The Gifts of the Spirit

Bob and LA,

Wow, you guys just don’t seem to understand…

JT

The glaring truth that the three of you may understand that I have apparently underestimated is the subtle transvestite influence. LA wrote:

I have begun a full scale investigation into the matter and I can assure you I will not be taken off guard again.

Ear of heart, falls most deaf,
Eye of mind, blindest yet,
Voice of man, hindered breath,
Shadowed knowledge, as without depth,
Brings forth certainly, mankinds death.

Perhaps now my kin will see what it was that I spoke of privately.

Bob, I don’t know you, and could spend an eternity disagreeing with you, and forever respecting the breadth of your heart and courage.

Well done. kin.

Hello Mastriani,

Welcome back! Although there may be more profitable threads…

JT

Hi Bob

I’m curious: What does it mean to “obey God” What do you mean by becoming what we have been created to be?

What has allowed you to remain out of chaos?

Does this community have a name?

It seems so simple. Why do you believe it isn’t in practice yet?

Hi Angel,

The “scapegoat effect” had a long tradition and Israel was always given a method to give up their best as an offering for their transgressions, until the Temple was finally destroyed. It isn’t surprising for Jewish followers of Jesus to see him in this light, whether or not his death coincided with Passah or not. The ultimate sacrifice is the best of us. There is also a human part of this too, portrayed in the struggle at Gethsemane, seeking the strength to surrender out of love towards those who might have shouted “crucify him!” Knowing that the greater goal is more important than the life of one. Jesus didn’t fall into this situation, but walked into it, aware of what it could mean.

I think that he reached times in his ministry, when he lacked physical strength and when he felt himself being drained of the spiritual inspiration that drove him on. It is at times like these that those who are concerned for the physical welfare may become a temptation for those called to go beyond the physical borders. Determination, even inspired determination, can fall on a slippery slope. That is why Jesus often stepped back to reflect and gain an introspective view – and we are advised to do so as well.

Yes, this potential of being a Christ, a redeemer for others, is something that awaits realisation. It is something that is given to us and waits for us to use it. Many of us are too bound by society to step out and be what we could be, but in a community of people conspiring to fly beneath the radar of accepted levels of charity, we might grow braver. This is where the gifts of the spirit are needed to build rather than destroy, to feed, to nurse, to heal, to encourage, to give directions and to lead. The opposition is greater than people think, which is why we must go to those who want to see us and leave others behind.

The Christ-figure however, is the target of extremism. That is why those who find themselves called must make a decision, and it can make us sweat blood and tears. This figure is in more than one way the “suffering servant”, because he takes the blows that were meant for all of us, not just the ones we have “deserved” - meaning having deserved more than the one who has finally suffered. The Christ-figure is the Martyr, the one who goes like a lamb to the slaughter.

Amen

Hi Mastriani,

Thanks for the encouragement, perhaps we wouldn’t disagree as much as you think…

Shalom

Hi Nick,

I’m confused, you know that I am quoting Acts 5:29 of course? Peter is cited as the mouthpiece and it is only Gamaliel who comes to the rescue - and saves them from being stoned like Stephen. Just as then those Apostles were not prepared to be silenced, so too should the church be bold enough to follow the example set in scripture and walk in the Spirit.

Genesis 1:27 “And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.”
Genesis 5:1 “In the day of God’s preparing man, in the likeness of God He hath made him…”
John 10:34 “Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?”

We may be “fallen gods” but our destiny is to be heirs. The “Sons of God” must go on a mystical return journey to receive that status back again, but the uniqueness of humankind is what fuels this hope. The intercourse of the Spirit with our spirit is still as ephemeral as a vision or a dream, like a bright star at night that fades with the daylight, leaving us waiting and yearning for the sight again. But such visions or insights waken our senses to the “everyday miracles” of life and help our empathy discern the needs of our fellow man. I believe that the gifts of the Spirit help us along that road towards our destiny.

