Islamic History, Doctrine... & Questions

aspacia · June 6, 2005, 1:50am

AVICENNA A.D.:

You are prejudiced. You demonstate this over and over.

Generally against all faiths, not just Islam, as are many members.

Boo hoo. But in light of my post, my point is that I am not religious but find certian value in Islam worth defending. That was the issue.

I find Islam, and all faiths violent and misogynistic. I am very open and honest regarding this with individuals of all faiths. SO WHAT? Who really cares. I admit I am culturally biased, but so is everyone else. I know this, do you? I doubt it.

Aspacia:

I take it you are Muslim and deeply religious, else you would have not reacted as you did to my posts.

I stand by this quote, you are deeply religious, else I doubt you would have reacted in such a rage. I am 52, and have encountered this many time with relgious individuals regardless of faith.

In context, you charged that I defend Muslim countries who commit atrocities, which is untrue, you pigeon hole me as a religious fanatic.

Yes, I would not let you onto my property as I do deem you a fanatic.

You are the only person on this board, the BBC Board, Guardian Board who made ad hominem attacks against me. Some may say I am misinformed, Hell, on certain subjects, especially science, I might be, but never stooped to your rage and nastiness. Some may say ninny, but have never stooped to your level. I will omit exactly what I am thinking.

I only made clear that I am not religious and not associated with one, nor defend human rights violators. I find your way of seeing one who defends Islam (as a religious fanatic and human rights violation supporter, and terrorist as you would have me by telling me you fear you will be attacked by a fanatic) very antagonistic to peace and understanding between peoples. Very brute and Fallwell-esque.

I dislike Falwell too. Also, how many years have you devoted to studying Islam? Let me think now, you started at eight.

I peruse the major tenets of all faiths and ask scholars what it meant by the various texts. None, and I do mean none, have answered by inquiries to the point where I might consider any of them valid, instead of mythology, and I do consider them all mythology.

Aspacia:

I teach college students, and you are a college student. Think about that for a minute.

I do not LIE. I will post my Vitae, albeit without my institution’s name or my name if you wish.

I attended Crafton Hills College, University of Redlands and the University of California San Bernardino, I will tell you that much, but no names as more than one Middle-Eastern reporter and religious leader has made death threats because I asked very specific questions regarding the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Talk about insecure in their claims and faith. Yes, I still go after them, but I do not have anything listed in my name. Get it?

Hmm.

AVICENNA:

I have no idea what makes you think I know little about Islam. I’ve studied Islam since about 8 years old. I’ve taken Islamic studies courses, advanced ones, Imam training, Shaikh training, taught at an Islamic center in Los Angeles, etc. How could a zionist tell me I don’t know Islam, much less one who is not Muslim, has not studied Islam like I, and has an admittedly cynical approach when reading about it, and only cites the USC Muslim Student Association website for Islamic knowledge.

Aspacia:

Also, your claim supports my view that you are religious, and it is deeply religious who react with ad hominem attacks when their faith is critiqued. To be secular does not mean you are not religious. AND YOUR ARE RELIGIOUS

I have studied Islam, therefore, you infer I am religious, despite my clarifying over and over what I am-not religious. Besides, this was my most recent post, you’ve been categorizing me as a “deeply religious Muslim,” far before I let you in on my past with Islam. Ok. Are you not pigeon hole-ing? Are you not painting one who defends Islam in a way that you would like? Yes you are. Stop.

Ten to one says you are religious and attend services. Why go to school to become an Iman and Sheik if not religious? Quit deluding yourself and admit it.

If the kitchen is too hot, get out The mods have not banned me, but I imagine they might you for your profanity. Ben are you listening.

Gimme a break, “if the kitchen is too hot…” you really take yourself too seriously. “Ben are you listening,” shame on you Aspacia. Ban me for profanity…well “monkeys ass” as you posted I suspect does not qualify as profanity, “shit” does qualify according to you. I have no doubts that you would want me banned, I am the only person who spends a decent amount of time (or at least more than anyone else) defending Islam. Me banned, you would be able to spew your inaccurate and often ungrounded, irrelevant, posts on Islam free from debate.

I do not “give a monkey’s ass” what you think. I am not inaccurate and can pull many Islamic texs from a valid source to support my view. Also, many others said they would defend Islam, hum, that was several months ago and they still haven’t. I am waiting. My previous posts have triggered many negative reactions To date, not one has justified the few hadiths I have posted. Yes, I know, not all follow the hadiths, regardless they could not justify the bs in the Qu’ran either and they probably know it. I am waiting???

You are not a scholar, you are not a Ph.d, you are not pursuing a Ph.d in anything,

No, I do not have a Ph.D. (FYI: doctor of philosophy) I have two B.A.'s and an M.A. I disliked the ivory tower crowd’s arrogance.

and the way you transmit your “knowledge” exhibits you are not at the level of any of the above. More, you debate in a way that in inconducive to the objective of the debate. I am not the first member to say this.

I do not care what others think, never have. Just persue my honest opinions. That is, I speak honestly, and often bluntly, I do not lie. If someone dislikes what I say, fine. I am more than willing to state “I stand corrected.” To be human is to err.

Yes, I am considered a scholar, even by Ph.D’s, who I work with. They often will ask, “Hey, you have a background in history, what about …” So what. I am a Phi Alpha Theta, and just have read more history than they have. My significant other knows far more regarding the Civil War than I do and does not have a degree in history, but he is my source if I want a quote or statistics regarding the Civil War.

You post unrelated charges and just state how Islam is so terrible, etc. You have not cited one book!

Okay, you asked for it. Here are just two:

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle was asked, “What is the best deed?” He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, “To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah’s Cause.” The questioner again asked, “What is the next (in goodness)?” He replied, “To perform Hajj (Pilgrim age to Mecca) 'Mubrur, (which is accepted by Allah and is performed with the intention of seeking Allah’s pleasure only and not to show off and without committing a sin and in accordance with the traditions of the Prophet).”

that’s a sign in itself. You’re a google philosopher.

I am a historian and an English Composition person, these are my disciplines. I was very clear regarding this. At for your implied insult, ask any academic librarian, books are becoming defunct. An indivudual just needs to be careful regarding what is on the web. I am very discrete regarding this.

I don’t think one need a Doctorate to be an expert or scholar, necessarily. Many of the greatest minds were not institutional philosophers, etc.

I agree with this, as in my previous post regarding my significant other.

And let me make clear what I have made clear before, I am not a scholar.

Yes, your voice clearly indicates this.

You would various times claim intellectual superiority over me regarding the topic we’ve been discussing: Islam.

I do not believe I mislead you, I simply have more training in analyzing and critiquing texts than you. This is my gig.

How you formulate your knowledge of Islam is greater than mine… I do not know.

I am asking you to read the texts without some religious scholar telling you what the texts mean. This is one of my peeves against Medieval Catholicism keeping the services in Latin to gain economic wealth.

In my opinion, and many disagree, and this is fine, religion is used and misinterpreted by many to gain wealth, power, prestige. This applies to all faiths, not just Islam.

It is that I have been researching this faith recently, and have found it wanting. You talk about its poetry dazzling, I do not find it dazzling. I simply find it oppressive, violent and misogynistic, similar to all other faiths.

What I do know is that you bash Islam on any thread you can, with the same old posts on the same old things, irrespective to the topic of the thread (I am not the only member to point this out) I am the only person here who will not allow you to get over your sometimes senseless babble on Islam which is clearly rooted in some emotional aggression toward the religion.

To which I am still awaiting a decent reply regarding how wonderful this faith is. To date none. Why? Because there more call for supression in this faith than tolerance. For every one verse of tolerance, I can supply five of suppression.

You claimed to be a zionist–Israel belongs to the Jewish people because God said so, Jews are the chosen (“favoured” is the translation in various texts) by God…

Again, I will supply the previous threads hashed out on ILP. Original Zionism is not religious, it was secular. Obviously, you did not read the threads.

