Makes you wonder who you are…
Easy to get frustrated or guilty from then on.
IMO:
Inspiration is not god.
Thank yourself for inspiration. You created or can destroy inspiration and higher states of consciousness.
Do “we”?
This is the same old story I see everywhere.
People fall in love with the universe and feel some kind of intimacy, even though the universe doesn’t give a fuck or respond.
I don’t want to lie to myself, or put hope where there need not be any hope at all.
My apologies Bob, that was more in response to Dan(…squiggle here).
You stated it clearly enough in your initial post, and it would appear that we understand one another well enough, conventions of name are an understood construct of human language and attempted understanding.
Acceptable, as long as the symbols are viewed as less than the object or article to which the convention has been attached.
I disagree. You must be reading a different bible than the one I have. If you are looking for a nice happy peaceful religion then Christianity isn’t it. Conflict of ideas and argument about objective truth is evident from the birth pangs of Christianity. Paul’s letters are a good example and thus half the NT is argument and correction, not simply nice stories about healing the blind and cuddling children. The denominationalism of the church today is natural and healthy and testament to it’s life and vibrancy. Only where the church is completely dead is it quiet and peaceful. The church is in a battle until the end of time. Those who imply that the church should stop fighting don’t understand it’s purpose. Christianity is not a methodology to make the world a nicer place, it is a message of radical change and eternal salvation. Those who would use iJesus words to preach peace to everyone around them are simply misled. Jesus said…
Matthew 10
33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. 34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
Jesus is only gentle with his sheep. He can be a fearful sight for those who are not or who come against him. You are taking refuge in eastern wisdom because you misunderstand who Jesus was and is.
Revelation 19
11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Dan~,
You might have missed something there. I don’t stand outside the universe, I’m part of it. Do I feel some kind of intimacy? Of course. Why not? It’s me. The universrse doesn’t care or respond? You’re here aren’y you? How much more do you expect?
I really don’t understand this last statement. Lie to yourself about what? Hope for what? I don’t do either of those things. The fact that we can’t “know” in some sort of scientific objective way doesn’t mean that it rules out all possibilities.
I’m not standing around waiting for some burning bush to start talking to me, but the patterns of nature say something, even if I can’t say what it is. That isn’t lying or hoping for anything.
Hi Ned,
I thought you might somehow …
So you take the Bible so literally that you prevent Christianity from being happy and peaceful. If you could understand that the greeting Jesus often used “Shalama bayta†– peace to this house and family – you would appreciate that Shalom, Salaam (Arabic) and Shalama (Aramaic) derive from a verb that means to be fulfilled or complete, much more than our contemporary “peaceâ€. If the aim is to be complete, why be at odds? The Shabath is the day of completion and rest.
We know that he foresaw the division that he would cause, which was quite normal for a country split by their differing political affinities and aspirations. If he gathered people to follow the Way, they would come from out of various Sects and Groups. On another note, Jesus consoled the fear that his followers had, that they would be cut off: (Luk 8:48 ) “And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.â€
The “tohubohu†and “chôshek†stand in opposition to the creation of light and form. It is order that is brought by the creation, an order that culminates in the shabath – which was made for man. The Sons of God are made whole and go in peace wherever they may go, which explains why they should pass on that peace: (Luk 10:5-6) And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
There is a calmness and imperturbability in these words which is unfortunately lacking in Christianity.
Shalom
I’m not preventing anything. It was Jesus himself who said he did not come to bring peace but a sword. It is Jesus we see with his robe dripped in blood. I’m merely pointing out that the bible does not fit nicely into your post-modern dream land. Christianity has always been a religion of attack and defense. Jesus told us that we would have “great trouble” in the world and that the world would always be against his followers. Preaching peace and tranqility was not his purpose even if it is yours.
Hi Ned,
carry on ignoring every other indication that you might be very one-sided and you will get absolutely nowhere. Sad really …
Shalom
I also think there is a delusional state which many christians encounter through studying the Bible , a misinterpretation of christs words leads to an unrealistic view about the world . One view is that violence is always wrong , and that we should turn the other cheek all the time .
In this way , they dont realize they are actually hindering the coming of Gods kingdom if there is one . They study only one aspect of christs life , and conveniently forget the rest . I think thats why traditional christianity has given way to other , seemingly more liberal forms . But I also think this new age approach from many christian schools and churches is bunk .
It all amounts to the same thing , from whatever group you hear from , accept christ , he loves you , wont judge you , then when you get in the door , 3 months later they make you feel bad about the person you are . And start battering on about Hell , how inadequate you are without “christ” .
The worrying thing is that “christ” for many people is actually just an extension of their own private desires , their perversions and their egotism . Hence the reason so many ministers , preachers , priests & so called mystics cant be trusted
Om
Hi DoL,
Sounds fascinating - what has it got to do with my subject?
Shalom
I find a lot of food for thought in the following exchange between Bob and Dan
Dan wrote:
Bob wrote
Dan wrote:
Does humiliation equate with humility? Not as I understand them. Humility in the spiritual sense is experienced in the essence of a human being. Humiliation is a reaction from the pride of our acquired personality or the role we play in life. Unfortunately humiliation plays a large role in secular religion and IMO has done far more harm than good. But the inner experience of humility in contrast is a real perception of relative human quality which allows us to become inwardly open and it is essential to weaken the power of the unreal in us. Through the words humility and humiliation appear to be related, in reality they are expressions of aspects of our collective inner nature that are unrelated. We don’t notice this because we normally assume that we are our personality rather than that we have acquired a personality so do not recognize its dominance of our lives and potential. From this perspective the words are related.