Some uncanny force that has always pulled me back, or pushed me into a situation that turned out good. Looking back, I have been blessed amongst turmoil, even though I wasn’t always “out of” chaos, I was somehow not part of it and was fortunate to be able to gain some kind of orderly path. I have been through all kinds of chaos, you wouldn’t believe how much. I see that same kind of condition threatening us all, our society, our families and friends, our communities and I do my best to help avoid it.

My community is called “Evangelische Kirchengemeinde Dortmund-Schüren” - what is yours called?

It is the trappings of society in reasonably wealthy countries that makes people unable to concentrate on those things that are enduringly good for them.

Shalom

Hi Bob

Quite honestly I don’t believe we know what this means. I know I don’t. consider how Meister Eckhart describes it:

I can sense the truth in this but know it is beyond me so don’t pretend it and willing to admit my nothingness in front of it. I know this bugs the hell out of most as it used to bug the hell out of me but I do believe he is right and an essential message of Christianity. Of course a lot of good works can be very beneficial for many but Meister Eckhart is speaking of something very profound and beyond good works.

I’m even cautious about commenting on this. For me it is good just to realize how far I’m from this change of being to something from nothing.

True, but as fallen gods having devolved from inner unity into diversity or plurality, we are nothing. How to become “Sons of God”? I don’t believe it is from doing this or that but the inner change from plurality into unity. This is the idea of Christian re-birth for me which is reclaiming what was lost by the conscious inner change of psychological plurality into unity from the energy of the Holy Spirit.

I see it differently. I believe it is the collective level of man’s being that determines the nature and trappings of society and its effects on an individual.

I remember participating with others on an experiment regarding love. The idea was to take an insect or plant that is naturally repulsive to me and try to love it. It is one of God’s creatures. How can I suffer its presence, allow its being to touch mine without recoiling? I’ve always disliked those large house centipedes so I caught one and placed it in a bowl it couldn’t crawl out of. the idea was to see how close I could get to it and remain open to it. I experienced how difficult it was. If it was so hard to become open to a centipede, how much more difficult it is it to be open to another that is much more complex and threatening. It became easy for me to see from this how this idea of love is exaggerated. We speak of putting ourselves in the position of another but in reality we must consciously learn to do it. The quality of love the great teachings refer to is I believe much deeper than we normally believe.

This is what a real esoteric church does. It is one thing to speak of love but how do we learn to love. I’ve learned to see how far I am from all but conditioned selective love and the necessity of consciousness to broaden my ability leading to conscious love. But even just this is a step in the right direction since it is respected more and not used as cheaply as it normally is.

I’d prefer being wrong but I believe that since we are collectively what we are, life will continue as it is complete with its cycles of war and peace. The chances are for the individuals willing to make the conscious efforts to work on their being. Otherwise, since tomorrow is made of the same stuff of today, everything will be the same adapting in appearance to the influences from life’s cycles.

Hi Nick,

I’ll answer Meister Eckhart, seeing as you have used him to address me

Couldn’t agree more. It is a matter of purity and simplicity, but how do we become pure and simple? I think that your inability to contemplate these words would not be in keeping with what the Meister intended. He wouldn’t have wanted you to be stricken with palsy, but sensitive to the dangers that your state of “fallenness” presents. The Meister was a spiritual counsellor, driven by love for the lost souls caught up in the evils of his age. He wanted people to become free, not bind them.

A balance must stand free to work effectively and that is what Meister Eckhart’s words attempt to achieve. The more surrounding garbage inhibits this, the less clarity we achieve. The balance of works and sins may not be a matter of salvation, but the metaphor of the balance helps us realise that there is more we could do to outweigh the sin within us, and to do that, we need purity and simplicity in our search for God.

This is very much the impression I get in my job. I followed the call to service and was content with that, not having had the trappings of financial security. It soon became apparent that people relied on me to show the way, sort the problems and organise things, so I rose in the hierarchy. Soon after that I was asked to stand in for my Care Manager, who became seriously ill. I seemed to manage that too and was pushed in the direction of managerial qualifications and finally I became a Care-Manager. Since then, however, it is becoming more and more difficult to free myself of the general cluttering and I feel myself under pressure or constraint – a sure sign that I am being worked.

