The Transcendent Unity of Religions

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
41

Wow, Nick, You sure interpret things in a depressing way don’t you? How can you find solace in religion when you interpret it so depressingly? Have you tried seeing your scriptures from another point of view? People can never lose the essence of religion, faith is central to the core of ones being. You can’t lose that, you can lose hope in your beliefs but, you can’t lose your beliefs, you can change your beliefs on the outside but, the core remains the core. If you aproach religious doctrine as words that threaten not uplift then you will surely see the outcome as you do. Religous scripture and texts are guidlines, not threats, not promises, they are there to help, not terrify into submission.

It is great that you hold your religion close but, dude I think you are suffocating it. Cut the bible some slack will you. It was lovingly written to uplift and help. Not create a boogyman of doom. The bible shows that faith in man must come before true happiness. All religious texts show this in one way or another. Did you not realize that free will is written into all religious text. You are free to interpret it one way or another, it is your choice. Which way is right and which way is wrong. Well so far the depressing way is held by most.

So what happens when you get a bunch of depressed religious folks of different beliefs trying to follow their doctrine as they interpret it? Add ego and vanity to that. Its is a deadly combination. Oh sure you all will probably go to heaven for following the texts but, how happy will you be when you get there. My advice would be don’t look back and try to forget the doom that is left behind because of depressing choices made in the name of gods.
Nick, Please try to view your religion as velvet glove not an Iron fist. I think you will see things in a better light then you do now. Infact try that with all your learning. Even philosophy and pyschology. You do know that if there is a god, he did give us the ability to laugh and smile in the name of God ,Not just fight in the name of god.
I interpret it to mean history repeats itself until the lesson is learned.
I see learning happening at unprecedented amounts. And I see progress in the average joe in unprecedented amounts. If I am wrong then at least I can comfort myself with the words: Well damn at least I tried to be positive. Which is much nicer then: See I told you so we are too going to die horribly.

Sure this might not have answered your post but, darn, dude, the day was beautiful until I read your post and I had to try and get it back. And try to give you some beauty to make you smile. Once you try viewing religion on a happier level look at your biblical quote again.

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Hi Kris

What can I say; we disagree.

Exoteric religion is for solace, consolation, and uplifting inspiration while esoteric religion is for awakening to reality. Depression comes from interpretations. For whatever reason, even chemical, if a person starts to receive only a limited amount of impressions they experience depression which is basically the lack of impressions.

The whole idea of awakening is to consciously impartially experience impressions. There is nothing depressing about the human condition. It is what it is. What brings the joy is the knowledge that the way out of the cycles exists. But to experience this one must be able to eat their religion as Simone alludes to above.

Years ago I would never have understood this and now I marvel how she could have come to this on her own. If our lives are primarily fantasy, it is difficult to believe that beginning to appreciate cosmic laws or the dharma could be attractive. Yet now I know it is, not to her purity of course, but enough to at least verify and appreciate the validity of the idea…

I associate with people familiar with these ideas and we have humor. It is not the normal humor of putting down people but the ability to laugh at ourselves. There is nothing depressing about admitting what is normal.

But many psychological truths cannot be learned until they are experienced consciously which is impossible for sleeping people. In that condition we are not in the experience so we are not present to learn? We forget and again fall victim to the same circumstances and react in the same way.

I have nothing against smiling and get paid to make people smile. But for me, the greater beauty is in the reality. I’m no saint and of course can imagine with the best of them. but I’ve come to the point of valuing and finding the beauty and joy in the reality as long as it’s taken in the higher perspective. Then “meaning” remains evident, the experience of which is the basic attraction of religion

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I suppose i could ask you how you felt about truth as a real objective and it would amount to the same. I’m asking, do you believe there exists a real and objective Truth, of which each of our life experiences must ultimately be a coherent part?

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It is natural to associate the trancendent with the vertical, i think; but from that comes the hierachy and the arrogance. Because it is natural it is forgivable; this understanding explains the need for humility.

45

To re-focus a little bit, it seems the general thrust here is that religions achieve a common unity through error- that is, the most unifying thing you can say about religion is that they all tend to do the same things wrong, and that to attain true spiritual super-goodness, a first and necessary step would be to dispense with religion altogether, and out-grow it. If that’s the case, it’s not a very useful Unity, is it?

 I think useful unity is out of reach for religion, and nothing evidences this greater than the way religion is actually practiced. If all these different religions were primarily about the same thing, and were primarily pointing towards a uniform ideal, you simply wouldn't have the obvious level of conflict that lead people to posing these questions in the first place.  It surely seems indicative to me that the people who say religion is all about unity, and working together, and that all these beliefs can ultimately come together in harmony are the very same people who are so quick to say "Not ME! I'm not religious, and I think the whole idea of religion is a pox!" Is it possible that you just don't 'get it'?  Put your money where your mouth is, and actually become a Catholic or a Pentacostal or a Hari Krishna or whatever, live the life, adopt the ideas, and see if you still feel united with your polar opposites. 
  Anything less, and it just amounts to "easy for you to say".
46

Nick,

Sorry, but the distinction you’re trying to make has nothing to do with the labels. I could just as easily say that imagination requires attention and creative thought is drawing random associations. The issue is about being awake and aware in all experiencing. Whether one is awake or not awake may be interesting, but it is about being awake - not in some labels.

