Our minds can never capture God in a concept.

It obviously didn’t make the “hit parade” at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. I find it curious … the absence of any definitive proof of how the books of the NT were decided upon … and what ‘Jesus story’ books were to be burned.

[b][i]The main source of the idea that the Bible was created at the Council of Nicea seems to be Voltaire, who popularised a story that the canon was determined by placing all the competing books on an altar the Council and then keeping the ones that didn’t fall off. The original source of this story is the Vetus Synodicon, a pseudo-historical account of early Church councils from AD 887:[69]

The canonical and apocryphal books it distinguished in the following manner: in the house of God the books were placed down by the holy altar; then the council asked the Lord in prayer that the inspired works be found on top and–as in fact happened–the spurious on the bottom. (Vetus Synodicon, 35)[/i][/b]

The fact that it didn’t make the “hit parade” only obfuscates the “truth” … doesn’t elucidate “truth”.

The community of authors who wanted to “control the story” likely had their own agenda … what is often referred to as a “hidden agenda”.

Link me to The Book of Mary then closest to the original format so I can tell you why Jesus wasn’t a feminist.

Just out of curiosity, who are the people saying that we can in fact capture God in a concept such that this thread needs to refute them? Every monotheistic faith I am aware of teaches first and foremost that God is basically unknowable and unapproachable, and the only reason religion can exist is because God chose to reveal a portion of Himself. The premise of the thread is:

“Begs the question … why can’t we learn this? … why have so many people all over the world spoken about the unknowable for thousands of years … and continue to yet today?”

It just occurred to me that this is a colossal strawman. No, people have absolutely not been claiming to to know the unknowable for thousands of years. I guess there might be a couple Protestant splinter groups or theistic philosophers who imagine they can describe God completely with a string of concepts, but that is not at all a description of religious practice.

This Gospel of Mary thing is bullshit too. Complain all you want about the canonization, there are dozens of apocryphal Gospels out there- you can find one that says anything you like if you want to bad enough. Cherry picking a Gospel that says something to support feminism (while ignoring the Gospel of Thomas that is blatantly misogynistic) makes no sense. Giving no reason to trust the Gospel of Mary other than ‘because I don’t like the canonization process’ makes no sense. Reasons we should reject it: We have no idea who wrote it, people around when it was written rejected it, and the oldest copy we have is from 500 years after the events in question.

I really am a glutton for punishment … and really stupid to boot!

You ask me to give you a gun … and ammunition … so you can shoot me with it. Hmmm!

St Louis de Montfort’s book “True Devotion to Mary” points to the feminine side of Jesus … I think. He uses the words “reprobate” and “predestined” to denote Yang and Yin.

Some significant ‘feminism’ in the OT …

Reminds me of my experience in Jerusalem in 1998 or so … where I woke up in the middle of the night and felt compelled to go out for a walk … walked out of the Old City to a coffee shop I knew existed. While drinking my coffee I found a copy of an English newspaper with an article titled …”The Torah of Guela By HaRav David Bar Ha”. I kept the copy of this article … I think I still have it … it was one of those moments and one of those articles that seemed so important to my spiritual journey … the feeling remains. Here is a short exerpt …
The Tora describes these events(story of Rebecca Isaac Jacob and Esau) in no less than 51 verses (Bereshith 27:1 - 28:5). many more than the Tora utilizes when speaking of Shabath!
It is with regard to such lengthy ‘narrative’ sections of the Tora that the Zohar states: “Woe to the man who says that this Tora wishes to relate simple stories … rather (the fact .is) that everything in the Tora is 1ofty and contains great secrets
David Ba Har concludes his article as follows:
Great events in our national existence cannot be understood and decisions that will shape our people’s future cannot be made in the ‘Yishaq(Isaac) mode.’ In order to perceive the direction and orientation that must be assumed, to come to terms with the steps that must be taken, and to possess the self-assuredness simply to know when something is right, and to be therefore willing to lead the way -for all these, something more than rigid loyalty to tradition is required.
Our Geula, which was prophetically mapped out for us long ago, is the. ‘What.’ We must supply the ‘How.’
Rav David Bar Hayim is the head of the Makhon Ben Yishai Institute for Tora Research in Jerusalem

Finally … this URL looks OK … maryofmagdala.com/GMary_Text/gmary_text.html

… and this is irrefutable truth?

How then, are we to duel? You have the loaded gun (the book of mary) but I have not it. What terms would you duel without a fair and even playing field?

throughout history people had questions concerning their existence and their world … questions need answers … the “God” story(s) seems to be a logical output.

I should acknowledge Zinnat’s help … he introduced Saint Kabir.