Dan doesn’t seek self knowledge since it may be discouraging. Yet some people view self knowledge as a means for the experience of truth and wisdom. It is seen as encouraging to become open to such knowledge.
But this is the same situation. What becomes discouraged: our personalities or us? Can we tell the difference? Yet for those like me that define the essential purpose of religion as helping our essential selves grow to become what it can, we must begin to tell the difference.
It think is you who are ignoring your one-sided thought processes. I make no bones about the fact that I believe 100% in the bible and Orthodox Christian theology. Obviously this makes me one-sided, but I never claimed to be otherwise.
The irony is that you claim to be open-minded but are anything but. You preach this religion you made up yourself of nothing but peace. It’s as one-sided as any other religious thought process and closed to any alternatives.
And calling someone’s viewpoint “sad” is disingenuous. It’s a subtle form of attack that makes you sound caring, deliberately projecting an image of love while taking a swipe at the same time. In contrast I find your viewpoint just plain dumb. People are evil by nature and will not start loving and being in “shalom” with each other just by talking about it and trying harder. A brief review of world history should teach you that.
Couldn’t agree more. The gospel has been preverted so that it becomes a consumer product appealing to self-interest. That is why we need to see a balanced portrayal of Jesus and not simply the nice guy who wants to be our best friend. Although there is some truth in that image, Jesus is also the judge of the universe who will condemn many to eternal suffering, and slaughter the armies of the earth. We should both love and fear him. But people like Bob want the “gentle Jesus meek and mild” without acknowledging the “king of kings”. Unfortunately this distortion is becoming more popular both inside and outside the church. the only correction is to tell people to read their bible and let this inform their image of Jesus, rather than the popular alrenative of creating a nice image of Jesus in their head and go looking for bible passages to support it.
Hi Bob,
I’ve been sort of following along here and it is obvious that understanding is being connected to literalism again. There simply is no way to get past that wall. It is true that Jesus didn’t come to bring peace to the world, but to bring peace to the individual heart. To step away from the wordly concerns of man is unsettling to those whose concerns are of the world, and indeed, sets man against man. It is the battle of letter of law versus spirit of law.
Once again, the message Jesus brought is buried in a flurry of biblical quotes justifying whatever position one chooses along with the attendant denunciation of anyone who disagrees because they REALLY know. I suspect that the gospel hymn “Onward Christian Soldiers” is their favorite song…
Stay the course. A few are capable, we just don’t know who, and at what moment.
Did you just make that up or do you have a particular quote from Jesus to substantiate it? In my copy of the bible Jesus said quite plainly what he came to bring. He said…
Matthew 10:34 I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
Ned,
And that is a difference in approach. You read the words literally, and I read the word metaphorically. I suspect this is true in whatever we read, not just religious issues. We certainly come to different conclusions.
There is nothing wrong with either approach until one of us tries to tell the other “how it is”. Determinism isn’t a very useful course in open discussion.
The problem with your approach is that it means nothing. It makes your spiritual searching as meaningful as scratching your backside. Since you are free to interpret any spiritual writing exactly as you please, you can either choose to take it’s plain meaning or twist it 180 degrees till it suits your purpose. But to treat any spiritual writing like this is identical to just making your own religion up from scratch. Everything becomes meaningless and you end up following your own limited ideas, which unsurprisingly simply end up exalting your own ego.
So I disagree. Your approach is not simply “different”, it is wrong.
And that is always the literalist’s answer. I know. I was born and raised in it. Perhaps if you could show me the unified christian interpretation of the bible I might feel compelled to listen, but you can’t, and that’s the point. You’re interpretation is countered by a multitude of different interpretations inside your own christian community. And in those different interpretations, you are judged just as wrong as you would judge me.
So I’ll feel quite comfortable interpreting biblical passage as I choose. That is exactly and precisely what you and millions of your fellow christians are doing this very moment. Each and every christian has the one and only truth - all one million of those truths.
So be as confident in your beliefs as you wish, but reserve your judgement for your fellow christians who are not only wrong, but pretending they’re right. You can judge us heathens after you clean up your own ranks.
Anyone who accepts the early creeds of the church is my brother or sister. We might argue about stuff but they are a vital part of my family. And I’m not judging you as a person by telling you that you are going in the wrong direction. Don’t take everything so personally! You may well be a better man than me. But that’s not going to help you much if you don’t make peace with the judge of the universe.
A life consistantly lived is a religion written in act and deed, sprung from a relationship with an unconscious and unique conceptualization of God/Godself.
Inwardly, each is as true as its fellow; outwardly, each is judged by its physical manifestation in deed. Truth is linked to success, both on an ideological and materialistic level.
Why is Catholicism one of the most ornate and ostentatious religious sects…? Because it was always going to be.
Mainstream religion is an inevitable outcome of cohesive group behaviour. Pray together, stay together, vanquish thine enemy together.
