must be delivered.

But the phrase may also be interpreted as if it read ``with purpose unassuaged’'–i.e., with tireless energy. The conception is, therefore, of an eternal motion, infinite and unalterable. It is Nirvana, only dynamic instead of static–and this comes to the same thing in the end.

The obvious practical task of the magician is then to discover what his will really is, so that he may do it in this manner, and he can best accomplish this by the practices of Liber Thisarb (see Equinox I(7), p. 105) or such others as may from one time to another be appointed.

Thou must (1) Find out what is thy Will. (2) Do that Will with a) one-pointedness, (b) detachment, (c) peace.

Then, and then only, art thou in harmony with the Movement of Things, thy will part of, and therefore equal to, the Will of God. And since the will is but the dynamic aspect of the self, and since two different selves could not possess identical wills; then, if thy will be God’s will, Thou art That.

There is but one other word to explain. Elsewhere it is written-- surely for our great comfort–``Love is the law, love under will.‘’

This is to be taken as meaning that while Will is the Law, the nature of that Will is Love. But this Love is as it were a by-product of that Will; it does not contradict or supersede that Will; and if apparent contradiction should arise in any crisis, it is the Will that will guide us aright. Lo, while in The Book of the Law is much of Love, there is no word of Sentimentality. Hate itself is almost like Love! ``As brothers fight ye!‘’ All the manly races of the world understand this. The Love of Liber Legis is always bold, virile, even orgiastic. There is delicacy, but it is the delicacy of strength. Mighty and terrible and glorious as it is, however, it is but the pennon upon the sacred lance of Will, the damascened inscription upon the swords of the Knight-monks of Thelema.

Love is the law, love under will.

sacred-texts.com/oto/lib2.htm ^^^^

Repression is the only sin. Whether one represses his own true-will – or if one represses the true-will of another, this is “sin”.

Duder · July 12, 2006, 9:50pm

The way you describe God, and what you KNOW is like you’ve been there. I’m not sure of anything, but I am more sure of what I can sense, rather than God and his 12 classes of archangels, and his purpose for us, and our purpose…how does it not sound like a load of BS? What drug, specifically, do you have to be on, to take all that literally and think “Yea, that makes sense.”

Dan1 · July 12, 2006, 9:53pm

Astral:

Do you mean knowing the truth in the “I know where I left my cigarettes” truth ? or the truth in the spiritual sense? You do know the truth for you just as I know the truth for me.

You are absolutely right. (for you.) and I fully respect your beliefs just as I hope you will allow me to have mine. My only gripe with your frame of mind is one of single mindedness forgetting that most of the world isn’t Christian and they, too, feel that they “know.”

It puzzles me that you are so sure. Have you had an out-of-body experience ,a vision, or near death experience. Is it just a feeling? Doesn’t it scare you that your single mindedness could translate to another---- like a terrorist who feels that his religion makes him feel the need to be a human missile killing thousands of people because HE is so sure that it is the right thing to do? Bottom line: he knows the truth too. Hmmm.

As regards Christian godforms:

God…
Did you create the universe? No.
Did you usedto be human? Yes.
Are you and yours a new metaphysical species which evolved spiritually, but were once human? Yes.
Do you wish to bring other humans up to your state of advancement? Yes.

He feels mercy towards his anscenstors, and offers help to those who are seeking to get nearer to him. For a name unlike the names of others, I dub thee Acorigma, because a name simply reminds a man of what is.
A service to God is an act which brings the self closer to the true-will. What was lower wishes to become higher, but a flower needs its own direction, as it moves towards the light. In full bloom, that flower then relfects the light which it has focused itself upon.

~

That’s my best bet about objectively describing the angelic race.

A human ghost, sporting a pair of metaphysical wings, pleodimensionality and a high power-level.

Bessy · July 12, 2006, 9:58pm

Kriswest

God, you are my kinda girl. Bring on the jalapenos and curry, too. I will smuggle a gigantic ice chest. We are so bad… and two decent mommies, no less. LMAO!!!