47

This is a fancy word for one world religion or “all roads lead to God” concept. As wrong as it is, this has been prophesized already. Everyone just sit back and watch it unfold, and be sure to not tune it out!

48

Tent

All you’re doing is assigning words to concepts. The importance is that there is a difference between the two function whatever name you give to them.

You say that the issue is about being awake and this I agree. But when a person discovers that they cannot remain awake for more than brief moments, then, if it means something to them, strive through self knowledge to learn why it is so and what can be done about it. This has led to a very profound psychology.

It is one thing to talk of awakening and quite another “to be able” to do so. The first step is through trying to awaken to see that we cannot for more than a very brief period.

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Hi Astral

Do you acknowledge a theoretical difference between Christianity and Christendom; Christianity being the pure teaching of Jesus and Christendom being man’s interpretation?

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Hi Uccisore

I see it a bit differently. The situation is as it is because collectively we are what we are. The level of exoteric religion reflects man’s being. The basic idea here of the transcendent unity I believe to be for the sake of individuals willing and able to awaken to the idea whatever path they are on, there is more to it then they can experience as they are and try to become open to its transcendent source.

We cannot out-grow what we are. We can only consciously change what we are and as politically incorrect as it is to write, I don’t believe it is possible for collective man but only possible for individuals.

One thing I like about the idea is that it suggests a spiritual direction through which the diversity of spiritual truths evolves back to unity. It contains an “above and below” reflecting the relationship between unity and diversity IMO necessary for the healthy psychological alignment of man’s being which is one purpose of esoteric religious teaching.

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The major participants in any religous unity must first come from the desperate, the tired and ones that have hope of peace. This is the little guys. The ones that truly do the sacrificing not the leaders. Show me any religous or political leader that actually sacrifices or did sacrifice for their followers and I would probably faint dead away for the first time in my life.

You are right about controling the net if leaders did think a poor mans coup was in the making but, it would not be feasable it would if anything promote a coup faster. They would have to know this. Leaders love control but leaders stay in control by knowing when to appear not controlling. All political leaders have leashes and collars attached to them by the ones behind the scenes. It is those masters whom I refer to, They are the true political leaders. every religious and political leader has a master even the pope.

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Nick,

Odd, awakening is awakened. Unless you are suggesting that the only state of being awake is that of the ‘watcher’. Otherwise, one simply falls into the game of behind and behind, and behind… The layers and levels of consciousness is a dangerous game. It is the hall of mirrors, in which the reflections and the reflection of reflections, and… suspends one in mid-contemplation. It is these constructs that prevent us from being ourselves instead of being as ourselves.

There is a Buddhist saying that sartori “leads to hell as straight as an arrow”. It is a warning that, having awakened, do not proceed to reify sleep. There are many who proclaim that, “I done seen the light” and then immediately begin to construct the patterns of sleep once again.
It becomes a project of making new doll clothes. Same old doll, just new clothes.

At some point, one must accept that awakening is shedding the divisive knowing of duality, and begin acting out of intuitive understanding. To do less is to sink back into Plato’s cave. If there is any difficulty is staying awake, it is in ignoring the simplicity of awakening. The layers and levels constructs are the stuff of another tired old dream.

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It’s people who do the same things wrong; religion is people in community trying to do things right.

Clearly a premature conclusion when you consider the role secret groups have played. When you include the secret groups the whole thing screams justice. That you would blame the futility of religion and not the secret groups that neuter them is a grave error.

Well, you would if you included notions of ego and deluded ego. A role for ego in a complex community is rather obvious and, the sort of deluded ego that said role suggests would pose the questions and fall into the conflict you describe.

Left wing corporate; these people are cusped, they are doomed, they are rent in two if they don’t seek forgiveness.

And if there are others around to speak with, it amounts to communion aswell; easy for you to say and communion, those two things. What burden could be lighter?

54

Kris,

If there is to be any unity, it will come of the necessity of cooperation. The controllers now control and profit from polarity, but it will be that moment when the majority of humanity sees that survival of the species relies on cooperation that significant change can occur. Orwell didn’t finish 1984. A constant diet of hatred and strife finally palls as the futility of such a way of living becomes apparent. Damn! I’m starting to sound like one of them pie in the sky optimists instead of the cynical curmudgeon. :blush: Ok, Out on the limb… I refuse to believe that the human spirit can be completely destroyed, that we must of necessity, follow a path of utter destruction. In some ways, the internet has become the delphic oracle. Having tasted the connectiveness, I’m doubtful that the controllers can get the lid back on. They can slow us down, but I don’t think they can ever put the worms back in the can. I doubt that religion will play a very large part in it, but it won’t be because they won’t try…

55

Kriswest;

I take it you don’t consider yourself working class?

