I’m not preventing anything. It was Jesus himself who said he did not come to bring peace but a sword. It is Jesus we see with his robe dripped in blood. I’m merely pointing out that the bible does not fit nicely into your post-modern dream land. Christianity has always been a religion of attack and defense. Jesus told us that we would have “great trouble” in the world and that the world would always be against his followers. Preaching peace and tranqility was not his purpose even if it is yours.
Hi Ned,
carry on ignoring every other indication that you might be very one-sided and you will get absolutely nowhere. Sad really …
Shalom
I also think there is a delusional state which many christians encounter through studying the Bible , a misinterpretation of christs words leads to an unrealistic view about the world . One view is that violence is always wrong , and that we should turn the other cheek all the time .
In this way , they dont realize they are actually hindering the coming of Gods kingdom if there is one . They study only one aspect of christs life , and conveniently forget the rest . I think thats why traditional christianity has given way to other , seemingly more liberal forms . But I also think this new age approach from many christian schools and churches is bunk .
It all amounts to the same thing , from whatever group you hear from , accept christ , he loves you , wont judge you , then when you get in the door , 3 months later they make you feel bad about the person you are . And start battering on about Hell , how inadequate you are without “christ” .
The worrying thing is that “christ” for many people is actually just an extension of their own private desires , their perversions and their egotism . Hence the reason so many ministers , preachers , priests & so called mystics cant be trusted
Om
Hi DoL,
Sounds fascinating - what has it got to do with my subject?
Shalom
I find a lot of food for thought in the following exchange between Bob and Dan
Dan wrote:
Bob wrote
Dan wrote:
Does humiliation equate with humility? Not as I understand them. Humility in the spiritual sense is experienced in the essence of a human being. Humiliation is a reaction from the pride of our acquired personality or the role we play in life. Unfortunately humiliation plays a large role in secular religion and IMO has done far more harm than good. But the inner experience of humility in contrast is a real perception of relative human quality which allows us to become inwardly open and it is essential to weaken the power of the unreal in us. Through the words humility and humiliation appear to be related, in reality they are expressions of aspects of our collective inner nature that are unrelated. We don’t notice this because we normally assume that we are our personality rather than that we have acquired a personality so do not recognize its dominance of our lives and potential. From this perspective the words are related.
Dan doesn’t seek self knowledge since it may be discouraging. Yet some people view self knowledge as a means for the experience of truth and wisdom. It is seen as encouraging to become open to such knowledge.
But this is the same situation. What becomes discouraged: our personalities or us? Can we tell the difference? Yet for those like me that define the essential purpose of religion as helping our essential selves grow to become what it can, we must begin to tell the difference.
It think is you who are ignoring your one-sided thought processes. I make no bones about the fact that I believe 100% in the bible and Orthodox Christian theology. Obviously this makes me one-sided, but I never claimed to be otherwise.
The irony is that you claim to be open-minded but are anything but. You preach this religion you made up yourself of nothing but peace. It’s as one-sided as any other religious thought process and closed to any alternatives.
And calling someone’s viewpoint “sad” is disingenuous. It’s a subtle form of attack that makes you sound caring, deliberately projecting an image of love while taking a swipe at the same time. In contrast I find your viewpoint just plain dumb. People are evil by nature and will not start loving and being in “shalom” with each other just by talking about it and trying harder. A brief review of world history should teach you that.
Couldn’t agree more. The gospel has been preverted so that it becomes a consumer product appealing to self-interest. That is why we need to see a balanced portrayal of Jesus and not simply the nice guy who wants to be our best friend. Although there is some truth in that image, Jesus is also the judge of the universe who will condemn many to eternal suffering, and slaughter the armies of the earth. We should both love and fear him. But people like Bob want the “gentle Jesus meek and mild” without acknowledging the “king of kings”. Unfortunately this distortion is becoming more popular both inside and outside the church. the only correction is to tell people to read their bible and let this inform their image of Jesus, rather than the popular alrenative of creating a nice image of Jesus in their head and go looking for bible passages to support it.
Hi Bob,
I’ve been sort of following along here and it is obvious that understanding is being connected to literalism again. There simply is no way to get past that wall. It is true that Jesus didn’t come to bring peace to the world, but to bring peace to the individual heart. To step away from the wordly concerns of man is unsettling to those whose concerns are of the world, and indeed, sets man against man. It is the battle of letter of law versus spirit of law.
Once again, the message Jesus brought is buried in a flurry of biblical quotes justifying whatever position one chooses along with the attendant denunciation of anyone who disagrees because they REALLY know. I suspect that the gospel hymn “Onward Christian Soldiers” is their favorite song…
Stay the course. A few are capable, we just don’t know who, and at what moment.
Did you just make that up or do you have a particular quote from Jesus to substantiate it? In my copy of the bible Jesus said quite plainly what he came to bring. He said…
Matthew 10:34 I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
Ned,
And that is a difference in approach. You read the words literally, and I read the word metaphorically. I suspect this is true in whatever we read, not just religious issues. We certainly come to different conclusions.
There is nothing wrong with either approach until one of us tries to tell the other “how it is”. Determinism isn’t a very useful course in open discussion.
The problem with your approach is that it means nothing. It makes your spiritual searching as meaningful as scratching your backside. Since you are free to interpret any spiritual writing exactly as you please, you can either choose to take it’s plain meaning or twist it 180 degrees till it suits your purpose. But to treat any spiritual writing like this is identical to just making your own religion up from scratch. Everything becomes meaningless and you end up following your own limited ideas, which unsurprisingly simply end up exalting your own ego.
So I disagree. Your approach is not simply “different”, it is wrong.
And that is always the literalist’s answer. I know. I was born and raised in it. Perhaps if you could show me the unified christian interpretation of the bible I might feel compelled to listen, but you can’t, and that’s the point. You’re interpretation is countered by a multitude of different interpretations inside your own christian community. And in those different interpretations, you are judged just as wrong as you would judge me.
So I’ll feel quite comfortable interpreting biblical passage as I choose. That is exactly and precisely what you and millions of your fellow christians are doing this very moment. Each and every christian has the one and only truth - all one million of those truths.
So be as confident in your beliefs as you wish, but reserve your judgement for your fellow christians who are not only wrong, but pretending they’re right. You can judge us heathens after you clean up your own ranks.
Anyone who accepts the early creeds of the church is my brother or sister. We might argue about stuff but they are a vital part of my family. And I’m not judging you as a person by telling you that you are going in the wrong direction. Don’t take everything so personally! You may well be a better man than me. But that’s not going to help you much if you don’t make peace with the judge of the universe.
A life consistantly lived is a religion written in act and deed, sprung from a relationship with an unconscious and unique conceptualization of God/Godself.
Inwardly, each is as true as its fellow; outwardly, each is judged by its physical manifestation in deed. Truth is linked to success, both on an ideological and materialistic level.
Why is Catholicism one of the most ornate and ostentatious religious sects…? Because it was always going to be.
Mainstream religion is an inevitable outcome of cohesive group behaviour. Pray together, stay together, vanquish thine enemy together.