Look, Jews have been persecuted since the days of Pharoah. They have been tortured, ghettorize, expelled and massacred. I simply want them to have a land of their own so this will not continue to occure. Check the stats regarding the Nobel Prize winners against the numer of the Jewish comminity worldwide. They are a wonderful people who have contributed a great deal to humanity, so did the Islamic community several hundred years ago, the Romans and Greeks.

ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/vi … p?t=138864
ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/vi … p?t=140011

Here is another bone to chew on:
ajc.org/InTheMedia/OpinionsD … 2&pid=1161

A common Jewish saying is, and please correct me if I am wrong, “If planting a sapling, and the messiah comes, finish planting the sapling, and go and greet him.”

Jews appear to be concerned with life and so am I.

–and in the meantime bashed religions and dogma in them.

SO WHAT? WHO CARES IF I DISLIKE ISLAM OR ANY OTHER FAITH! GET OVER IT, THIS IS A FREE, SECULAR SOCIETY.

But are nonetheless a zionist.

Yes, and a Feminist Goy.

I have nothing ill to say of zionism here, but I just thought it would be valuable to point out the position from which you raise your objections to Islam. I am afraid your objections are not rooted in a real contention with Islam itself, per se. Your politics are a clear motivator, at least in part. I thought it would be important to make this clear for all.

My comments are not political, I have major problems with all faiths. Get over it already. Most of my comments were directed at the religion.

My apologies to the author of this thread, thirst4metal for participating in the deterioration of this very important, and well intended thread.

Ditto from aspacia. I did have problems with your protagonist analogy. Were you discussing Abraham, Moses, Mohammed?

AVICENNA_A.D · June 6, 2005, 3:03am

You are hilarious. I am iritated by lack of coherency and google researchers, not opponents of Islam.

You would deem me a fanatic, any closed minded zionist would want to paint any defender of Islam as such. Cheap.

Thirst4metal also called you pathetic, identified your posts as largely irrelevant, poorly argued and said he was “baffled by your reasoning” as well. This is just a few posts ago. Thus, I am not the only who has made (as you would call them) “ad hominem attacks.” They’re not so much attacks Aspacia, more like a friendly offer of reality

But I asked you twice which Islamic scholars (living humans) you’ve corresponded with, to which you replied with websites. You’re a google philosopher.

It’s amazing how you formulate these probabilities with little to no tangible variables. You’re truly pathetic…

I studied Islam. You conclue I am “deeply religious,” “attend services” and “are a fanatic.” You are a pathetic old lady
Thirst4metal studied Christianity in Ministry school, he is full fledged atheist. But in your logic, this is an impossibility, or actually, maybe just for us fanatic Muslims who might attack you as you said. Pathetic old lady…lock your doors!

No, YOU trigger many negative reactions. It’s your demeanor, your attitude, and your idiocy you deem knowledge. I mean you have concluded from 6 or so posts on this site where I made no allusion to any political, extreme views, that I am a “fanatic” am “deeply religious” and somehow formulate "10 to 1 that I attend services. Pathetic old bird…

Well I have a conclusion regarding you: YOU ARE A PROPAGANDIST. I have data though, we’ve engaged in debate before on hadith, I was on as “Avicenna-Ilm al Kalam,” and I responded to some your hadiths-by narrators I’ve never heard of and no significant school of Islam subscribes to-in detail. Then you make the same statement above to help substantiate your anti-Islam cause. Pathetic old propagandist

Who?? You’re full of it. So which Ph.D’s are you referring to? Oh, I forgot, you cant say because I am a religious fanatic with terrorist ties as you charged and I will track you down right? Just a propagandist, pathetic old bird on the internet all day…google researcher

Never heard of this hadith, probably Wahhabi. But why don’t you ask one of your many scholar buddies who you hang out with all the time. If you really rub elbows with all types of scholars, Muslim scholars as you’ve claimed as well, why has your question gone unanswered. In any event, I gave you 2 great sources on Islam to pursue your questions a while ago

islamicity.com
1. WHY-ISLAM-A live person will answer

But still you make claims that no Muslim will answer your questions. You are a propagandist, part of the movement to paint Islam as a religion as a terrorist supporting fanatical movement. You are a war mongerer, a liar, and seek to mislead people on this site and elsewhere about Islam, attributing the Qur’an as a whole, and religion as a whole to a fringe movement. Shame on you for your intolerance peddling, false information leading to alienation. You are an opponent to understanding, peace and common grounds between similar peoples (Jews, Christians, and Islam). Come to think of it, I have never heard your “even handed criticism of all religions” directed toward Judaism or Jews. There are major acts of terrorism in the creation and history of Israel, your own PM was killed by a Jewish terrorist for his progressiveness in peace with Palestinians. Yitzhak Rabin was killed by a Jewish terrorist. But I am not a propagandist and will not attribute this to Judaism.

Yes. Why don’t you do a google on the real meaning of Jihad in Islam (since I know you won’t go to a library) Jihad is to stuggle, which comes in many forms. A struggle with oneself to be temperate, to free oneself from our earthly shackles. Another form is to defend oneself and fight injustice. America’s war against Hitler is considered a jihad. It was a just struggle in form of war, against injustice. You want to attribute jihad, per se, to terrorism. You are a propagandist. Fortunate that most people are not as lazy as you here and might actually research the true meaning of Jihad. You want to attribute what Muslims do to Islam. Should we attribute what Christians do to Chrsitianity? In Europe, many are Christians, among them, some commit adultery, does Christianity permit adultery? No. Among them, some Christians commit murder, theft, oppression, etc. Does Christianity preach these? No. But you want to do that to Islam. Propagandist.

Not at UCLA or USC, Harvard, Georgetown, etc… We still use books. I don’t know about the rest of you guys. But unfortunately you rely on the internet solely for your knowledge. You only cite websites. Scholars do not do this. I asked you to read Fall of the Angel by St. Anselm a while back with regards to a dual oriented being, in light of free will. You returned with some of his history, said he endorses the papacy, "do you want me to get started on Catholicism " you said, (with the emoticon). An example of your status as a google researcher, and your incoherency, lack of focus and raising irrelevant non issues to subjects on threads. So “books are becoming defunct.” You might be justified in saying so if you actually accessed books online rather than some random website with some random persons commentary. First you say I understand nothing and comprehend nothing on Islam, then say I’m a fanatic who is deeply religious and attend services and the only source of info. on Islam you’ve cited so far is a college Muslim Student Association website. Pathetic

How you come to this conclusion is beyond me…google researcher, training my ass

So speak to a scholar, you come on this informal website and claim you have refuted Islam. You will not pursue the two sources I’ve listed because you are a propagandist who wants people to believe Islam is an evil religion and the people are fanatics.

Propagandist! Shame on you

aspacia · June 6, 2005, 2:42pm

Here you go again, attacking me and not discussing the issues. I added IslamCity to my favorites and am perusing the site. Did you peruse the sites I provided? NO. You are too fearful and myopic. You claim the hadith quotes are invalid. They are not, you can find these exact quotes on the sites I provided. I read all the positions regarding politics and religions. That is, I read CAIR as well as anti-CAIR. I read Arutz Sheva, Haaretz, Al Jazeera, AMIN, and many other sources to find balance. Do you. I doubt it. I peruse BBC’s religion and ethics boards regarding Christianity, Judaism, Islam for insight into what the average faithful believe.

I have many links to valid religious sites on my favorites page when I have questions for scholars. That is I will use the IslamCity as well as others regarding Islam, and ask Moses for questions regarding Judaism.

I wrote an academic librarian regarding her claim regarding books becoming defunct in there present form, as they will probably be on line.

What are you so afraid of?

I am not afraid of admitting acknowledging many problems with not only my country, other countries, and issues of faith.

Yes, I am 52, and have a 26 year-old son, and a 56 year-old significant other. How on earth does this invalidate my claims?

I am also well read, politically, and physically active, and a popular instructor who has had numerous return students. I have had to ask the department chair to assign me to other courses to prevent the continual returning students as they need exposure to other instructors. .

You are an immature child. Your behavior resembles that of many children when they are caught misbehaving as well as many Middle-Eastern reporters rhetoric when questioned. One jerk, who claims to be well-educated, said “I will pray you come down with cancer” rather than answer my queries regarding faith and politics. Silly, silly man.