I did a bit of reading and I really like these 3 quotes attributed to Saint Kabir

“Keep the slanderer near you, build him a hut in your courtyard —
For, without soap or water, he will scrub your character clean.”

— Kabir, Sākhī 23.4,

"Saints I see the world is mad.
If I tell the truth they rush to beat me,
if I lie they trust me.

— Kabir, Sabda 4

Reading book after book the whole world died,
and none ever became learned !

— Kabir Granthavali, XXXIII.3

Genesis 27 is the chapter where Rebekah advises Jacob on how to trick a blind old man in order to steal Esau’s birthright.

That’s feminism? Must be one of those ‘hidden meanings’.

Please try to follow the plot of the conversation. The point is that the religions you are criticizing are NOT claiming that God is comprehensible. The entire purpose and significance if divine revelation is that it’s required because humans can’t figure things out on their own. It doesn’t matter if you see it as an ‘irrefutable truth’ or not, the point is that you’re attacking a strawman when you say religions have been claiming that man can understand God for thousands of years. They haven’t and they don’t.

Jewish scholars certainly seem to think there’s plenty of “hidden meanings” in the story … here is the entire article I found in a newspaper in Jerusalem around 1998.

The Tora of Guela By HaRav David Bar Hayim
“And it came to pass that Yishaq was old, and his eyes were too dim to see…” (Bereshith27:1). Thus begins the story we recently read in this weekly portion of the Tora, relating how Yishaq came to bestow his blessings upon Ya’aqov, rather that Esauw. the first-born. The Tora describes these events in no less than 51 verses (Bereshith 27:1 - 28:5). many more than the Tora utilizes when speaking of Shabath!
It is with regard to such lengthy ‘narrative’ sections of the Tora that the Zohar states: “Woe to the man who says that this Tora wishes to relate simple stories … rather (the fact is) that everything in the Tora is 1ofty and contains great secrets …
“ … and just as His Angels, [who are of spiritual, and not physical essence), when they descend to Earth take on the ‘garments’ of this world (a physical form): and were this not so they [the Angels] could not exist in this world and the world could not bear them … how much more so the Tora itself – when it descends to this world, were it not to take on the ‘garments’ of the world, the world could not bear it. Thus, the stories of the Tora are the Tora’s ‘garments’ …“ (Zohar III 152a)
The Zohar repeats this statement with specific references to the tale of Yishaq’s blessing: “All the works of the Holy One Blessed Be He are profoundly true; all things in the Tora are rooted in the mysteries of the Higher Worlds” (Zohar I, 141b). The meaning is clear: the Tora does not spend 51 verses in order to tell us ‘a good story.’ Hashem is trying to tell us something.
“And it came to pass that Yishaq was old, and his eyes were too dim to see, he called Esauw his elder son …” Several questions occur to us upon reading these words, and the story that follows:
Would it not have been sufficient to simply inform us that Yishaq blessed Ya’aqov, despite not being the first born, due to his superior moral behavior(as Hazal are so intent on pointing out)? Would any of us have challenged such a decision?
Why emphasize that Yishaq called Esauw “his elder son”? The fact that Esauw was the first-born is plainly stated at the beginning of the weekly reading.
Why did Yishaq insist on passing his mantle to Esauw? Could he truly not perceive that Ya’aqov was more worthy?
On what basis did our matriarch Rivqa decide that she could devise a plan to grant Ya’aqov the blessings? What did she know that Yishaq did not?
We must begin by defining the attributes of our forefathers. Avraham is known as a man of great kindness and giving: the story of seeing the three travellers in the desert and inviting them into his home is famous (Bereshith 18:1). Our Sages further amplify this picture of Avraham in many Midrashim. Even when the situation required making an unpleasant decision, such as distancing Yishmael from Yishaq and removing him from the family, Avraham faltered: “And this thing was very grievous in Avraham’s eyes(Bereshith 21:11). It ran against the grain of Avraham’s love of compassion.
Yishaq is a more stern and severe figure. When Ya’aqov rebukes Lavan, he refers to his forefathers in an unusual fashion: “Were it not that the G-d of my father, the g-d of Avraham, and the fear of Yishaq, had been with me, you would have surely sent me away empty handed” (Bereshith 31:42)
Ya’aqov is the confluence of these two tendencies — he is the perfectly balanced Jew: ‘The choicest of the Forefathers” (Bereshith Raba 76:1). Or in the words of the prophet Mikha: “You shall show Truth (perfection) to Ya’aqov, Loyal Love (compassion) to Avraham” (Mikha 7:20).
The Zohar sums it up thus:“Ya’aqov completes and perfects everything … as it says ‘Loyal Love (compassion) to Avraham’ — this is Avraham’s portion because he showed compassion to people … Yishaq is strict justice (I. 96aJ. “Hesed (Compassion), Pahad (Fear), Emeth (Truth) — these are the attributes of the three Forefathers” (III, 217a).
