A perfect being doesn’t need to act. Doesn’t have to. Acting is done out of necessity. By creating, or acting, it means god was lacking something, therefore God is not omnipotent.
What example of perfection are YOU using? Either you think you’re perfect, therefore you know what perfection must be, or you know someone who is perfect.
If science is based on observable events, etc, like many of you say it is, then you just made a mistake. If you don’t have any example of perfection, how can you tell what it is or isn’t? Who are we, that we should oppose perfection and tell it (in this case, Him) that it’s wrong?
OK…so you think you know my heart? You don’t even know me. My heart admits ignorance in regard to reality. There is no absolutes for me. Nor you. You only trust your feelings and your book. Also the majority of the world cannot agree on which God is the right one. So how is it proven when there is still a struggle for it?
I seek the truth daily. Once again you are being assumptive by pretending you know anything about me. I open up to admittance that the Christian God may be the right one. Or maybe Allah, or Buddha and so on and so on. The search for the truth should never end. So in reality to me it seems you have stopped seeking the truth since you have settled.
Once again, you are jumping to conclusions w/o reading my other posts 
I clearly stated that it is man’s fault I was simply pointing out that logically it makes no sense for mankind to be able to do such things. It carries no mastermind plan in it. Sure I do have good things to say when good things happen. I am thankful for everything I have and all the things life has given me. But does that mean that God gave it to me? Nope. I don’t know. Also, the focus is not on the good things because people are so quick to forget those. So I choose to point to negative facets of life. Thanks for thinking you know anything about me from an online forum tho
Nope. The point in case is fellow man does not remember the good as readily as the bad which is why I use it. To make a statement it is best to hit people in the heart and mind. That way it shall scar their thoughts which never allows them to forget it. No where did I say good things don’t happen to people.
I am in no corner my friend. I am still in the center of the room admitting ignorance. I am simply questioning whilst you sit in your corner and read your book. If you are so intent upon me asking about the good things then how about this. If God is so good, why must we even be here? Is it a reward? Is testing us a sign of a virtueous being? And why do we deserve good things while others deserve bad things?
I must say this…learn to reading comprehend. Notice the quotations around “facts”? This shows a contrived skepticism of your “facts” meaning they are not logically proven. I discredited you in saying they are not real facts because they cannot stand through a logical proof.
I did…and I did it again. Hell how about one more time. Astral, you are forever wrong.
I did not step off like a chicken I was being moderatly respectful since I choose to have a bit of tact in life, unlike you apprently. Now, what proof is this that you are asking for? The one where I have pointed out where the Bible is wrong? Or, that you are a silly little man and have no proof that you are right and refuse to admit so?
Truth is something none of us can have until the end. It is relative when we are alive because it cannot be fully proven. It is not my last defense it is the only plausible one. For your sake I will explain this to you. You study the Bible. It is one of hundreds maybe thousands of religious texts in the world. You say you know the truth. So do a billion or so others. Who is right? We don’t know. What aspect of your, mine, and everyone else’s ignorance do you not comprehend?
How am I lying? By admitting ignorance and disproving your ideas of what you know as “facts”? If anything you are lying to yourself in believing you are on the sole path to anything. I feel know shame in admitting I maybe wrong.
In closing I would just like to say this. We as humans know nothing. We can think we do but in reality we can’t until we know death. So, seek your path, don’t verbally abuse other’s paths (Astral), and don’t profess your path to be the only one.
Hypocritical to the extreme is what you post looks like. The first thing you ask me is if I think I know YOUR heart. Then you think your right to tell me what I think and feel? You have quite the double standard there buddy.
More hypocrisy. You say I am being assumptive and pretending that I know anything about you while you tell me that I have stopped seeking truth obviously being just as assumptive about me.
You think you have a right to tell other people what they are thinking yet they do not have a right to say what you are. You have some serious issues you need to work out with your hypocrisy.
I appears I am no less presumptive about you as you are me. I call it like I see it, and that does include the possiblity of errors for I am not perfect but you apparently think yourself to be above others. You should keep that ego in large check.
