are politicians psychopaths?

Everyone one has his place, right? His roll in society? Or so they say - these philanthropists who see the good in everyone. In seeing if I could flesh this out for every manner of man, every walk of psychological profile, I stumbled on the psychopath. And if it weren’t for the fact that, a minute earlier, I did the same for the politician, I may just have skipped over the connection - a potential connection - between the two. Is it possible - I questioned - that the only arena in which we see psychopaths as, well, psychopath is outside the game of politics? Could it be that when placed centrally into politics, the psychopath ends up appear as merely a sleezy, corrupt, power-hungry despot? In other words, your typical run-of-the-mill politician? In other words, is the reason why we have psychopaths in society only that some politicians-by-nature simply haven’t found their way to their proper calling and therefore end up taking out their frustrated, but natural, propensities and ‘gifts’ in unproductive and dangerous ways - that is, their need to exert power over others, their self-appointed right to rise above and dominate them?

My first thought was that this couldn’t be possible. Most psychopaths - or psychiatrically diagnoses psychopaths - are, for one thing, stupid. For another thing, they seem to lack social skills. Most psychopaths, whom we find in outstanding number in local correctional facilities like prison and psycho-wards, are really quite inept at getting along in society and doing anything skillfull (except, I guess, hurting people - but this, I assume, is a result of lack of self-control rather than an application of skill). How could they conceivably make it into politics?

But my second thought was that those whom we recognize as psychopaths are probably just those whom didn’t have what it takes to follow their calling - the exceptions to the rule, in other words. After all, isn’t the diagnosing of them as psychopaths just a matter of catching those weak-links who simply weren’t able to, or weren’t fortunate enough, to evade such labeling?

Perhaps this is true, but it does have certain implications: namely, that it must require more than a psychopathic personality to succeed as a politician. It must also require that one be intelligent obviously, and perhaps more obviously that one have exceptional social skills. But given these, I currently entertain the possibility that what more is needed, finally, is indeed a psychopathic personality.

Think about it: what is a psychopath? Consulting most psychiatric authorities, we get a definition that includes chiefly, but not exclusively: one who lacks a sense of guilt or social conscenience. I don’t know how anyone could ever get into politics with even a normal sense of social conscience holding them back. Most of of the time, our social conscience persuades us to second guess our tendencies and desires to exert power over and manipulate others. We like to be fair, kind, cooperative; not domineering, controlling, manipulative. Let’s face it: in order to survive in politics, one has to be ruthless, conspiring, cold and calculating. If not, then someone else will be, and he will eat you up and spit out your bones. The successful politician is he who is totally and utterly self-interested and without a scintilla of guilt. The one ideal he must be guided by, the one goal towards which all his efforts are put, is power.

Now, of course, one is expected to object: how can a psychopath possibly succeed at governing society? The goal is not for him to gain power, but to see society through hardship and strife and towards prosperity and happiness. How can one who doesn’t give a shit for society possibly be trusted with such a burden of responsibility? The answer is this: when it comes to psychiatric dispositions, the rule of thumb is never to think in black and white. The difference between a ‘normal’ human being and a psychopath is not the difference between a social conscience and the lack thereof, but a difference of degree. Psychopaths do have a social conscience - it’s just pittifully weak. This is good news. It means a psychopath can be made to feel guilty about doing harm to others - it just takes a lot - about as much as an entire society willing to rend your head from your body at the first sign of your ineptitude and potential for making their life miserable - and such a society, let’s admit, can be extremely demanding and intolerant.

So society and its bitchy attitude can be enough to keep a psychopath in check, but what about other societies - foreign ones? Well, this is where the psychopathic tendency to be cold and calculating, heartless and inhumane, comes in handy. What do you think it takes for Bush, or any president, to calculate the number of soldiers necessary to send into Iraq - soldiers who have families, goals and aspiration, who fear death and the pain of bullet wounds - in order to secure a reasonable chance of victory or progress? What does it take not to bat an eye over the thought of what he is actually doing in sending young, innocent, and noble men to their deaths? One might argue that Bush is simply weighing the benefits of global freedom from terrorisms and despotism against the costs of American lives, but I wonder whether one can even do this without being cold and calculating, without being overwelming by the passions of empathy and guilt. Would one not have to be numb, uncaring, only concerned with numbers and statistics? Such a responsibility as that which comes with being president, with being chief and commander, sending countless young men to their deaths, would surely and very quickly render anyone other than a psychopath crouched down in a corner, rocking back and forth, wining and lamenting over the stress of the their job. Sure, one may understand that the long term benefits may outweigh the costs of the present moment, but such understanding typically comes with more: it comes with very debilitating emotional anguish and stress, enough usually to break one down psychologically and render him disfunctional - unless, of course, one just doesn’t give a damn, which is just the psychopath.