Our holy forefather Yishaq, therefore, is driven by a strict sense of justice and a rigid loyalty to tradition. It is for this reason that he felt that he must bestow his blessings, and the leadership of the nascent Jewish people, to Esauw: this was the tradition he had received from his father. This was the Law: the blessing belongs to the first-born. Therefore “He called Esauw his elder son …” He was, in fact, aware of Esauw’s shortcomings. This is why he requested that Esauw bring him his favorite dish: ‘that my soul may bless you before I die” (27:4). He needed to be in a positive frame of mind toward Esauw, in order to bless him with a happy and full heart (only in this fashion, he knew, would his blessing be truly effective). As for the future, be felt that Hashem could cause Esauw to repent and return to Him if He so chose. He felt, at any rate, that this was out of his hands (see Mei HaShiloah, Toldoth).
Rivqa, however, knew that radical and rapid action was required to avert disaster (see Rambam 27:7). “Upon me be your curse, my son; but obey my voice. “ (27:13) she said upon seeing Ya’aqov’s reluctance to go along with her plot.
How did she know that this was the right thing to do? We find two explanations in our classic sources. Onqelos, in his Aramaic translation, states: “It was said to me by way of prophecy that no curse shall befall you.” The Rashbam points out: “She relied [in so doing] on that which had been said to her by Hashem ‘and the elder shall serve the younger.”’
In truth, these two explanations are one. The Rashbam and Onqelos are simply reminding us of what we read at the beginning of the parasha when Rivqa, distressed by an unusual pregnancy, “went to inquire of the Lord” (This very fact indicates Rivqa’s holy intuition, the first step to prophecy; many women would simply have put it down to ‘bad luck’). “And the Lord said to her: Two nations are in thy womb and the elder shall serve the younger” (25:22-23).
Note the wording ‘and the; Lord said to her.’ In general, woman have greater powers of intuition and insight than men: “Hashem placed greater insight in women than men” (T.B. Nida 45b) (The expression ‘a woman’s intuition’ has a basis in reality!) That which was revealed to Rivka was unclear to Yishaq: “his eyes were too dim to see …“ She did not share this knowledge with him. “‘And the Darkness He called Night’ — this refers to Yishaq (Zohar I, 142a). He was in the dark.
Rivqa. armed with this knowledge, knew that Ya’aqov must receive the blessing. The question was ‘How?. Hashem had not revealed the answer to this question. Yet Rivqa does not falter. If Hashem, in His Wisdom, had informed her of what must be, it was surely her responsibility to make it happen. She therefore hatches a plan and speaks to Ya’aqov: “obey my voice …” She is not only sure in the knowledge of what Hashem revealed to her; she is equally certain as to what must be done. The former is prophecy; the latter holy intuition, Ruah Haqodesh.
“Woe to the man who says that this Tora wishes to relate simple stories.” We must internalize the profound truth hidden herein.
Great events in our national existence cannot be understood and decisions that will shape our people’s future cannot be made in the ‘Yishaq mode.’ In order to perceive the direction and orientation that must be assumed, to come to terms with the steps that must be taken, and to possess the self-assuredness simply to know when something is right, and to be therefore willing to lead the way -for all these, something more than rigid loyalty to tradition is required.
Our Geula, which was prophetically mapped out for us long ago, is the. ‘What.’ We must supply the ‘How.’
Rav David Bar Hayim is the head of the Makhon Ben Yishai Institute for Tora Research in Jerusalem

Dear Pilgrim. Your focus on a detail here and ignore the main point Uccisore is making, which is a response to the main points you are making in the thread going back to the OP.

IOW he is respecting the core theme of your thread in his post. When you ignore his main point - which is that Western religions DO acknowledge something you seem to think they do not or that Westerners do not - and focus on his wording here which raises another issue, you are disrespecting your own thread and his post.

He sees your topic, responds to that topic, right on the main point, and your response is as if this does not matter, what matters is the certainty with which he makes one point. It is fine to point out this certainty and take issue with it, but when you then ignore the main point he makes which is highly relevent to the thread, it is disrespectful.

Perhaps he is incorrect. Perhaps Western religions do say that we can capture God in a concept. Perhaps he is correct or partially correct. But since it goes right to the heart of your position it makes sense and is polite to address this point.

Moreno … I was taught that respect is earned. A metaphor I heard many years ago helps me to understand the process. When two strangers meet, each one pours a little bit of water in a glass … the water symbolizes respect/trust. Every subsequent interaction between these two people results in either adding or pouring out some water. Should the glass become empty it is very difficult to start the process over again. IOW one never gets a second chance to make a good first impression.