That is one of the reasons why the Mystics have appealed to me, giving me answers when I have sought them, guiding me to that “inner chamber” where I can find peace and inspiration, balance and perspective. Sometimes it is in reading or prayer, sometimes it is through so-called “menial tasks” like sweeping a large floor, sorting paper or even in driving. Sometimes it is in finding a large open space, especially at weekends, where the wind and the sun can help the pressure subside and free me from the constraints that have had me bound. It is then that I find myself open to inspiration.

Wise words indeed. There have been times when the calling I had became something external, rather than internal. But I noticed it when my inner substance became fragile, when I lacked any inspiration for what I was doing. It was time to step back, find a distance or detachment from my tasks, and return to that “inner chamber” for sustenance.

This is something which the Meister explains masterly. I couldn’t find the words that he has. It is difficult in a world of Quality Management to do without “Why’s”. But that is where the vocational is separate from the job – and it is where we often have difficulty explaining ourselves. It is something that is expressed more in the way we do things than in what we do. In my situation, the spontaneous devotion to a person in need, without asking “Why?” is something that many people are even forbidden to do, as their time is being paid for by some employer. People in my position have more possibilities, but my employees have a designated time to do what they have to and anything else is their own time – even though we are a Care Home.

This is much the situation of all in our society, which is why, in my mind, the Christian community has to try and create the facility for a colony or fellowship within society. The standards of such a fellowship would provide opportunity to live without a why, the way the Meister describes. But to live “ohne Warumb” like the Rose of Angelus Selesius …

Die Rose ist ohne warumb
sie bluehet weil sie bluehet
Sie achtet nicht ihrer selbst
fragt nicht ob man sie siehet.

can only function for human beings within monastery walls, in total poverty – or in paradise. The latter being more a frame of mind than a place. But I believe that Meister Eckhart didn’t go as far as Selesius and was more concerned with understanding what it is to be “poor in spirit”.

As we can see here, it is the creative energy of God inside this timeless mystical communion of two spirits melted together, the lesser enveloped in the greater, that produces works from within. Within a fellowship, these works would be recognised for what they are, but outside of such a fellowship, they are prone to attack and swallowed up by consumerist attitudes – an example of which we see when Jesus suddenly goes missing at the house of Peter’s mother-in-law and Peter and the disciples “hunt” him down.

Jesus was the prime example of such “works” and we see that they could only take place in private, or in a protected place. “Tell no-one” was important for Jesus, but on numerous occasions we find him escaping to solitude, lest he be swallowed up by the hunger of the multitudes and fail his mission. This does teach us a lesson for community in the modern age.

Shalom

Hi Bob

Simplicity is a relative word. In chess for example the great Cuban champion Capablance responding to a question as to how far he thinks ahead replied: “one move, and it is always the best.” He saw the whole of the position as “One” so for him the move was simple. For me it is complex and intricate in its subtle revelations to the point of being artistic. This is why I believe that truly being simple as opposed to gullible requires a conscious apprehension of the wholeness and relativity of man’s position within the universe and his relation to the higher and lower within it…

As you know I continually refer to the state of “sleep” humanity is in and how the tendency is always there for self deception. You know how this infuriates everyone. But yet it is essential to respect IMO. Otherwise all sorts of fantastic notions appear out of the woodwork As Father Sylvan wrote:

Meister Eckhart describes the effort in regards man to make something from nothing. I see this as a process in stages as Father Sylvan describes. Who can begin at the level of a Meister Eckhart? It is impossible. Yet this is what is assumed as possible. This is why Jacob Needleman described this idea of intermediate Christianity always existing in the church but ignored public since who could teach it? We cannot begin as simple but must become simple through the expererience of the human condition in the context of wholeness rather than a mechanical reaction to fear which brings the simplicity of ignorance. The ability to teach from experience rather than imagination is part of a living church. That is why they are rare.

I think our differences stem from this idea of “nothingness” in relation to human spiritual/evolutionary potential and how this esoteric or inner understanding consciously develops without becoming its opposite over time in accordance with the laws of nature.