I am willing to allow you that one, but if you fail to mention it in some regards you are allowing others to take it out of context. Next time offer up some form of caveat regarding such comments so you are not taken out of context. If you focus on nothing but the bad then guess what… that will be the focus of the subject!
But to further help you understand something. In order for God to allow a being to do good unto another the ability to commit evil just comes with it. God gave us free will. So there are no controls, and to get mad about that is being very childish in mind about it.
If you can only admit ignorance than you have nothing to stand on in opposition to me. You must at least recognize that you do have some knowledge, at least enough to believe you can challange me.
About why we are here? Then I would ask why you do nothing more than eat, drink, expell waste and sleep. I would say that God was looking for a bit more out of life than to sit and stare out into a dark cosmos that has nothing in it. This is not to say that we are God’s personal sitcom to entertain Him, but to say that God decided to set about work and make more out of His own life and create ours!
You do the same thing… why? Because there is a very unique property in all of us that was given to us when God put a part of His spirit into us. We have desire to create!
After this creation God decided that once we ate of the tree of Knowledge we will then need to be tested on virtue before He would allow us to have eternal life.
The meaning of deserves means nothing in this context. God simply gives unto others according to their works. This has never been a secret, and mentioned much in the bible. The USA is primarily a Christianly bases nation, not so much now as in the past, but look what happened to this Nation, because of that base we where blessed by God more than other nations and we were increased! Now we are getting less because we are stepping farther and farther away from God.
Based on whos logic? Logic is just as different for each person as taste preferences. A person could logically deny that gravity exists… just because you dissagree with that logic does not mean he did not logically deduce that! Your logic does not match mine. It is just different! What is logically proven to you, may be logically dissproven to me!
How can anyone who has already admitted to being ignorant know that I am wrong? More hypocrisy.
I admit I am not a PC guy. I dont like wadding through puddles of fecal matter like you do.
I have already given the answers against your previous posts regarding the bible. It was plain to see that your examples are blatant lies, completely dispelled if people will just stop and “ACTUALLY” read the chapters in question!
Then you will remain forever lost, and I cannot help you. It is not possible to help anyone that refuses to even help themselves!
More hypocrisy. You are right and I am wrong, but the trick here is that I dont have the right under your rules to say I am right.
It is fine for you to abuse my path but not fine for me to abuse yours.
My path is the only one, you just dont like it, but it will never change the truth.
Mankind can hardly stand its own iniquity so therefore it turns its face away from God, and makes up all manner of excuses to justify it! I cannot stop you, I can only pray that you realize it.
Christianthinker quote - an Islamic friend of mine…
He can’t have been a muslim mate because their “holy” book instructs them -
[Koran 5.51] “O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends, they are friends of each other, and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people”
He’d better hope his Imam doesn’t find out he’s mates with you or his poor head’ll be rolling down the street in no time… 
I was questioning the reason behind your absolutes not my knowledge of you . And you still don’t know everyone’s hearts.
Kthnxbye.
You claim to know the truth. I do not. So I seek the truth. You say you have found it. Therefore you have stopped seeking it. Is that not a logical statement? My hypocrisy is in check; thanks for caring tho 
I am above no one. The fact I admit my ignorance keeps my ego in check. Hell, I wonder if I am even real. But you good sir, claim to know the truth. That would put you above any of the living then.
That would put your ego on a righteous high-ground as we see you have. Thanks again for caring for my ego tho. I wouldn’t want to compete with you.
You give it to me then try to turn it around? How noble. If others take it out of context then I will try to shot them why I feel and think the way I do. That is the most I can offer. And the bad was the focus until you forced your way into the dialogue.
I personally don’t believe that free-will is a product of God but rather a tool used to help us survive by rationalizing what would be best etc. But anyways lets talk about this childish mind at evil. Say someone comes into your house, rapes your wife and daughter in front of you, beats you unmercifully, kills the rest of your family then burns down your house. Then I say “Man, you are really being childish getting mad about evil.” That is essentially what you are saying to me at this point.