You are the one who should be ashamed.

AVICENNA_A.D · June 6, 2005, 6:36pm

Well this is something I would never say, or wish. But I’ve encouraged you to take these up with scholars, and have given you sources that do not require you to leave the house (because you seem to only use the internet) because I am not a scholar. And if I am this immature, poorly educated, dumb child who knows nothing about Islam, why are you asking me to answer your questions? Go to someone who will have good answers for you. But I resent the claim you constantly make-that no Muslim will answer your questions and you are received with hostility by all Muslims, etc. I gave you islamicity.com If you post there, your question will be answered by a professional. I gave you (877) WHY-ISLAM Call and you will speak to a live person. I also encourage you to visit the Islamic Center of Southern California. Google them, they have many bright educated old people, not silly children like me. So take it up with someone who can talk to you instead of posting some hadiths on this site and making an official declaration that Islam has been refuted by you. You do not know enough to refute it.

All websites, discussion forums. Go read a real book on Islam!

Neither am I. The topics of trouble in Islam to me are philosophical. I study the debates between Ibn Sina, Imam al-Ghazali, and the philosophies of Al Farabi, etc. These little problems you have with quotes from the Qur’an you take out of context, hadiths from narrators I’ve never heard of, etc. are esily replied to by the sources I gave you. But I would more than all of them, encourage you to pursue your questions with the Islamic Center of Southern California. They are in downtown LA on Vermont if you call 411 to get the number.

You are full of non sense, just go to the Islamic Center of Southern California, and stop spewing propaganda about Islam. It is antagonistic to peace and understanding that we (Christians, Jews and Muslims) are very similar. All on ILP have my posts to read and will find I am not charging anything that I have not supported. You are a propagandist. Look up the meaning, you mislead.

thirst4metal · June 6, 2005, 6:59pm

HELL(O) F(R)IEND(S)

I second this opinion of Aspacia. I am irritated by you for various reasons. The following is my honest opinion and is not an attack.

Your comments are sometimes borderline racist or prejudiced.
Your logic is often fallacious.
You ignore requests and do not show simple courtesy.
You truly appear to be a google researcher with unoriginal ideas and regurgitated logic.
You start intelligent posts but inescapably devolve into senseless rhetoric.
Your judgment calls baffle me–how can you define AVICENNA as a fanatic, as intolerant, or as a threatt?
You use your teaching “credentials” as a source of credibility. It doesn’t mean anything. Besides your posts indicate otherwise.
You are subsequently upset when those credentials are criticized/challenged then incorrectly label the critique ‘ad hominem’

An observation of someone’s character is only an ad hominem attack if they are using that observation to denounce your credibility. In my opinion, AVICENNA never attacked ASPACIA. Stating that someone’s post is irrelevant or poorly argued and flawed is not an ad hominem attack. AVICENNA called your logic INANE, not you… I too, call your logic inane. But that shouldn’t lead you to think that I disrespect you or that I too am attacking you.
Calling your logic/argument inane is a request for you to clarify your proposition/point. It is not ad hominem

If anything, you appear to be more intolerant, see your post below:

SOMETHING TO WRAP IT UP: ZIONISM has nothing to do with this thread… please start it or go to those threads. The protagonist in the story is Mohammed. I will clarify this in my NEXT thread or post.

Let’s stop arguing, let’s make clear and concise propositions, and let’s all get educated about each other’s points of view.

aspacia · June 6, 2005, 7:05pm

aspacia is LOL I did go to IslamCity and posted a question regarding drugs. The response was from a lay person.

You do not understand, I do not give a rat’s ass what you think. If you find my critiques antagonistic, tough.

Again, your rhetoric resembles that of the many Muslims I have contacted. It is childish.

AVICENNA_A.D · June 6, 2005, 7:09pm

Again Aspacia, why don’t you consult one of your many scholar buddies who you hang out with. But if you are serious about learning about what you wish to attack, you will leave your house and make a visit to the Islamic Center of Southern California. I encourage you to call and try to set something up with one of the Hathout brothers who are the experts, Ph.d’s and pro’s on Islam so that you don’t just show up and have no one to talk to. You will be warmly welcomed and respected for your intiative to learn. Tell them you are a College instructor, etc. and you want to understand these issues so that you can transmit them in a true way. Where’ the childishness in this?

aspacia · June 6, 2005, 10:04pm

thirst4metal:

HELL(O) F(R)IEND(S)

AVICENNA A.D.:

I am iritated by lack of coherency and google researchers, not opponents of Islam.

Again, books, as we now know them will probably become defunct and only seen on paid or free on line sites. I am repeating what an academic librarian told my English 1A class. I was as surprised as you probably are.

I second this opinion of Aspacia. I am irritated by you for various reasons. The following is my honest opinion and is not an attack.

Okay, I accept this, as I like your tone.

Your comments are sometimes borderline racist or prejudiced.

I dislike all faiths, I especially dislike Islam. Hum, I am going to post from another site, and this is similar to much of what I have read. The problem is that AVICENNA (an Islamic philosopher’s name) will not acknowledge any sources but his own and insults the intellect of any person who disagrees with him.

TheAdlerian
Thinker

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 254

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:44 pm Post subject:

Actually, I have pretty good critical thinking skills, but then how would I know that if I didn’t? If you had good critical thinking skills you would be an atheist, so there.

He is responding the the insult from the reigious one.

Seriously though, how have I seen and read what you haven’t? Iâ€™m not trying to be funny here.

I used to work in a prison. There were many Islamic people in the prison and they were frequently trying to start trouble. Not that this group represents average Muslims, but I can see how the religion inspires troubled thinking.

Anyway, I wanted to make friends and would help them whenever I could. I thought that I was helping these people by copying the Koran (page by page) on a copying machine, as they were having trouble getting new ones with Arabic writing. The book was half English and half Arabic. In the act of copying the book I ended up reading a lot of it. That is when I noticed many of the things in it.

I even got an inmate to expose literature that was going around detailing what type of Americans that it is ok to kill. There was also a detailed description of why the 911 attack was not immoral, even though women and children were killed. That was because in war it was ok for Muslims to use catapults. Catapults could not be aimed and if women and children were in the way that was unfortunate. The airplanes were likened to the catapult projectile.

Anyway, all of this made me buy a Koran and even read up on it online.

Interestingly, the inmates in the prison were planning some kind of violence as they had stashed homemade knives in the temple. Security busted them thanks to my bit of investigative work.

The story of Mohamed is pretty clear.
anwary-islam.com/prophet-story/muh.htm

The guy most likely had a psychotic break stress induced from an unfortunate life of constant turmoil. Frankly, I believe that the same thing happened to Jesus, if indeed he was real at all. Anyway, I have met many people that begin seeing and hearing, sometimes very positive messages that usually involve their own importance, after a series of traumatic events. Thatâ€™s not so bad until he started killing people for disagreeing with him.

So, the religion has a role model that killed people that disagreed with his delusional ideas. That sets up all of his followers to do the same.

Meanwhile, I do not think that Mohamed was evil. It just sounds like he lost his mind.

Check out these references: hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html

Friends:

[3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
[3.118] O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

This is pretty clear, and it speaks to Islamic countries ability to relate to non-Islamic countries. On an individual basis Iâ€™m sure that this does not amount to much, but as Islamic policy I bet it does.

Killing:
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.
[4.93] And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.
[17.33] And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

Killing and smiting necks, thatâ€™s the theme. Itâ€™s ok to kill, as long as they are not your own people. Do all Muslims do it? No! However, it is policy.

Slaves:

[4.92] And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a convenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
[24.33] And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world’s life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Slaves! Itâ€™s still happening in the Sudan and I believe the United Arab Emirates. This is not some ancient history we are talking about itâ€™s active.

Bigotry:

[2.221] And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

Can I marry your sister?
â€œHey, what are you doing with that sword?â€
â€œOuch!â€

These kind of ideas indicate that others are not good enough to marry into your families. The implication is that â€œinfidelsâ€ arenâ€™t good enough. Meanwhile, it makes sure that you remain a tight little economic group.