Nick,

I’m sorry, but you have once again shown that what you incessantly quote (although you say I haven’t heard the worst yet) has absolutely nothing to do with us mortals, since who can understand and who is able to explain?

Result: Lots of words, disagreement, rivalries, dissensions - but no direction. You have blocked this thread successfully which might have found some answers for someone. You feel misunderstood? Go to a counsellor who can advise you. I can’t, since you hide behind a veil of anonymity and we seldom get to see the “real you”.

But stop clogging up discussions between people wh really want to discuss and perhaps even find some answers.

Shalom

The good are getting better and the bad are getting worse.

Some have greater responsibility than others but it is just a role based on their affinity with Truth and their ability to realise this responsibility. If they do not, who will? We all have this potential.

Hi Angel,

It seems as though the contention that disturbs the spiritual development of people is like a sticky substance thrown over everyone so that we have difficulty recognising the good from the bad. The more chaos that can be created the better those who wish to be unseen can go about their “dastardly” deeds.

We need to understand that the superficial strife is not that which separates us, it isn’t necessary to all be one opinion, but it is necessary to learn that we all have a role to play and a gift to use in the interest of the whole. On the political side Globalisation could help the poorer rise to a moderate standard, but instead, it is spreading poverty and using every opportunity to unstabilise proven social structures. On the religious side, the extremists either protect investments or promote contention by playing on apocalyptical and fundamentalist fears.

The problem with Jesus, and the problem today, is that those who become Martyrs are always numbered among the extremists - even though they themselves are targetted by extremists. Only a few know the truth. No wonder then that Jesus doesn’t appear in the historical annals. The same is apparent when we are told about the first Churches and about the oppression they had to suffer. To overcome this, we need personalities who are integer in their intentions and do not hide behind a screen of intellectualism, but show devotion and love towards the people and their problems.

I might be able to write speeches, but can I lead people? I agree that there is this lying latently within us, but I believe the calling has to come from within, from the centre and heart of our being, from God.

Shalom

Hi Bob,

You do not need to lead people in the sense that Jesus did. He came at a different time and did what was neccessary for that time as did Buddha, as did Mohammed, Lao Tsu, Confucius… Jesus couldn’t find even one of his disciples to stay awake! …his purpose was different. You (I) do not need to lead people, your (my) role is different. Y(our’s) is to become aware, not only of the nature of the universe but of your own true nature. An awareness of your own true nature is not simply knowing that it exists but it is manifesting it. Becoming the beings we were created to be. Using your own inherent wisdom, practice your knowledge so that your knowledge becomes your wisdom through experience. Our lives are a book that we are ever writing. We are ever creating our environment, the world - we have the power of creation in us, at the moment we do it unconsciously, the chaos of the world is a reflection of our hearts. Naturally as you learn, awaken, your environment begins to transform as a reflection of your heart. Your awakened heart inspires. That is your gift and with gratitude not only do you inspire but you are inspired.

A

Bob

The idea is very simple. Christianity is for people who wish “to be.” Therefore it begins with the assertion that we are not and live instead in dreams or “asleep” The teaching is for awakening in order “to be.”.

It is easy to assume that we are and are with people in the light such as Paul is referring to. When I suggest that we are rather in Plato’s cave or in the "Burning House"in Buddhism, it is an insult to your ego and the rest of my fan club. We have a difference but it isn’t all that difficult to understand.

Awakening cannot be explained. It is experienced through trying to awaken. When you see you cannot and are willing to admit it to yourself, then you begin to experience the contrast and what is lost by its acceptance.

Suggesting sleep will always provoke anger and dissension. Anger, disension, disagreement and all the rest will always be there. The question becomes if it can occur in a way people can profit from? It cannot be helped. It is an annoying truth that only a few can be open to. You speak of direction, but what direction can there be with sleeping people? Everything just continues to follow the cycles it always has and will continue to do. You do not want to see that what you see as life around you and human interaction is just the normal expression of man’s collective being.

What will you say or do that is new? It has all been said and tried before and will be said and tried again. Our collective being is like a pillow. You push down on one side and the other raises. You think this is progress until the other side pushes down and your side goes up. The pillow is still the pillow regardless of the shape it is pushed into. Lawful earthly influences will just allow its shape to continue changing and adapting to earthly conditions.