Just go ahead and answer the following question in the negative; since, if you were to answer it in the affirmative i would not expect such difficulty. Then you can get on to ignoring me, it’s the in thing.

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Well said!

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I have not ignored you my answers may have been slow but I have answered each post, to the best of my knowledge. it has been a hectic few weeks for me. If I have missed a post I beg forgivenes.

I am both working class and white collar or if you would rather, blue blood. Do you mean a unified solidification of all our experiences or in the singular, each adding to the whole? As far as a real and objective truth Truth as an object /goal. It is possible not probable unless we are children being taught our lessons by a parental entity or if we are merely threads in a tapestry for the entertainment of an omnipotent being. Or a few other reasons.

The answers are never going to appear to us while we hold corporeal forms. These bodies are too limiting to access enough information. Once we are shut of these bodies our energy can and probably will be able to assimilate more data to answer your questions.

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Tentative

I’m not sure how you mean this so don’t know if I disagree from my first reading.

The problem IMO is not the shedding of knowledge but attachments it produces. Actually if a thread on “Attachment” could stay free of nastiness or insult, it could be worthwhile since this word is so meaningful in Buddhism, Hinduism and even Christianity.

So for me, speaking of intuition without first having witnessed ones own attacments through impartial self knowledge is impossible since attachments by definition provide our lives. Take forexample this simple excerpt from:

longleaf.net/ggrow/Buddhism.html

Seeing how subtle this is psychologically, I really believe that acting upon intuitive knowledge rather than a psychological defense mechanisms is far more difficult than first appears.

The idea isn’t to close off from attachments but to experience them consciouosly in order to “Know Thyself” To really consciously experience the arising of greed in oneself is a powerful experience and strengthens the power to “see”.

Try denying yourself half of your dinner tonight as an experiment. Watch how your body and emotional habits tell you how stupid this whole idea is. It is a way of seeing how attachments do not like being denied and the power of their influence.

The whole question of attachment is a profound one and IMO must be considered from the point of view of our own attachments. Any sensible talk on consciouosnes, intuition, and awakening without concern for attachments (sleep) is futile IMO.

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Not a problem; i hope you’ll forgive any offence on my part. It’s not that you have ignored me, it’s that i expect you will ignore me as it seems most others here do.

I think i mean a kernel from which issues our grounded experience, and to which our viable efforts return; i think. It is less important to think about what Truth actually is than it is to think about ways to approach it; in Taoism, if you try to look directly at the Tao you will no longer see its light.

Much of the ground of the hebrew perspective is the instructive parental entity. Threads in a tapestry works for the greek perspective, but i’d replace ‘entertainment’ with ‘articulations’.

There is no reason to start from this assumtion, there is no ground for this assumption; the idea that the answers will never appear to us is not one i can work with.

Transendence is one thing we can make progress on, i think. That a region of the brain is devoted to speech means that speech is transnedent; i mean that speech is a real genre of consciousness.

The unifying aspect of religion is the process of reconsideration with an eye to moving toward perfection. Note that reconsideration is not reevalutation; reconsideration includes a repetative reflection, reevaluation is just one image in one mirror. Science is reevaluation, religion is reconsideration.

60

Jeff,

When I say that we must leave our bodies in order to attain the ultimate truth, I mean our brain cells can only accpet so much information and has limited ability to evaluate and process the information. The amount of matter in our brains constrains us. Look at it this way. A light bulb can contain so much energy. If too much energy flows through it, it will blow. If too little there is no light. A container is a container it has boundries. We are in a container. I believe we are in this container much the way we put seedliings in planters to help them grow stronger and better. Once the seedling has reached a certain growth it can be transplanted to the earth where it will flourish given proper care or just turned loose.

Right now humanity is in the rooting stage of growth. We have yet to even see a healthy stock, let alone branches, leaves and forget flowering that is a long way off yet. we must find the nourishment in our container to grow. Humanity must do this collectively or we will remain forever as merely a sickly root. But, even sickly roots can turn into mighty Oaks given the proper care and nourishment. We inside these bodies are energy. Energy changes it does not cease. Energy requires additives to change and grow.

Science, Philosphy, and Theology all fertilize but, since they are not combined the right way it is not promoting growth just merely sustaining life. Philosophy is the catalyst that is needed to help combine. Too much of one and not the others and no growth possibly even death.
This is a very simplified version of what I see. I hope it explains a little more I lack the time right now to write too much in one sitting.