So, that is the information that I have gotten from both the printed word and an online document. I have told you how and why I got interested in the book. I will say that in regard to how Muslims are supposed to treat other Muslims, for however bigoted that might be, the morals are good. Itâ€™s just too bad that they seem to be only for Muslims.

Avicenna writes:

Alderman has the same response I do.

Your post: Oh yeah, well I saw this Christian guy one time, he was on TV and stuff and he was doing bad stuff and so his book is like real evil and stuff…
I take back the benefit of a non native English speaker…you’re a blithering dullard.

Sure live in denial if you like. That is what you have been taught. However, the story went on for an hour and that was one section of it. Mostly it was about the prince in Saudi Arabia, who in my opinion seemed like a very nice person interested in progress. He was contrasted against the Iman who was greatly against the princeâ€™s attempts to change values.

The world is getting smaller due to travel and the media. There is no room on Earth for tribal religions that do not accept outsiders as equals. Such religions must be eliminated or turned into hobbies if we are to have world peace, to any degree.

Have fun!

Quite right, but I suggest you review Avicenna’s post calling me foul, bigoted, etc. Also, you make the same claim. If it is bigoted to reject and critique this religion, check the above claims, you are entitled to your opinion.

Again, I dislike all faiths, especially Islam. Regardles of what I post, neither of you will acknowledge the nasty aspects of this faith.

I stand by my comment, I will not let this guy near my, my family and my peers would find him ludicrous.

Is the protagonist Mohammed throughout your analogy. It seemed to jump from Abraham, Moses, Jesus to Mohammed?

I may review your first post in this light.

aspacia · June 6, 2005, 10:29pm

I will not go to the center, but I will email them as I do not put myself into the lion’s den. Ten to one, when I provide the many intolerant, violent and misogynistic hadith and Qu’ranic quotes they will respond in the same fashion you do.

“Racist”
“Islamophobic” Yes, I am against the BS religious leaders who validate the crap that is going on. Also, they are not my brothers. I agree with this one until someone can explain and justify much of its BS. Do I discriminate against Muslims. Hell no! Khan, the Chevron gas station attendent, is a really nice guy and I have often asked after his health and possible discrimination in our town. “No” you, and all the people living here have been very supportive of me. I have Muslim student’s who confide in me. I have asked if they have suffered discrimination. Yes. Guess who from. Muslim religious leaders who do not want them socializing with the infidels. I counseled them to find another mosque, as I hope not all imams, clerics, muftis hold these view.

I did have one valid response from Cambrerro, on the BBC Islamic blog explaining why polygamy is allowed, (the many widows needed to be cared for and could not work for a living then)

I asked about now, why polygamy is still legal and why women were not allowed to work and care for themselves in case of divorce or widowhood. no response. I also asked regarding the legality of concubines. No response.

Look, I have had several Muslim students. One, a very intelligent older woman with a young daughter told me regarding her divorce plight. It seems, she helped support the family while her husband was off work, and this used all her dowry. The Islamic court refused her child support and alimony as she should not have used her dowry to support the family. What? Was she to let her family starve? Many female Muslim students have presented regarding how to reform Islam. Can the current batch of religious leaders and install educated religious leaders that know all faiths.

I maintain my position that Islam is a nightmare that has not evolved into the present.

BTW: thanks for developing a nicer tone of voice.

thirst4metal · June 6, 2005, 11:42pm

HELL(O) F(R)IEND(S)

Aspacia, I dislike all religions. However, I don’t shout it from the top of my lungs every opportunity I get… very similar to a religious person shouting Jesus Christ is the only way and all other religions are wrong and their believers will go to hell.

The point is that shouting out I hate all religions is nearly the same as saying I hate all religions except my own. Do you see the similarities? I AM NOT stating that you do not have a right to your opinion, I am merely saying that this is not helpful to a philosophical issue. I have stated many times that the most appropriate forum for this is the Rant House. WOULD YOU AGREE?

Not the case. I disagree with him. He has pointed out, in his own words, that he does not find you credible–this is mainly because you keep stating that you are credible because: (1) You are a teacher (2) with two B.A. degrees and one Masters (3) your Ph.D buddies consider you a scholar (4) and you have done 1 year of research on Islam. All the while many of your posts have begun in one direction and ended in another meanwhile missing any target in between. This is not a critique, again, it is a request that you focus on your points.

Either (A) I have misinterpreted your posts or (B) You simply hate Islam and its followers without truly understanding the religion in depth.

See, I believe the problem is evident above. I don’t know who wrote it but why would you go to a mosque or a church with complaints? I may have questions. I would ask questions regarding the validity of a particular doctrine of Islam, Catholicism, et al. The attempt is not to criticize the attempt is to learn. Now, do you mean to go complain or do you mean to go and question? Also, is not the tone of the laughter and the chair thing mean spirited?

I believe aspacia wrote the above. First, I acknowledge the nasty aspects of all faiths. However, if the point of a thread is to learn more about a specific section of a faith and you continue to digress, then how will I learn anything else besides your point that this faith has nasty aspects?

I think a lot of people would find him ludicrous… afterall, racism is very common in this world. Do you feel this way about everyone who isn’t like you and your circle? Or, am I misunderstanding your “intentions.”

Yes, it is Mohammed throughout the story… I said I would clarify this soon in a separate post or thread (I’m leaning to a thread).

You know, we can all have differences of opinion and can intelligently discuss why we cannot accept the other person’s opinion.

AVICENNA_A.D · June 7, 2005, 12:21am

Aspacia miquoted and mixed up what I said and what Alderian said. Here is the real conversation between Alderian and I. And yes, I do talk at more liberty in the Rant House, how its relevant to the topic? Its not, dont take it to the heart, just focus on the content of my points. If you are offended by “meanness,” I would ask you to refrain from reading this…
Correspondence between AVICENNA and Alderian:

AVICENNA A.D.

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 48
Location: UCLA
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:42 am Post subject:

TheAlderian:
Quote:

Meanwhile, you crap on the book and whatnot to demoralize a group of murders that get their justification to murder from that same book.

In no place does the Qur’an unequivocally instruct Muslims to kill innocents. If you wish to argue otherwise, cite your source in the Qur’an. The Qur’an was revealed over many years and the revelations sometimes came as a message pertaining to the problem of the time. For example, the Muslims were under the threat of extermination by the Meccan Quraish, idolaters army. They had fled various times to evade a war, sought refuge in a Christian ruled land where they were granted safety and asylum. At one point, under threat of attack, they were permitted to fight in a revelation. “and slay the pagans when you see them.” Muslim fundamentalists use this to convince dullards to take it literally, they take the Qur’an free from context and look at each ayah in isolation and take it totally as literal…hence fundamentalism. We can do this with the Bible I suspect as well. T4M, any thoughts?

Most english speaking Muslims read Yusef Ali’s translation of the Qur’an (English translation). I encourage you all to look at it and make citation protocol when attempting to attribute belief of the Qur’an, to the Qur’an.

“I just got here and you’re talkin’ about bananas.”

AVICENNA A.D.

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 48
Location: UCLA
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:49 am Post subject:

TheAlderian:
Quote:

They do not want â€œuncleanâ€ people to handle the book. That is because their bigoted religion views all infidels as being unclean. So, when you handle the book with gloves you are reinforcing their bigoted belief system. They are making you act as if you are unclean.

Imagine our reaction if prisoners didnâ€™t want black people touching their food or something. Itâ€™s just that this is more subtle.

Anyway, I would not deliver their book at all, or it would be planted firmly between my muscular butt cheeks.

Amazing exhibition of knowledge here (heavy sarcasm applicable). There is no such a thing as “unclean people” in Islam. There is no such belief in Islam that all infidels are unclean and that they cannot handle the Qur’an. The same idiots who propogate this view are the same ones who say that Islam wants to convert the world. Reconcile the two Alderian.

There is such a thing as (physically) “unclean” however. But I find it unlikely that anyone deny this of any faith. The Qur’an is to be handled with clean hands, not desecrated, etc. as a demonstration of respect. Anyone can read the Qur’an. You just have to wash up.