Sure I do. I oppose you with ignorance. Explain to me why the Christian God is the right one. Why not the 1000’s of other gods or dozens of religions? How do you know you are on the right path?
We do what we do because we seem to have a highly evolved brain used as an adaptation for survival. To me that is. Also why would something so perfect choose to make more out of His own life? And would it even be called a life if he was perfect? What constitutes Him as having desires? Should you bring him down to our level by giving it a pronoun?
What makes you so sure that it is his spirit and not some evolutionary bonus? And my path does not lead to creation but rather deconstruction to reach the bare-bones so I can examine it. And I imagine many others do as well.
Who are we? What if this Garden of Eden never was real? Does that make this all a farce? And why would he want to test us if he is perfect? Couldn’t he just instill in us the wisdom?
Uh oh, I smell a neo-Con. hehe. But how do you explain the rise of nations like Germany, Japan, China, India, Russia, and various other nations who do not believe in your God? Granted you can argue that Germany used to be close to God but much has changed since.
Based on the Western culture logic used to determine fallacies and proofs. It seems to me faith would leave little room for logic. But the best statement you have made lies in this quip. (You logic does not match mine. It is just different! What is logicaly proven to you, maybe logically dissproven to me!) Now you see why I wonder your path, my path or anyone else’s is the right one. What seems logical to one person, sounds foolish to the other. So I ask you once again; what makes you so right? And everyone else so wrong?
LOL it was a joke. I was simply humoring you.
Nice ad hom bud. I did not know being courteous to others was a bad thing. I apologize for being polite to you or others.
Uhh…actually you didn’t. You said that the bible has never been disproven. And I corrected you by adding in a couple of things like Creationism = debunked, World wide flooding =debunked, age of the earth = debunked. Then you never responded to me.
Because my path is not yours I am forever lost? You are right I am sitting here in a pile of my own filth not helping myself. Why is your path the only one that can save? I would not want your aid anyways bud.
By admitting humanity’s ignorance I did not say you are wrong. I said we cannot know. And the only time I mentioned you specifically is for you abusing others paths.
If by abuse you mean question then sure. It is not right to abuse anyone’s path. And you are a hater of all path’s but your own. Whether they be Judaic, Hindi, Buddhist, Daoist, Sufist you hate them all and profess them wrong. So, simply again I will ask, why are you right and everyone else wrong?
I am facing my own inequity in saying that I know nothing. You seem to face something. We cannot know if it is God, Buddha, Allah or whatever until the smokescreen we live in is cleared. Don’t pray for me. I will find my own truths.
Any coincidnce that Mick rhymes with Dick?
It’s your God, they’re your rules, you go to Hell.
And just remember, God put dinosaur bones here t - to…to test our faith!
I personally despise most religion; a claim to peace and loving comes from virtually all religions, yet more people have died in the name of God than for any other reason. And it’s even more annoying to have Christians bitch about their religion and how righteous it is and how everyone should follow it. If someone is interested in the religion, talk to them, but if no one asks, and no one wants to know, then here’s a rule the political hustlers forgot to mention (when they came up with ten commandments, not eleven not nine, exactly ten) when making shit up to keep their sheep in line: Thou shall keep thy religion to thyself.
Influenced by George Carlin (you’ll find a lot of my posts will have shit he’s said in them, because it’s about the same philosophy I follow).
If God created us, then why did He make us unfit to pass the test? I know your answer will probably be ‘free will’, but God is omniscient; He would therefore have known upon our creation what our choices would be. So, He intended for us to choose the wrong path, correct? Furthermore, what exactly is a “free will”? Assuming I have one, I don’t see how any choice I make is entirely free; if it were, I’d simply be doing random things with no regard to the environment or my understanding of consequences.