Christianity realizes that the answer isn’t in doing this or that but in the collective attempts at awakening. As I said before, help in these attempts at the realization of ones sleep and efforts of awakening is Christian love. It is the realization and concern for the inner man.

What the heck will a counselor do? If she’s a cute female, hopefully I could confuse the heck out of her enough so that we’d just end up sharing some cocktails and a little reality. Now that’s a useful expert.

Translation: You just don’t want anything interfering with your feelings of self importance and expressions of “wonderful” thoughts. But I am curious as to what these answers you speak of will be.

This idea of shared talents as perceived by the state is the essence of Communism and you see how that ended up. Gifts of the spirit and earthly talents are not the same and shouldn’t be considered as such.

Hi Bob,

For those who are of good intent, each performs within their understanding of what can be understood in that moment. That each experience brings greater understanding is given. That which is our spiritual nature is continually unfolding, and in every moment we have more to share.

That which is the ineffable requires no more of us. To be open, to share willingly, to celebrate both our spirit and our humanity and to grow in that. Is that not enough? What more does any consciousness have to offer than the best of our potential in any moment?

If there is leadership, if one is to be seen as a ‘guide’, it is in our acceptance of the gift of life and to share our hearts and understanding with others. If there is Truth, it is in that simplicity. Authenticity, truth, sincerity, or any other word you would place here, is not of books, holy or otherwise, but in that which rises spontaneously from our hearts and minds. As a creation of all that is, we have all the potential for expressing the wonder of the ineffable. “The truth will out”. We just have to find the courage to let go of ourselves and be that which is.

JT

Hi Nick,

If only it were that simple – at least you have been continually denying that when I have said that it could be simple. I have the feeling that you are a compulsive dissenter, whatever opinion other people have.

When you suggest the cave, I get the feeling the record has a scratch. It seems to please you that you could insult someone – I may not appear it, but you leave me quite indifferent. What does exasperate me is the fact that you seem unable to make up your mind, or use words that could lead us onwards. I experience you as a quagmire in which I get stuck and you are always around the corner.

Do you actually know what you meant by this? On the other hand, don’t try and explain. I’ve had enough.

The needle is stuck again, [yawn]

If you say so, but Nick, please stop posting the same things over and over again - please

Shalom

Hi Angel,

Now that’s a sobering thought!

I think you are right to some degree, although I sometimes see little advance and for what advance we have achieved, a lot of effort invested.

Thanks, I am thankful when others pick me up. It has been an eventful weekend – and a tiring one. It is helpful when people put us back on the track…

True words.

Hi JT,

Yes, I think that all scripture and inpirational writing is trying to achieve a peace within us, a “quiescence” that helps us “live in the Spirit” and shapes our souls.

This became clear to me when I was driving an old lady home form a Bible-meeting and she said to me, “I often wonder whether God will ask me what I know when I meet him. You see, the older I get, the less I know. So many memories elude me, faces have gone, words have gone. I know I knew once, but I don’t know now. Do you think that God will want to know what I have learnt in the Bible?”

I said, “I think God will know what you have known, because he will be able to read it in your soul. The way you approach him, the way you listen to him, the way you speak to him will be a thousand pages in the book of your life. It isn’t what we have forgotten that worries me, but what we can’t forget, and would rather have had never happened.”

She said, “He will know that too! Thanks be to God that he speaks through us to each other, and that we may know that he is merciful.”

Shalom

Lifetimes…

All thanks to Heaven. Yes it has been a challenging weekend. Yes indeed.

A

Bob, I question whether advance is quite what we are about. For every ‘positive’ we bring about, we bring a measure of it’s opposite. As one begins to see that all partakes of one, advancing or not advancing becomes the same to us. To live as best we can understand and to share that with others is the effort to be made. The the. Sharing our grasp of the ineffable, our love of life, and life’s love of us is the reciprocal gift. It’s so simple. Too simple. If we come from within, then all without will follow. That is our faith in life.

JT