Dan1 · July 12, 2006, 9:58pm

Many millions of years ago – some of the spirits of the dead – (which are live-energies & conscious algorythms which exist upon energy independently of the body) evolved after death – for millions of years. Eventually they became a new species of superhuman spirit, yet were originally human. They also formed organizations & orders. They work as a group, with the most advanced/powerful one of them at the top of command.

If you witnessed a miracle of some sort, you may have materialist reason to believe, but I don’t see that happening.

Bessy · July 12, 2006, 10:07pm

Dan,

Do you watch Star Trek? :D/

Kriswest · July 12, 2006, 10:21pm

Ditto on that

Yumm , I will bring the tortilla chips and cheese dip, the dip will stay nice and gooey there.

We are decent mommies because, we know love and right from wrong. Love transcends evil and evil rests with threats and dire punishment for the innocent.

Nothing That loves or can bequeath the emotion of love would ever be cruel and knowingly with self righteous ego punish unjustly, it makes no sense.

Do you think I will need tanning oil? I have such fair skin I wouldn’t want to get burned.

Ain’t it good to be soo bad! LMAO

Dan1 · July 12, 2006, 11:11pm

Most metaphysical beings or spirits can travel instantly.

For this reason, persons tending towards strife bring themselves instantly to hell when they enter into the metaphysical, but they can also bring themselves instantly out once they learn how to. People who like to fight, for example, will find many enemies in the metaphysical, as their will instantly guides them towards the target or craving. Souls who were inslaved to pleasures will instantly find themselves within the objects and emotional forces that they wanted most, and they may become completely obsessed [depending on the situation].

Not much, why?

Someone can love anything, no matter what it is.
“Love” is not a cure-all.

Astral · July 12, 2006, 11:40pm

Been there? Why yes I have. Seek out God and you can BE THERE as well.

About the classes of angels? None of that has been expounded upon anywhere in the bible to my knowledge or given to me by wisdom. Most of that that is just people running chops. I wouldnt believe any of it myself. Most references about such things are made in similie in the bible and can hardly be taken as a literal fact.

I share much of your apprehension on this as well.

Kriswest · July 13, 2006, 12:54am

Dan~:

Bessy:

Kriswest

Hell kind of sounds all warm and cozy with a better sort of people in comparison. Bring on the beer!

God, you are my kinda girl. Bring on the jalapenos and curry, too. I will smuggle a gigantic ice chest too. We are so bad… and two decent mommies, no less. LMAO!!!

Most metaphysical beings or spirits can travel instantly.

For this reason, persons tending towards strife bring themselves instantly to hell when they enter into the metaphysical, but they can also bring themselves instantly out once they learn how to. People who like to fight, for example, will find many enemies in the metaphysical, as their will instantly guides them towards the target or craving. Souls who were inslaved to pleasures will instantly find themselves within the objects and emotional forces that they wanted most, and they may become completely obsessed [depending on the situation].

Dan,

Do you watch Star Trek?

Not much, why?

Love transcends evil and evil rests with threats and dire punishment for the innocent. Nothing That loves or can bequeath the emotion of love would ever be cruel and knowingly with self righteous ego punish unjustly, it makes no sense.

Someone can love anything, no matter what it is.
“Love” is not a cure-all.

No , Dan there is a difference You can not love an object, you cannot love the weather, you cannot love food,You can love your enemy, you can love a fellow creature, You cannot love evil nor can you love good. Love is not supposed to be a cure-all it is supposed to be an aid. Love is often mistaken for lust, because, lust and love carry much the same types of passions. But love is never possesive, nor is it ego, nor is it controlling, nor is it fear, nor grief. Love can only be given, never taken and never used against any you love. Love is not romance it is not fairytales. Love is the best thing to ever happen to you and it is the worst and hardest. When you truly love, Dan, you will know I speak from experience not from fantasy.

Any creature that bequeaths such a wonderful tool to its children Could never unjustly punish nor threaten nor bribe, nor hurt, for it would know.