So the psychopathic politician is kept in check by his own society and its emmensely menacing glare over him, but he is allowed free reign of his self-serving and insatiably power-hungry drive over other societies. These other societies are not of the utmost top priority to the politician’s society. We’re all selfish and uncaring in a way. And so if his spychopathic tendencies are directed towards something other than his own society, there is little, if anything, to stop him. His society is not so concerned in the latter case over what abuses he exercises, not so much because it is compose of equally audacious psychopaths, but because it has distanced itself from the responsibility of making the kinds of executive decisions that he is charged with - that it has charged him with, and precisely because it can’t bear the burden of responsibility, of guilt, that comes with making such decisions itself. Yet because it too has enough of the cold and calculating skills of rational thought as the psychopath himself, but with the additional burden of guilt that comes inevitably with it, it knows - it has to admit - that such harsh and brutal decisions have to be made. If, therefore, someone exists who can make these decisions without the guilt, without anything holding him back, then he is just the man for the job. Society can wash its hands of it while at the same time justify and defend the politician in his decision to do what it simple can’t on the grounds that the logic of the situation concludes only that such decisions must be made.

Only in such a situation is the psychopathic personality redeemed - only as a politician can the psychopath take up his redemption and find his rightful place in sociery.

Some extremely interesting points. Since I have very little experience forming opinions on social, psychological and/or political issues, I can’t come up with an answer to the titular question that I’m certain I believe.

In order to better my own understanding of the subject, please suffer me to ask a related question of my own:
Assuming politicians are psychopaths, would this mean that psychopaths are integral to the continued functioning of society as it is and has been defined throughout history?

To clarify, one of the subconscious desires of the typical society, as I have come to understand, is to seek an authority figure; someone to make the difficult decisions, take the blame when things go wrong, and the credit when things don’t, allowing most persons without such authority to live their lives, happily oblivious to the true larger picture.

I’ve rarely found myself interested in social or political matters to date, and your post is one of the rarities.

I look forward to reading your response, and hope it helps me to reach an answer of my own.

That is basically what I’m saying - plus that the politician is he who has what it takes to make those decisions; namely, the freedom from conscience.

It would seem so, and this is central to my point - the psychopath has a place (given that he has enough intelligence and social skills). Though it should be noted that he performs his role best only when his society plays their role best: namely, to bring his levels of guilty conscience up to ‘normal’ standards and keep it there (by way of keeping him on his toes - i.e. letting him know whose boss, what the consequences will be for poor performances). When they don’t, or when they are not able to, we get the regimes of dictators, totalitarians, and tyrranical despots - indeed, psychopaths as we commonly know them.

Thank you for the extra explanation.

Now that I understand the subject better, I have to say I agree. However this raises the question: What, if anything, can be done, or should be done? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it? I hate taking that stance but if it works it works. If the majority of the population was aware of the psychopathy in their government, would they even be willing to do anything about it? If they did, what happens then? Chaos? Order? The end of all things?

I’m starting to see the dilemma… IS there a dilemma? Morality is so ambiguous, and I’m such a logical person that it hurts my brain.

I think the psychopathic personality can be found in any and all areas of life, not just politics. For some professions that are in line with your way of thinking here, consider petty bureaucrats, corporate CEO’s, etc. But anyone can have a psychopathic personality. I believe that the psychopathic personality is always detrimental, both to society in general and to the psychopath’s own life. The psychopath may find a role in society, but this is despite his pathology, not because of it.

I disagree. The psychopath finds his niche in virtue of precisely that which makes him a psychopath - a lack of guilt (or perhaps only a germinal presence of guilt). You’re absolutely correct to point out the full range of such niches - politics is not the only one (besides CEOs, I might add lawyer and salesman to the list :smiley:) - but the key feature here is that he could not be successful (or as successful) if he did not possess those traits (i.e. lack of guilt) that make him quintessentially psychopathic. Surely the psychopathic personality is not always detrimental (that’s too much of an absolute, don’t you think?), but only when it is not put to good use. This is often very difficult - sometimes impossible - when the psychopath in question lacks what I said are essential for success - namely, intelligence and social skills - but this could be said of any talent or disposition. An artist, if he lacks intelligence and social skills, will find it hard to put his artistic talents to good use. Surely, a lack of guilt can sometimes come in handy, no?

Complete lack of guilt is like complete lack of pain - it is a liability to oneself and others. But, yes, lack of guilt can sometimes come in handy. For instance, it’s not beneficial to anyone to feel guilty all the time.

Sure, it can. A rusty nail can come in handy, too.