A more probable definition might be a sortof composition of self-awareness and the capacity for abstract thought; in this sense, freedom is simply the capacity to have some understanding of what we are, rather than only the capacity to be what we are. But this serves no position in a metaphysical problem like God and evil; it only has meaning in a real world sense.
He is arguing that he knows that humans are ignorant. Therefore, the position he stands on is that both of you are ignorant. He is challenging your claim to knowledge with the claim that you don’t know it for certain.
God was lonely? Doesn’t that contradict perfection? Also, God intended to make more than Himself–that is, more than infinite?
God has desires?
Does this fit with Jesus’ saying the meek will inherit earth, or that the poor will have riches in heaven?
…
So the Holy Roman Empire fits this model too? What about Genghis Khan? Alexander the Great? Hitler? Stalin?
I think he intended to mean formal Logic, not “logic - the process of thought”, but nevertheless, if we all thought in entirely different ways, you might have believed I were talking about ladybugs taking over our galaxy in the prior sentence. Given that this didn’t occur, I think we can safely say there’s probably a lot of common ground in the way people think.
So the Bible has proof that there is nothing lacking credibility in the Bible? What about the contradictions in the Bible–like, Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2 (here is a long list of them)?
I challenge you to stop thinking about God the way you think about your neighbor, your friend, or even your president (or a past president you liked). The idea that God is a person-like entity that we can relate to in most of our higher capacities (that is like emotions, but not like defecation) is, to be frank, ridiculous in parrallel to the necessary qualities of being the one universal God. Being human is almost entirely defined by imperfection; our motivation itself is usually “to make things better.” God is all things, is timeless, and is all-powerful. God therefore wouldn’t concieve of better and worse in a way that is even remotely comparable to us measely humans, thus God’s motivation, and everything that follows, is inconcievable to us.
In this respect especially, I agree with Satori; we are inexorably ignorant. Unfortunately for those following the religious trend around here (that is, the US), this definition of God, while being immune to the argument of evil by way of being beyond our perspective to an infinite extent, serves in little manner to define righteousness. The only thing God is attached to, by this idea, is the universe and everything in it. No absolute hierarchies can be derived from God, and thus there is no basis under God to claim absolute righteousness.
I do not know everyone hearts. But I do know that certain things have already been placed in all hearts. It is up to you to acknowledge or to deny them. I only wish to help.
Remember, God allows ignorance as a valid excuse, but in all matters and cases it is written that all shall be judged for denying God. This directly states that proof is here. And denying it will not be tolerated.
I know the truth concerning of that which I speak. Your attempts to apply that statement out of scope is telling on you. My statement in no way implies that I know ALL truths and you know that. You are trying to create a red herring. You failed. My quest for knowledge and truth will continue until my death! So try not to spit on me just because I am trying to help you out.
I could know all truths in Gods creation but I will never be any better than you even if you were the most vile, evil, and despicable human on earth! God loves all equally and Christ came for the sinners not the saved!
I did not realize that I should have asked your permission prior to making comments. Was that in the rule book? Before I stick a foot in my mouth, is this a “Public” forum?
Geez, you certainly failed to understand any bit of my post. I think I will just leave this part alone.
Oppose me with ignorance? You obviously love ignorance and have no desire to learn truth. Even when it is offered to you for free. Very well, I shall not attempt to enlighten you any further.
God did not make us unfit to pass the test. I know that everyone including myself likes to throw the “we are on trial” phrase around a lot but there are NO tests for us to pass. God is offering salvation for those who will seek it. This is not really a test for pass or fail. You might think that my explanation is crazy but it is true. If we are here for a test then all we would need to make it to heaven is the fact that we only need just a few more good things under our belts than bad things. This is not how it works. Salvation is offered to all those who will seek it, even the most vile of people. But remember, they actually have to seek it. Most do not.
You need to tone it down. If you will persist in wiggling in the minutia then you will never notice it going down the drain! Freedom has nothing to do with capacity.