A distinction in the topic should me made here regarding 1) Desecration of the Qur’an as an act in itself and 2) Desecration of the Qur’an as an act that has consequences in the real world. Touching on (2), Like a wise poster here mentioned, he would rather our military not engage in the desecration of the Qur’an, although he might not find anything wrong with it generally. If our military is desecrating the Qur’an, what message does that send to Muslims? What message does that send about this war? What kind of reaction do you think you will get from a largely uneducated group (as far as the ones who are militant)?

In any event, it is in my opinion the ultimate act of disrespect to a belief system. Remember, that unlike many of us, there are people in the world who actually believe that within the book are God’s spoken word and they hold this in great value. This is a matter of being diplomatic in our “relationship” with the Mid East (which is where most of Muslim radicalism is rooted) moreso than a matter of liberty. The military’s desecration of the Qur’an is a great new recruiting tool for terorists all over who have another point to claim the U.S.’ aggression toward Islam (not my interpretation, just relating how a terrorist recruiter might appeal to young impressionable Muslim men) This, for those who can not draw a consequence from this, will cost lives, American soldiers, Muslim civilians, and negatively affects global politics and casts much doubt on the U.S. as impartial to Islam in their intercession with military aggression, institution rearranging (by force), and revolution encouraging in “Muslim countries.” (The reason for quoting “Muslim countries” is because the gov’ts are hypocritical, led by often secular actors) This means more aggression against the U.S., more war, more misconceptions…war mongerers on both sides win. Give a little more consideration to the issue of desecration of the Qur’an by anyone representing an American official entity. Use some sense dullards.

So when some of you say “I don’t see what the big deal is about the military desecrating the Qur’an…it’s just paper blah blah blah” I encourage you to get your HEADS out of your ass, not the Qur’an.

“I just got here and you’re talkin’ about bananas.”

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TheAdlerian
Thinker

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 257

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:13 am Post subject:

Thanks, but I have read much of the Koran and have found everything that Iâ€™m talking about. Their book of laws has a bunch of heinous things in it too.

There is an online Koran and if you type in words such as slave and friend you can find out some interesting things.

It does say that you should kill your neighbors if they arenâ€™t Islamic and somehow offend you. It does say that you should not kill Islamic people, which generally implies the opposite.

Meanwhile, it does say that god offered the Koran to all the worldâ€™s people and only the true believers were moral enough to take it. Thus, non-Islamic people are immoral and unclean.

The Jews and even the Zoroastrians believe something similar.

An Islamic guy I knew got shot and his non Islamic sister and I were not allowed in the temple for this same reason.

NBC had a recent news cast on, where a reporter went to talk with a holy man in Saudi Arabia. The American could not touch him and he was not allowed in his house.

If one would like the quickie education go and rent Hidalgo with Viggo Mortenson.

Anyway, Islam is one of the most bigoted religions on the planet. Their role model was a psychotic killer, so what can be expected.

Just today on PBS I watched a doc about honor killing in Pakistan. The story was about a young man that was ordered to shoot his mom by the local council because she was violating Islamic law. Her crime was staying out too late selling crafts in the market place. Apparently, that is considered whorish.

Her son was ambivalent about the whole thing and said that he had warned her to stay home and that the killing was part of his culture. Nice culture. Thousands of these murders happen each year. The twisted thing is, is that they are for honor. In my book honor is not killing your mom or daughter.

This story is why it is important to poop on things holy. Itâ€™s not about the information. If we get that, well great. The pooping is to make guys that arenâ€™t affected by killing their mom affected. You have to attack their core values and make them look like shit.

People that can kill their mom can trash a city or the whole planet all in the name of some bullshit god.

Nietzsche was completely on target about religion.

We transformed Japan and we can do it with the middle east.

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AVICENNA A.D.

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 48
Location: UCLA
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:38 am Post subject:

You have the basic disease of lack of critical thinking. First, if you wish to make these accusations in the Qur’an, give your citation. Second, you refer to an online Qur’an. I would direct you toward the Yusef Ali translation which is what most Mulims subscribe to. I can find many idiotic Islamic websites myself. But I believe in real investigations. Second, there being an honor killing ruled by a fundamentalist does not draw the conclusion that Islam prescribes such actions. There is a difference between fundamentalism and real interpretations by real impartial scholars.

Quote:

An Islamic guy I knew got shot and his non Islamic sister and I were not allowed in the temple for this same reason.

First, its “a Muslim guy.” If you’ve read the Qur’an, why are you calling people who believe in Islam “Islamic.” They are Muslims. The word Muslim is used in the Qur’an. You would’ve picked this up if you really did read it. Second, what the @#*! are you talking about? I will give you a pass and not decide you’re an idiot by giving you the perceived benefit that English is not your first language. Through your retarded speaking, I think you’re saying non Muslims were not allowed in a mosque somewhere? I don’t know where you live but you will be welcomed with full hospitality at any regular mosque anywhere I know of. Tell me your city and I’ll find you a mosque. And if you want me to believe you were not let into a mosque because you’re not Muslim, tell me which mosque it is. I’ll call them personally, get to the bottom of it, and make sure they are condemned by the Masjid council of the U.S. But I don’t believe that happened.

Quote:

NBC had a recent news cast on, where a reporter went to talk with a holy man in Saudi Arabia. The American could not touch him and he was not allowed in his house.
If one would like the quickie education go and rent Hidalgo with Viggo Mortenson.

Oh yeah, well I saw this Christian guy one time, he was on tv and stuff and he was doing bad stuff and so his book is like real evil and stuff…
I take back the benefit of a non native English speaker…you’re a blithering dullard.

Quote:

In my book honor is not killing your mom or daughter.

Not the Qur’an either.

Quote:

We transformed Japan and we can do it with the middle east.

Some kind of crusader or what?

“I just got here and you’re talkin’ about bananas.”

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TheAdlerian
Thinker

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 257

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:44 pm Post subject:

Actually, I have pretty good critical thinking skills, but then how would I know that if I didn’t? If you had good critical thinking skills you would be an atheist, so there.

Seriously though, how have I seen and read what you haven’t? Iâ€™m not trying to be funny here.

I used to work in a prison. There were many Islamic people in the prison and they were frequently trying to start trouble. Not that this group represents average Muslims, but I can see how the religion inspires troubled thinking.

Anyway, I wanted to make friends and would help them whenever I could. I thought that I was helping these people by copying the Koran (page by page) on a copying machine, as they were having trouble getting new ones with Arabic writing. The book was half English and half Arabic. In the act of copying the book I ended up reading a lot of it. That is when I noticed many of the things in it.

I even got an inmate to expose literature that was going around detailing what type of Americans that it is ok to kill. There was also a detailed description of why the 911 attack was not immoral, even though women and children were killed. That was because in war it was ok for Muslims to use catapults. Catapults could not be aimed and if women and children were in the way that was unfortunate. The airplanes were likened to the catapult projectile.

Anyway, all of this made me buy a Koran and even read up on it online.

Interestingly, the inmates in the prison were planning some kind of violence as they had stashed homemade knives in the temple. Security busted them thanks to my bit of investigative work.

The story of Mohamed is pretty clear.
anwary-islam.com/prophet-story/muh.htm

The guy most likely had a psychotic break stress induced from an unfortunate life of constant turmoil. Frankly, I believe that the same thing happened to Jesus, if indeed he was real at all. Anyway, I have met many people that begin seeing and hearing, sometimes very positive messages that usually involve their own importance, after a series of traumatic events. Thatâ€™s not so bad until he started killing people for disagreeing with him.

So, the religion has a role model that killed people that disagreed with his delusional ideas. That sets up all of his followers to do the same.

Meanwhile, I do not think that Mohamed was evil. It just sounds like he lost his mind.

Check out these references: hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html

Friends:

[3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
[3.118] O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

This is pretty clear, and it speaks to Islamic countries ability to relate to non-Islamic countries. On an individual basis Iâ€™m sure that this does not amount to much, but as Islamic policy I bet it does.

Killing:
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.
[4.93] And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.
[17.33] And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

Killing and smiting necks, thatâ€™s the theme. Itâ€™s ok to kill, as long as they are not your own people. Do all Muslims do it? No! However, it is policy.