I respect you … from the beginning … your first response to something I posted … your posts were thoughtful and respectful.

Such was not the case with Uccisore.

About the initial post … the OP.

Many years ago an acquaintance explained the term “free fall writing” to me. As I understand it … a writer in “free fall” attempts to get thoughts out of his head onto paper or on to the keyboard without any censoring/filtering. Most of my posts are written in “free fall” style.

You pointed out one of the downsides of such a writing style … the time you made it clear that my post had “implications” that I may not even be conscious of … yet the telling is still there. On reflection, I accepted that you were absolutely correct … I was not conscious of the implications … in that particular post … or any of my posts for that matter.

For me, the upside … sharing unadulterated thoughts outweighs the confusion/slandering that may result from implications I was not conscious of while writing the post.

I welcome any requests for clarification on the contents of my posts … I’m even OK with the slandering … some of the time :slight_smile:

I’ve read the Gospel of Mary fragments. They are as Pilgrim describes. According to Wikipedia they were written in Greek probably in the second century CE. This is not 500 CE, which is the dating of some copies. That these fragments are lumped with the so-called Gnostic Gospels (See Elaine Pagels on these), does not suggest that they are unworthy of being part of the NT canon.
For all I know, Mary might have been Jesus’ wife. So Jesus shared secrets with her, which He did not tell his disciples.
But all this is a step away from the OP. God is knowable by a god experience, which many saints and seers claim to have had.
In the case of experience one can only tell another how it was arrived at. It is up to the other to practice the disciplines or paths that lead to the God experience. The path is not a name, it is a way. We live verbs, but crave nouns.

OK, so your example of feminism is pretty clearly NOT in the OT, it’s in the Zohar. And not even the Zohar, but one guy’s commentary on the Zohar.

That’s a pretty big difference.

It doesn’t suggest that they ARE, either. So far the only reason either of you has given to consider them reliable is “Just because they aren’t canon doesn’t mean we shouldn’t consider them reliable!”. That’s not actually a reason. That’s a sentiment against the canonization process.

Yup.

You must be joking me. Obviously the person in the dream is conscious! When they said “dream beings” it implied individual beings inside of the dream. Obviously the first person in the dream is conscious!! What a terrible support.

I’m afraid, pilgram, that I have to disagree with the title.

In concept:
A god ≡ who/whatever incontestably determines what can or cannot be concerning a particular situation.
The God ≡ Who/Whatever incontestably determines All that can or cannot be concerning any situation.

James … disagreement is often the ‘spice’ that turns tasteless dialogue into appetizing dialogue … no?

Chakra Superstar in describing Osho in another OP wrote … Osho’s an iconoclast, a subversive. He said his purpose is to disturb rather than console or reinforce stereotypical thought patterns because by disturbing he helps break people out of their programming and gets them to question why they have the beliefs they have.

My purpose has never been to disturb … yet … it appears … disturb I have :slight_smile:

About sticking to the OP … is this an unwritten rule in ILP?

If so, seems to me it would serve to make OP’s sterile … imprisoned within the ‘box’ of the OP title/initial post. Uninteresting OPs fade fast … OPs that meander seem to have longer lifespans … no?

Some OPs take on a life of their own after a while … those who don’t particularly like the direction an OP is headed can simply withdraw … IOW stop reading the posts.

Reminds me of a story … not a true story … yet … for me … a story with a worthwhile message.

One day a dog spotted a rabbit running across the field. The dog responded as dogs do … he started chasing after the rabbit … barking loudly. In a short time another dog heard the barking. This second dog did as dogs do … he joined in the chase … thereby increasing the volume of the barking and yelping. Soon more dogs joined in … became a sizable pack of dogs.

After a while one of the dogs near the back of the pack asked himself … what are we chasing? … why am I running with this pack? This particular dog dropped out and went along his own merry way. In a short time all but the original dog left the chase. Why did the original dog keep running and barking? Because only the original dog saw the rabbit.

It doesn’t suggest that they ARE, either. So far the only reason either of you has given to consider them reliable is “Just because they aren’t canon doesn’t mean we shouldn’t consider them reliable!”. That’s not actually a reason. That’s a sentiment against the canonization process.

[quote]
Uccisore … we have copious literature supporting the thoughts/concepts of philosophers … perhaps there is a correlation between the significance of any given philosopher … as in contribution to humanity … and the volume of literature supporting it.

Seems to me the NT was expected/willed to have a substantial impact on humanity … where is the copious literature supporting how/why the NT was collated as it was?