I am not new to this game. That is the first line of defense against me. To attempt to categorically marginalize me to make it appear as if I dont know what I am speaking about. The problem with this is that its a defeatist attitude. If he trully felt that way he would never even bother to come to a place like this or to even seek truth. Why? Because he wants to think like an agnostic… God being unknowable. This is their defense and their excuse so they can willfully make mistakes that they know are mistakes!
He claims ignorance, all he can ask for is proof. He is even worse than he tries to make me out to be. I at least am claiming truth. But he in all his ignorance is even daring to challange me with it. Try going to a court and making this same argument against another lawyer. Talk about getting someones lunch eaten.
Are you kidding me? That does not contradic perfection in any fashion or form! Let me tell you what… since you think your definition of what a word means is more important that its real definition, go to the bank and tell them that the $1 bill in your pocket is worth $100 and send me 1/2 for helping you make some money.
Will is desire. If God is not willing for any of us to perish then he does not desire that we perish. Didnt you at least read a little bit of the Bible? What God desires is amply mentioned.
You better believe your bunny slippers on it!
And look what happened to them. The historical accounts are undisputable. No nation has done as much good, or helped the world out near as much as the US. The world was carried into the future by America!
My explanaition was based on prosperity not power. Do you think the Romans, Genghis, Alexander, or Hitler had nations with a average base Capital per Population like the USA? Not even close! Even the poorest here have more than some nations middle class! The poor are considered Rich here! USA has obtain more prosperity than any nation currently or historically!
Kinda put your foot into it didnt ya? If you made the statement because I didnt clarify properly then you instead have my apologies!
Here is the deal. I can physically drag a person to a clean stream of water to drink. But I can not realy prove that it is clean, even if I drink from it, he may think it is poisioned and I conceal the antidote with me. Likewise I can give a person truth but I cannot make them understand it nor can I make them believe it!
I have already read many a laundry list of so called contradictions. Most of them are completely made up and the rest are understood can clarified with some study. If have found that not many care to look beyond the cover to see what is really under the hood.
Never known a President I ever liked. And history has alredy judged those who have passed before. It is not rediculous in the least to relate to God. God calls us to act as Godly as possible! And I like the fact that you will harp on your own imperfection and while you are doing that you claim to know that God is inconceivable to us in your imperfection. If your imperfect how do you know your even close to correct? More challanges from the ignorant against those who are not?
The only correct thing you have said in that entire post is that “there is no basis under God to claim absolute righteousness”.
God is the progenitor of righteousness and only He counts it in us! But if you are really that crazy about being ignorant then do not let me stop your lust of a simple incomlete life. In fact why are you even here? Is it your goal to drag others down into your ignorance with you?
I was using your word, “test”, please don’t get hung up on it. You didn’t respond to my point, just the fact that some people use the word “test” against your thinking. I was talking about free will and my belief that it does not defend your position.
It has solely to do with capacity. If you are free, you still go down one path, you just had, in some sense depending on the form of freedom, the capacity to choose other paths. This allows choice, which is the value of freedom; because we are self-aware, we have a further level in our visibility that serves to feedback our development from choice. We don’t just learn from experience, we judge and define ourselves because of it.
My point, again, was that this freedom doesn’t have anything to do with your conception of God and His relationship with our evils. By your definition, an omniscient, omnipotent God who created us would have known precisely what choices we would make; the free wills He made were not random, and were predictable to Him because He had complete power over them. Hence, God created evil intentionally.
They can willfully make mistakes if they want; proclaiming ignorance does little to aid or change this. He’s talking about ultimate ignorance anyway, so it is nearly irrelevent to real world choices–other than those expressing beliefs about ultimate truth. Life doesn’t become pointless just because you can’t know everything.
Actually, that’s a major part of how a court works. One guy comes in with a theory, the other guy comes in to cast doubt on it, and twelve people decide whether or not the theory is devoid of doubt. If it has reasonable doubt, the court demands that it not be acted upon.
Could you refute me with an argument instead of…whatever that was? Can you tell me the “real definition” of perfection?
You can apply the word “desire” to God, but you’d have to do so in an entirely different way than you would with a person.