Slaves:

[4.92] And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a convenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
[24.33] And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world’s life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Slaves! Itâ€™s still happening in the Sudan and I believe the United Arab Emirates. This is not some ancient history we are talking about itâ€™s active.

Bigotry:

[2.221] And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

Can I marry your sister?
â€œHey, what are you doing with that sword?â€
â€œOuch!â€

These kind of ideas indicate that others are not good enough to marry into your families. The implication is that â€œinfidelsâ€ arenâ€™t good enough. Meanwhile, it makes sure that you remain a tight little economic group.

So, that is the information that I have gotten from both the printed word and an online document. I have told you how and why I got interested in the book. I will say that in regard to how Muslims are supposed to treat other Muslims, for however bigoted that might be, the morals are good. Itâ€™s just too bad that they seem to be only for Muslims.

Your post: Tell me your city and I’ll find you a mosque. And if you want me to believe you were not let into a mosque because you’re not Muslim, tell me which mosque it is.

Based on your tone I would not tell you where I lived for a million dollars and you can be sure that I would NOT report to some mosque with complaints. Please hear and visualize me laughing, falling out of my chair, and rolling on the floor.

Your post: Oh yeah, well I saw this Christian guy one time, he was on TV and stuff and he was doing bad stuff and so his book is like real evil and stuff…
I take back the benefit of a non native English speaker…you’re a blithering dullard.

Sure live in denial if you like. That is what you have been taught. However, the story went on for an hour and that was one section of it. Mostly it was about the prince in Saudi Arabia, who in my opinion seemed like a very nice person interested in progress. He was contrasted against the Iman who was greatly against the princeâ€™s attempts to change values.

Your post: Some kind of crusader or what?

The world is getting smaller due to travel and the media. There is no room on Earth for tribal religions that do not accept outsiders as equals. Such religions must be eliminated or turned into hobbies if we are to have world peace, to any degree.

Have fun!

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AVICENNA A.D.

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 48
Location: UCLA
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject:

AVICENNA:
Quote:

Tell me your city and I’ll find you a mosque. And if you want me to believe you were not let into a mosque because you’re not Muslim, tell me which mosque it is.

Alderian:
Quote:

Based on your tone I would not tell you where I lived for a million dollars and you can be sure that I would NOT report to some mosque with complaints.

Full of shit. Your mosque story is bullshit, you know it. I asked you to tell me which mosque and I’ll get to the bottom of it and have them exposed by the Muslim community as having commited injustice to you. Mosques allow everyone. But there are many different sects, maybe you went to a NOI mosque or something. Similarly, the Qur’an has many versions. Read the Yusef Ali translation. Prisoners in jail are visited by Muslim groups who give them Qur’an’s as I’m sure you can testify, they might be using the Shaikh Ibn Taymiyyah tradition I suspect. The issue is more complex than you would like it to be.

Your quotes from the Qur’an were revealed in the contexts respective to their time. After the Muslims fled persecution, were granted asylum in a Christian ruled land, then again faced extermination, they were permitted to defend with a revelation. The quotes you have are all in context. There should be footnotes explaining each situation. You are doing what the terrorists do to recruit: they take Qur’anic quotes out in isolation, free from context, charge that they are literal, and get people to join up. You are doing the same. You are equating yourself with war mongerers. The cat in the hat is more complex than that, much more, the Qur’an, the Bible for that matter, etc. It takes some real studying with a teacher for you to understand these things. Or, as I said, get the Yusef Ali translation which is what most Muslims read, it has footnotes for everything.

Quote:

There is no room on Earth for tribal religions that do not accept outsiders as equals. Such religions must be eliminated or turned into hobbies if we are to have world peace, to any degree.

Then stop doing what the war mongering Muslim fundamentalists are doing and the war mongering Christian fundamentalist groups. You’re on that side of the cause, promoting intolerance for Islam based on your very little experience in interpretation, the corresponding history to each ayah or surah.

But again, I will take the issue up with that mosque experience you had, I don’t need your info. jerk off, just the mosque. But, again, I think you’re full of it. You want to equate me with terrorists and tell me you’re afraid to tell me where you live. What a pansy. You know its because your story was made up, otherwise, you would be happy that I would take the problem up for you and let you know the results.

aspacia · June 7, 2005, 12:47am

I can be nasty and strident It is intentional.

In any case, I tried to reply to your post earlier and lost the link. Here are two valid sites for you to peruse:
usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html
usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html

I should be back day after tomorrow as I have to take my syllabus and handouts to campus in time for the summer session, and I must go visit my mother. It has been two weeks and my father died in late April.

thirst4metal · June 7, 2005, 12:53am

HELL(O) F(R)IEND(S)

Aspacia, you have my condolences about your father. Good luck, sage trip, and take care.

Regards,

THIRST

aspacia · June 7, 2005, 1:36am

Bless you pea picken heart. How sweet. It was my dad’s time to go and he had been suffering for at least five years. He does not hurt anymore. I really miss the old curmudgeon, he had wonderful Grandfather stories regarding the Charge of San Juan Hill, Depression Era and WWII. Evidently, Grandpa Tony made great homemade brew and red wine. I do miss him, but again, he does not hurt anymore.

Now, I can avoid my mother. I even have a job offer in Nevada. Wish me luck, and Saint Patterson is chomping at the bit to leave So. Cal.

AVICENNA_A.D · June 7, 2005, 3:30am

Wow, you got some rage in you lady.

Semi polite?! You call me a fanatic, you tell me you would not let me on your property, that I would not be welcome among your circle of friends, that I am a stupid child, that I don’t understand what I’m talking about, you allude to me being a terrorist who will target and attack you, and so on… You call this semi-polite? Shows how you treat people.

Which theologians?

Aspacia, let me make myself clear once and for all. The problem is not the quotes you find, it is the interpretation that is of issue here. You take the quotes as literal and free from context, history, etc. I am urging you that to do so is a mistake. I encouraged you to get Yusef Ali’s translation for a start, then talk to a scholar at the Islamic Center of Southern California.

Geez lady, gimme a break. How is this a propaganda site? It does not fit YOUR view of Islam as a terrorist religion so I guess to you its propaganda. Aspacia, please, come to grips with yourself, Islam is not a terrorist religion. You refuse to educate yourself because your knowledge on Islam corresponds with what you think about Islam at the moment. We can’t have them shattered by learning that Islam is not what you think. Come on, go learn the truth! Don’t come up with these bogus reasons not to correspond with a scholar with “I’ll be targeted.” Who are you fooling?

What? Did you run this site by the “grand council of scholars on websites” or something? How did you formulate that islamicity.com is not considered a valid edu site by scholars? And which scholars would make a decision like this? Islamic scholars? Christian scholars? Zionist scholars? History? Near Eastern Languages and Cultures? Your scholar buddies? You come up with the most bogus charges.

AVICENNA:

Aspacia:

What I stated was deductively correct. The views you propogate about Islam are the same terrorists/war mongerers use to inflame the masses of the Muslim world, incite hate, cause destruction, do evil, and cause conflict between the U.S. and the Muslim people. Muslim fundamentalists teach precisely what you accuse Islam for doing, and give an interpretation more or less like yours. Take each ayah out of context, look at it in isolation, take it as literal, and there you have it…Islam. Therefore, I would further charge that you promote the cause of Osama bin-Laden and Muslim fundamentalists, war mongerers on both sides, and all those who have an interest in further conflict, hate, and misunderstanding between Muslims and the peoples of the West.

Wow…And you claim to be a scholar? Sure thing cookie. For those of you who do not know what the last two words in her post are, she cursed my mother in probably the most disrespectful thing one can say in Arabic. But to the issue, please do reply with how your interpretation of Islam (in scope of interpreting quotes from the Qur’an and hadith) are different from bin-Laden’s and the extreme Wahhabi wing. They are not, the knowledge is public for anyone who wants to see, yes, even on the internet which you so passionately indebt your “scholarship.”

