Iron Dog,
I’m not trying to be offensive here but why the hell can’t you just answer his question and quit avoiding it by posting 4 statements saying “What questions are you referring to?” Just scroll up with that Mouse to your right/left and READ. Then post a relative answer not just a personal indication of your own belief, come up with factual data before posting and quit beating around the bush.
Lasko, no offense taken. So I Hope you wont take any either now as I ask you to redirect yourself to " gods music " thread and read what I have said to Satanical. Because Same applies to you, and anyone else like you. No hard feelings.
Get over yourself little boy… Your only showing me you have no common sense nor any kind of knowledge on any subject in which you speak.
You avoid questions, you never present an argument you only say, “I agree, I disagree, Get out of here, or my favorite, “You don’t believe what I believe””… Your a sad excuse for a philosopher if thats even what you can be called.
Stop harrasing people. Get a life.
In Laskos defense, ID, if you do actually know what you are talking about you hide it very well. I can’t recall you ever providing an argument for any of your diatribes.
Hi Aspacia,
I’ll clarify some of my statements. My question at the beginning was rhetorical. I think we need to be critical when reading history but also willing to see the grains of truth wrapped inside the various layers of fiction. We agree on this. Also, at some level I’m willing to look into fiction as a type of truth-telling (but the two areas-- history and fiction–should be navigated carefully and as distinctly as possible). And each valued for what it offers.
Additionally, I should probably clarify about the “illiterate” reference. I did NOT mean all Jews. I tend to subscribe to the scholar John Crossan’s description of historical Jesus.
Crossan writes:
Of course, Crossan is making an argument here, so there is room for dispute. But I find it likely that Jesus was unable to read/write. This is my interpretation, not a statement without exceptions, and it definitely does not apply to the entire culture. Finally, with the second question, I was trying to get our personal biases in the open here. I appreciate that you stated your point of view. Examining our biases is the only way to have a real conversation about these things. My own bias is that I find the historical Jesus intriguing and exemplary (without any doctrine), and so I tend to weigh the evidence in favor of Jesus as a revolutionary but fully human figure. Perhaps this helped explain a little more what I was getting at in my previous post.
[.quote] Hi right back at ya. Hum, I will have to check regarding Jews being illiterate at the time of Jesus. I was under the impression, and I do err, that Jews during this time were generally literate, especially in the Torah and Talmud laws.
Thanks for the Crossan article. I appreciate insights.
Hi Noos,
I checked with Ask Moses.com and the reply was that there is no real way to estimate that literacy rate among Jews at this time, but they were probably more educated that their neighbors.
Just some research. I was wrong in that I believed they had a high literacy rate as no one really knows.
Also, thanks for resustitating my memory regarding the other sources who mentioned Jesus, he actually did live.
Can you expand on this? What sources?
It is beyond a well known fact that ZERO evidence for JEsus Christ exists dated from the time he actually lived. What you have are 4 biased religious documents written by 2nd and 3rd hand guys, who were NOT MAthew, Mark, Luke and John. Those where names given to the books after the fact. The “Gospels” are dated anywhere from 45-125+ years after the supposed events.
The “secular mentionings”, were made even later, the most famous of which, Josephus, is a proven forgery to all parties. Some conservatives argue for PARTIAL authenticity, which in itself is a condemnation of Christians during that day as at LEAST partial liars.
There is not anything out there about a “vote” that Jesus made. Such evidence does not exist. If JEsus was really the “only way” youd think God would have set it up so that the area was little teeming with evidence of his existance FROM the time he actually lived.
In one of the gospels DEAD SAINTS rise out of their graves after the crucifiction event and are “seen by many”. Think about this now. Long dead people climbed out of their graves in a scene straight out of a bad horro flick and walked about town yet not a single person in the area decided that that event was remarkable enough to write down. Only around 80 years later did some one finally decide to jot that down.
But nobody reasonable ever said Jesus was the only way. I dont think he is but still believe he existed.
What do you say to the prophecy of a man 500 years before christs birth ?
Would,nt you say at least there seems to be a connection between Isaiahs prophecy and christ? It does seem to be describing someone in particular , and too intimately to be a fluke. Yet this man lived so many years before christ.
Bare in mind that these scriptures come from the dead sea scrolls. Scripture proven to have been written at a specific time. Therby ruling out any possibility that the church could have fabricated lies.
The way prepared by John the Baptist:
Isa.40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Hair of the Throne of David:
- Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)
Silent to accusations:
Isaiah 53:7… Matthew 26:62-63, Mark.15:4-5.