A psychopath, being still human, doesn’t find his value (to humanity) in politics. He finds his personal value in politics, maybe, but individually a psychopaths values are actually kind of automatic. They are, more or less, are drawn to power - especially power over people. It just happens. They are not really individuals in this sense. So a psychopath finds his value to humanity when a normal/emotional person kills (metaphorically or physically) them and learns the lessons that come with rising up against the (primitive) forces produced by nature to expedite our evolution. That is their only real value I can see: to die off at our hands.

I suspect it’s a role that attracts the type. Dominant-goal depressives. Bush Jnr. being the classic example.

OG,

What do you say to this from my OP (especially the bold text):

Can you (just quickly) explain how making decisions without guilt is necessarily better? That is, do you think tough decisions cannot be made by a non-psychopath? Sure, some decisions are hard, but I wonder if a decision would be possible for a emotionally-studied person.

Remember Plato said the best rulers are the ones who do not want the job, but do it anyways. Psychopaths most assuredly want the job.

I didn’t say making decisions without guilt is better (if I did, I didn’t mean to), I said that it requires a psychopath (i.e. one whose guilt threshold is high) to function in politics such as to raise his guilt levels to normal standards. That is, anyone else going into politics would probably be so overwelmed by the guilt (pressure to do well) that he would break down and cease to function properly. At the same, the politician must be rid of any feelings of guilt when it comes to matters such as bombing another country, or sending soldiers off to war and possibly to their death, or cutting jobs or education, etc. If he should feel guilty in these situations, it will be the responsibility of the people he rules over to impose this guilt - protesting against such decisions if the greater portion of them don’t aprove. It’s this pressure from the people themselves that raises the psychopathic politician’s guilt to the levels appropriate to what the people think is right and moral.

I’m not a Platonist.

Yes and I’m asking you why it is ‘required.’

Also, I have no idea what you mean by ‘normal’ levels.

I supposed ‘required’ may be a strong word, but I certain think it helps a hell of a lot. I doubt you’d deny that politics is a high stress job, and most of that stress comes from social pressure - from your peers, your superiors, your clients, the public for whom you’re working. What is guilt but the feeling that others are dissappointed in you (or will be if you don’t shape up) and are willing to apply the consequences? The stress of the job just is the guilt of not being able to meet the standards. What is required is the ability to fluff off the pressure, to not let it get to you. A high guilt threshold certainly helps. I suppose drugs and alcohol might also help. :smiley:

A typical psychopath who doesn’t feel any remorse over a murder he commits has a ‘low’ level of guilt. Someone like Martin Luther who stressed over every little unclean thought in fear that he might go to hell has a ‘high’ level of guilt. Someone who can indulge in dirty thoughts or go out drinking without feeling guilt, but would feel guilt if he was caught cheating on his wife, would have a ‘normal’ level of guilt. A ‘normal’ level of guilt just means a tendency to feel guilt about as often, as much, and for similar reasons as the average healthy individual.

I agree that it can help. There is a big difference between that, and it being necessary to help.

Just because a psychopath can make decisions easily doesn’t make them a good ruler, necessarily. I’m trying to say that, in the long run, it’s actually quite bad to have someone like this ruling. As you have someone ruling that almost categorically doesn’t represent the subjects they’re supposed to be serving. One could argue a good ruler makes hard decisions, instead of being a utilitarian calculator because they don’t have emotions.

But what if being put in a position of power gives you those emotions? What if the threat of uprisings and mutiny, the threat of being lynched if you dissappoint the public, instills the necessary compassions and ‘feelings’ for doing the right thing?

I belive it’s due to extreme oppotunism that they are pressured or push themselves into psycotic actions, it seems like a conditioned mass psycosis.

A psychopath isn’t going to get scared, or any other emotion. They are going to simply make a calculation. Maybe I am glossing over the psychology of the psychopath, but I think the main definitional component about them is that they don’t feel emotion in the same way as we do.

Think you have seen too many movies, psycos can indeed have feelings, and emotions, just that they’r distorted.

It’s a lack of empathy: they cannot connect to people. It’s a closed-system of emotion. All sentient beings, I would imagine, experience qualia.

Think of a James Bond romance scene as opposed to a James Bond love scene - which cannot happen. Women are attracted to Bond because he’s the perfect evolutionary mate. He’s a stone cold killer. You think he cares about the fate of the world and it’s occupants? He cares about the mission, and fulfilling baser instinctual desires. He’s a psychopath.

My argument all along is that system of clandestine killing and dead logic has served us well (enough - I mean we’re still here), but now it’s time for a change. Time to grow up. Look around at the material cultism that has developed by elevating the non-emotions of these people. Why continue to do it? What reason can anyone offer other than the Faustian ego-centonism Americans just automatically hold up as a defense mechanism? There really isn’t one, I promise you. I come here every day looking for it.

Should we continue to espouse the positive values of psychopaths they will kill us all, and take your rightful potential for themselves. Have some pride, for christ’s sake.