I do not intend to move you in such an undignifying manner which you have shown here today. It is not my intention to make your life difficult. If nothing else, you should understand that you have a phobia to Muslims:

**parentheses added by AVICENNA

“Targeted?” What are you saying lady? You fear Muslims mainly because you’re on the internet all day reading hate sites and then go to teach elementary school. Get out in the world, go to the mosque, I promise you will be treated well, much less “targeted.” Who are the targeted ones in America? You don’t see Muslim Americans trying to kill Jews here. The Islamic Center in Culver City was almost bombed by Jewish terrorists headed by Irv Rubin (JDL-Jewish Defense League), and Congressman Issa’s office was targeted as well because he is Arab. Funny thing is, he’s not even Muslim, he’s Christian, in fact his last name (Issa) means Jesus in Arabic. Were it not for the FBI preventing the bombing, many innocent Muslim mosque goers for Friday prayer would’ve been killed while worshipping God. Subsequently, Irv Rubin killed himself while awaiting trial in prison. JDL is still up and running though.

Aspacia, serve the cause of peace, not destruction and war. Do not spread the ideologies of terrorists and war mongerers or the Christian extreme fundamentalist right, looking for a new crusade. Know what you are doing with your propaganda, it is a serious issue. But if you are genuine in your conclusions, then be enlightened, go to the Islamic Center of Southern California. If you wish, I will make an appointment for you with a good scholar. You will be treated with repsect and appreciation for having the decency of being genuinely concerned with understanding the meaning of these hadiths, ayah’s etc.

But this is most insignificant in light of the loss of your father. I will du’a (pray) for his admission to paradise (if there is one). And I say to you Aspacia: Asalam wa Alaikum, peace be upon you.

scythekain · June 7, 2005, 7:05pm

I think aspacia makes a good point, see T4M’s new thread and answer those questions.

Would you go to a pro-christian site and trust information from it?

Would you go to a pro-judaist site and trust information from it?

Would you go to a pro-Al qaeda site and trust the information there?

No you would call these “propaganda” sites. Really that’s what they all are.

the truth in religion and spirituality, is subjective… if you take it objectively though you can answer on of the questions I posted in the other thread…

How is the Quran more truthful than any other holy book from other religions?

AVICENNA_A.D · June 7, 2005, 7:35pm

Propaganda is to intentionally mislead. The authentic views of Islam need not be right, or true, however, they are expressed with sincerity on site x for example. Therefore, the site is not engaged in propaganda, since there is no malicious intent to mislead in light of acknowledged facts to the contrary. Because a source is “pro” something, does not necessarily draw the conclusion that it promotes propaganda.

I did not claim that it was. What I meant when saying “go learn the truth” is for Aspacia to learn the truth of the views of Islam. The propositions of Islam have truth value, true or false. I am not referring to this part yet. Just to learn what views Islam really holds before evaluation of them.

scythekain · June 7, 2005, 8:13pm

you didn’t sufficiently answer my first question. and I disagree… if a site/publication prints in favor of something they are not going to tell you about the seedy underbelly that is also the truth.

So therefore it is not a fair and balanced view of whatever it is that you are looking at.

You need to find a disinterested third party that can look at all sects of islam, christianity, judaism, etc seperately and tell you the percentage of violence per the percentage of non violence.

as far as the quotes go? you can find quotes to justify killing, slavery, and just about anything else in the Bible and the Quran so I don’t think that’s a valid counter point.

as far as the percentages go? I think as loud and obnoxious as TheAdlerian and Aspacia can be they are correct that Islam nations tend to have a greater percentage of unjustified violence.

Saudi Arabia will stone women who have been raped because she is considered unfaithful.

(of course this sort of action is justified in the bible, if no one heard the women scream for help.)

And I still say that the truth of anything is subjective on what the person telling you the “truth” is willing to reveal or not.

Everything has a seamy underbelly, do you think when you go to a pro-christian site their going to mention the crusades?

The same way an Islam site isn’t going to mention all the negative things that happen in various sects of Islam. It is trying to attract converts.

As far as intentionally misleading people? what do you think these sites are doing when they are not telling you the whole truth and history of their organization?

aspacia · June 8, 2005, 4:08am

AVICENNA A.D.:

Wow, you got some rage in you lady.

to this point I have been semi polite with you

Semi polite?! You call me a fanatic, you tell me you would not let me on your property, that I would not be welcome among your circle of friends, that I am a stupid child, that I don’t understand what I’m talking about, you allude to me being a terrorist who will target and attack you, and so on… You call this semi-polite? Shows how you treat people.

Many more nasty adjectives are coming to my mind at the moment. Remember, I am an English and History person. No, my friends and family dislike individuals who speak in absolutes, well except my mother, but she is religious and we have not been on good terms for twenty years.

I listen to the “expert theologians to a point” but most of it is bs to fill the tithe.

My rhetoric shows my disregard for you, you silly little boy.

Which theologians?

Do you disagree that Islamic theologians believe that Qur’anic/Sharia law stipulates that God’s law supercedes man’s laws? BTW: You made a big mistake telling me to go to the library. I had to have my summer school syllabus and hand outs ready for class Monday and the librarian knows me and allowed me to do research today as the library was closed. What a goldmine. By the way, I again asked regarding books as we know them eventually becoming defunct and will be on line. “Oh, yes, this is already occuring and is supported by environmental groups.” Chuckle, this will be nice as researchers can just do the ctrl f click to find key words.

I have provided valid source from a USC edu site and you reject this site.

Aspacia, let me make myself clear once and for all. The problem is not the quotes you find, it is the interpretation that is of issue here. You take the quotes as literal and free from context, history, etc.

No, I have a fairly good idea regarding Middle-Eastern history and have studied it. My point is, that many of the Medieval laws are still used. I did find one nice one regarding how a thousand years ago women could make their husbands pay for domestic help. aspacia smiled regarding that one. Currently, both my other half and I share both house, yard and pool work. I favor egalitarainism. Also, I do realize that polygamy was allowed because of the many widows during Mohammed’s time, and he wanted them to be cared for. But I will later discuss Sharia law, wow, some kickers in this. What pisses me off is Islamic groups like CAIR trying to implement these laws, albeit into their communities, into our secular land.

I am urging you that to do so is a mistake. I encouraged you to get Yusef Ali’s translation for a start, then talk to a scholar at the Islamic Center of Southern California.

The fact that you recommend Ali discredits him in my eyes. I hope he does not preach in absolutes as you do. Actually, this is where you probably learned this totalitarian tone of voice.

I have been perusing your Islam City site. This is a propaganda site

Geez lady, gimme a break.

Sure, Crack across your skull may help your thought process.

How is this a propaganda site? It does not fit YOUR view of Islam as a terrorist religion so I guess to you its propaganda.

I perused this site and found it as wanting as many of the Fundamentalist Christian sites. I will not post them as they are not worth anyone’s time. In any case, this site promotes its view of Islam, and does not include the many interpretations of Islam.

Aspacia, please, come to grips with yourself, Islam is not a terrorist religion.

This is terroism in my book. Again, I reject your site as a proselytizing site. This quote does come from a USC edu site. I trust educational sites as they are very discerning regarding what material goes into their web links. You probably did not read the Atlantic Monthly article regarding the Qur’an did you. You discard all the sites I provide, and you will probably discard all the literature I provide as it will not fit your perception of Islam.

"Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah.”
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle was asked, “What is the best deed?” He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, “To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah’s Cause.”

You refuse to educate yourself because your knowledge on Islam corresponds with what you think about Islam at the moment.

No I took two classes in Middle-Eastern history. The required texts were The Middle East in World Affairs; fourth edition, by George Lenczowski, and The Middle East; A History by Sydney Nettleton Fisher and William Ochsenwald. I did not think too much regarding Islam until 2004, as I thought is was just another religion similar the Christianity. Then a few peers, other educators, tipped me off, and I started to dig.

We can’t have them shattered by learning that Islam is not what you think. Come on, go learn the truth! Don’t come up with these bogus reasons not to correspond with a scholar with “I’ll be targeted.” Who are you fooling?