- Isa.53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (Ps.38:13-14)
Spat at and struck:
Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
Vicarious Sacrifice:
- Isa.53:4-5 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Is. 53:6, 12)
Hated without reason:
Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5… John.15:24-25.
- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)
- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: “They hated me without reason.”
Those are very vague at best and absolutely do not apply to JEsus at worst. ITs only because of christian contortion that they are applied in that manner.
The Jews, you know the folks who wrote the OT, do not believe that Christ fulfilled the Messiah prophecy. In fact he obviously did not if you look at what the OT says about what the Messiah would/is supposedly going to do. HE was suppose to be a LITERAL king, in the line of David. HE did not sit on Davids throne in any way other than in some Christians forced metaphorical sense.
oh dear. Looks like we have a bad case of taking things literally here as in " The king" idea.
And you are missing the point, Judaism is organized religion, Christ was a jew but not of any organized religion, and neither was Isaiah. You are missing the point that all these people have a common lineage in being anti religion.
Why therefore must you use religion to try and contradict the nature of the desert fathers ?
" Christian contemplative prayer dates back at least to the 4th through 6th centuries when the early Desert Fathers and Mothers were active in Egypt, Palestine, and Syria "
stolaf.edu/people/huff/class … Essay.html
It is in effect your ignorance of the spiritual lineage that christ came from that leads you astray.
Christ wished to reform their law, which needed reforming, but it was all tied in with money and goverment and power. Thats why they crucified him. Because rather than change the law it was easier to keep it barbaric. Keep people in fear of the laws of the preists of Isreal.
" Maimonides’ quotes him extensively in the very end of massive, all-inclusive Torah masterpiece “Yad HaChazaka” saying . that Judaism believes in TWO Messiahs!
"The first was King David who saved Israel… and the second will be the FINAL Moshiach an offspring of David as it says (Numbers 24: 17}
It was more a case that the Jews could not accept their saviour had came to them in rags, was known locally as a carpenters son, and into the bargain was performing miracles and standing against the pharisses and saducees.The locally accepted form of divine authority.
Saying the Jews never believed in him as messiah is not saying anything much.
Its probably going to be tomato , tomatoe for you and I.
I take it you mean the Jews, by “they”. However, it would have been Pilate, under the authority of the Roman Empire that dealt Jesus his fate, not the Jews.
Whether a figure like Jesus existed is debatable. There is a little evidence that he did exist; but the lack of hard evidence,and the similarities between “Jesus Christ” and other previous gods, can lead one to believe that Jesus was nothing more than a mythical creation for the rising religion of Christianity.
You miss the point , the Jews called for his execution. They called for it, demanded it. They were as fed up with this rebel as the roman authorities were. They killed.
Read some of the links above
No you miss the point. Pilate was the procurator of that portion of the Roman Empire. He had the power, he made the decisions–not the Jewish Elders. They had no power over Pilate.
That link is hardly credible. Notice how the page calls a website that claims Jesus wasn’t the messiah “anti-Christian”. So any opinion that disagrees with the Christian perspective is anti-Christian? Give me a fuckin break.
Look, I’ve done more than my fair share of research on Christianity and its early history. I know what I’m talking about. I said I can see how both sides can believe the way they do. Clearly you can’t accept the possibility that Jesus may have never even existed, and that is definitely a possibility whether you like it or not. There are vast similarities between the mythical figure of Jesus and previous “gods”, so many similarities that more than likely these characteristics were blatantly stolen from other religious figures.
William wallace was executed because his own people wanted him dead, christ was killed because his own people wanted him dead. Its called betrayal. Understand?
It suited the people themselves to have him killed. Yes pilate may have governed affairs, but you are not looking underneath to the skullduggerry that went on same as it does today.
Of course they did. Read the art of war, read up on military strategy for governing large numbers of people. Its all about getting people on your side, as hitler done by creating a spy state in berlin with everyone watching each other .
The elders influenced pilate because there were lots of jews, lots of jews plus an uprising equals dead romans, plus no tax coming in. You want order, so you can tax the people, but they must be happy. Christ threatened the orthodox jewish way of looking at god, the orthodox way of looking at god meant that the state ticked over nicely .
So it made them unhappy, this unsettled the romans and the elders, that christ spoke of forgivness, breaking down social barriers . Dont be naieve. Most good people in history have been shot down the same way. Martin luther was no exception.