No way, I will correspond via email. And the facts are the facts. The Sharia is what most Muslims believe should be the law. Ask your buddies.

not considered a valid edu site used by scholars

What? Did you run this site by the “grand council of scholars on websites” or something? How did you formulate that islamicity.com is not considered a valid edu site by scholars?

I will only rely on this site to provide access to a valid edu site. I take a similar stance with all faiths.

AVICENNA:

What the issue is, is what these quotes mean, and how they are to be applied to the world. You gave your opinion, and you are in the same boat as bin-Laden and the extreme wing of the Wahhabi movement that takes these quotes as literal and free from context.

Aspacia:

Okay, WAR IT IS YOU NASTY PIECE OF WORK.

I listen to many various scholarly interpretations to try to make sense of ancient Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Some make sense, much does not.

Then, I look at the words, and really analyze what is meant. bin-Laden uses religion for a secular power grab. He wants to overthrow the house of Saud. Then you compare me to this piece of shit

What I stated was deductively correct.

Can you even define what is inductive and deductive reasoning? Quick, run to the web or a dictionary for a definition

The views you propogate about Islam are the same terrorists/war mongerers use to inflame the masses of the Muslim world, incite hate, cause destruction, do evil, and cause conflict between the U.S. and the Muslim people. Muslim fundamentalists teach precisely what you accuse Islam for doing, and give an interpretation more or less like yours. Take each ayah out of context, look at it in isolation, take it as literal, and there you have it…Islam. Therefore, I would further charge that you promote the cause of Osama bin-Laden and Muslim fundamentalists, war mongerers on both sides, and all those who have an interest in further conflict, hate, and misunderstanding between Muslims and the peoples of the West.

And you call me illogical, you piece of filth. I provided direct quotes from the hadiths and you compare me to that piece of shit.

I have asked scholars regarding the hadiths and Qu’ran. I sent a query to your Islam city regarding drugs. Hell, I was expecting a scholarly responce. Similar to other Islamic sites I have queried, the response was from a layman, (of course not a woman) who really had little information and did not completely respond to my question. Go to the site and check the forum regarding questions. My name is there, and you will see what I mean.

You compared me to bin Laden, who is probably sitting in a cave smoking dope at this very moment. This is similar to comparing me to Hitler. My parents fought Hitler and I despise the man. I despise all bigotry, especially, bigotted religions that allow for the murder of Muslim converting to another faith, forbidding marraige to others except monothesists. The list is huge. I will go into Islamic law in a bit. Chuckle, I have only perused two books and have found an abundance of information that scholars cannot explain away.

Tell you what, you take my claims regarding Islamic law and have one of your buddies explain the laws away, okay. If these laws are no longer relevant, I would like to see your Islamic buddies at the center work to have these laws ABOLISHED You and I know they will not.

Sure did, she raised a very nasty piece of filth

The point is that most Muslim’s believe in medieval sharia law and Qu’ranic law as God’s direct transmission to Mohammed. Many also claim that imam decisions are based on God transmitting the information to the iman.

You haven’t that much power. Actually, you just gave me an excuse to do what I love doing research. My, Oh, My

Listen, I decide what I should or should not do, NOT YOU! GET IT. You speak in absolutes. I have explained numerous times I have a phobia against all faiths as they all show violent and misogynistic tendencies.

**parentheses added by AVICENNA

I am a woman, lady is generally a term used for the pedestal matron of Victorian England. A class in feminism might help. Chuckle, I took a class in Women in America, and WOMAN from Iran, (refugee, her uncle was killed by the new government) . A devout Muslim. I typed student essays for $ and she hired me, came to my home, and worked on her essays and I freely gave her my transcribed class notes, and explained many of our terms to her. (I taped lectures and typed them up verbatim). Do you want to know what conclusions she came to? She revolted against Sharia law, and started protesting. We were only acquaintances, and I do not know what happed with her, but she did revolt against much in Islam No, I did not prompt this, the teacher just laid out the fact regarding gender issues in the USA.

Again, I periodically sub. in elementary, and high schools for extra change. Check around, it pays from $95.00 - $150 daily, for five hours of babysitting. This is not my main gig, as I teach college.

No, I peruse valid academic site and many “Arab” U.S., UK, European, and Israeli medis sources. I was very critical of the Northeastern Intelligence media source, until I found the NATO uses them. I though they were totally bogus, but perhaps not. Yes, I peruse AMIN, MEMRI, Arutz Sheva, Haaretz, BBC, and many others. I also am a casual reader, Cromwell, Grimes, Ludlum, etc. I am on vacation, have enjoyed many champagne brunches, nice restaurants with friends and family (ten or more at a time) during this time, swim and go to the gym. I am on vacation, and it is only me and my other half at home, and he works in private industry and does not have as many vacation days as I do, so there is not much mess and I can indulge in research and understanding.

Hum, how about Ireland, Scotland, Wales, France, Germany, Oregon, Washington, Canada, England, Wales. Me mum is a limey and we have traveled extensively.

NO, neither will I go to a church or temple except for funerals or wedding bar and bat mitzvahs. Look, I have had all the religious bs while growing up. I use to win Bibles as a child in the Episcopal/Anglican church. I am the last person that will accept any faith. GET IT???

No, I have read the many articles regarding the cheering on 9/11 in US mosques. I have read regarding the nasty antiJew, antiUS mosques sermons. At this moment CAIR is being closely investigated and many of their member are being nailed.

I have a few nasty political rants regarding that weenie Issa, but this is a religion board.

Yes I know regarding Rubin, I also know regarding the three Muslim’s, one, an exprofessor up on terrorism charges in Florida.

I realize all groups have extremists. We have our Rudolphs, Tim McVey, Jim Jones and his Koolaid drinkers, the Branch Davidians, etc. , so do Jews and Muslims. Yes, I am well aware of the settlers poisoning wells, and attacking Arab farmers, but I am well aware of the many terrorist attacks agains Israeli day care centers and school buses, they target children and all Israelis are legitimate targets to the Arabs.

The point is the most Muslims believe in Sharia and Qur’anic law. I will start a new thread discussing Sharia law.

Sharia law does not promote peace and tolerance.

I am not a Christian. How many times do I have to say this. Also, I will do as I please, not what you say. Typical mindset of many males who follow Islam telling others what to do. YOU DO NOT PAY MY BILLS, YOU HAVE NO SAY IN WHAT I DO. HELL, MY OTHER HALF WOULD NOT EVEN BE STUPID ENOUGH TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO.

I am simply repeating Islamic religious texts. If it is propaganda, it is Islamic propaganda.

Oh, yes, like I have had many theologions try and explain the St. Augusine crap against Jews, or Martin Luther’s crap against Jews when he could not convert them.

LOL, aspacia rolls of the floor laughing. Oh, shit, I just scared the old puddy tat again.

Have them email their responses to the hadiths, Qu’ran and Sharia law, this will suffice. I would also like their names, academic degrees, (i.e. their credentials) as any bozo can make claims on a web site.

My father was an atheist. He does not hurt anymore. You prayers will not help him gain entry into heaven. Regardless of his atheism, he was a much better parent than most religious folks, and a better human being than you. I am all for the good deeds over religious bs. He would go to mom’s church, put in a slide and swingset on the rather large church grounds, poured cement, innstalled a sprinkling system and light for the church parking lot. Chuckle, one day Father David walked out as my dad was busting his ass working for the church and asked “Well Les, when am I going to see you in church.” Dad stood up, looked Father David in the eye and said “You will see me in church after I see you on your hands and knees pouring cement like I am doing now.” Father David walked back in the church and never asked again. I basically have my father’s attitude, but have just read far more than he did regarding faith and society.

It is 9:00, and I rise at 5, hence this is probably full of goofs.

Ben, a request for a spell check.

aspacia · June 8, 2005, 4:16am

Thanks scythekain,

I will be posting Sharia law tomorrow, after I fix my syllabus, I messed the dates up.

Most of Islamic theologians agree that Sharia law superceded secular law, the laws of secular society.

Sorry for my outrage, but to be compared to that piece is filth bin laden really ticks me off. My apology is not directed to Mr. A.D. as I mean evey nasty word I say to him