Is progress unprecedented too?
Not per capita; we’ve got the most total. As of 2005, we’re in fourth in per capita wealth.
Ok, but that has nothing to do with what you quoted of me, and if nobody doubted anything, we’d be in trouble (or just extinct).
I don’t know, that’s why it’s called faith. And no, you are nearly as ignorant as I; you just claim you know for certain, while I recognize and admit my ignorance.
I’m not “crazy about being ignorant”; I’m saying it’s an inescapable fact of existing as a human. I’m here to learn, and I’m pretty sure I can’t make you any more ignorant than you are now; I don’t know how to take away knowledge. What I would like for you to recognize is the fact that you don’t know anything absolutely, such that you escape your ignorance of this fact, but that isn’t my primary goal here.
You just told me in absolute terms that one phrase of mine was right, didn’t you? What told you this thing was totally right?
How? Because of your personal experience?
I sincerly respect this statement but you must let others find their own way.
OK, that is the Bible though, only one book of humanity stating it has divine powers. I respI am not new to this game. That is the first line of defense against me. To attempt to categorically marginalize me to make it appear as if I dont know what I am speaking about. The problem with this is that its a defeatist attitude. If he trully felt that way he would never even bother to come to a place like this or to even seek truth. Why? Because he wants to think like an agnostic… God being unknowable. This is their defense and their excuse so they can willfully make mistakes that they know are mistakes! I am not new to this game. That is the first line of defense against me. To attempt to categorically marginalize me to make it appear as if I dont know what I am speaking about. The problem with this is that its a defeatist attitude. If he trully felt that way he would never even bother to come to a place like this or to even seek truth. Why? Because he wants to think like an agnostic… God being unknowable. This is their defense and their excuse so they can willfully make mistakes that they know are mistakes! ect your belief in it but it
has no power over most of the world. And yes you may be right but in this lifetime I am my own man.
You did claim that it was the Ultimate Truth tho. I did not create a red herring to distract you or the subject. OK good do continue seeking the truth. I would certainly not hope you would settle for what you know. If you think I spat on you I am sorry I certainly did not mean it but just wanted to point out the possiblities in which we live. But once again we each have our own paths so helping me is for nought.
OK, that is fine for you to believe but you did take the high-ground in regards to your religion; which is why I commented on it.
Often when you enter the conversation it tends to be sullied. Someone said on the forums “Oh no, here come the fundies.”
Ignoring a statement shows perhaps you couldn’t respond well to it not misunderstanding on my part. What point were you trying to make then?
Once again you totally miss the point. I don’t love ignorance; I admit it. I seek truth through my own path. Just because it does not coincide with your’s does not make it wrong; nor does it make your’s wrong. I am sorry if you cannot accept humanities fallability.
Ok, this is a fine statement. You offered your opinion and made no claim of total truth. I just hope by seek it you don’t mean just Christianity but all facets of religion.
Alun- Thank you very much for your insight. I appreciate your input from a Christian perspective (I believe you mentioned your religious orientation on a prior thread) Please continue with the great and insightful posts.
Your memory is correct; thank you Satori.
You have some very stimulating posts here too, although to be honest you’ve gotten down and dirty at this point in this particular thread.
Certain names always get the blood going I suppose 
0o0o0o Ya got me!
not.
The difference between you fathering a child and God creating a human is that GOD IS PERFECT. What God creates has no flaws. Period. Because he is God he can make no mistakes.
With that said satan should NEVER have fell from grace if he was created at the hands of a perfect being.
owned.
This applies to adam and eve as well.
Another thing, why was satan in God’s Garden of Eden? Hmmm? Why? God sees all and he should have either destroyed satan or banished him from Eden like he did adam and eve after they were MANIPULATED.
Ned Flanders = owned.
Period.
"0o0o0o Ya got me!
not.
The difference between you fathering a child and God creating a human is that GOD IS PERFECT. What God creates has no flaws. Period. Because he is God he can make no mistakes.
With that said satan should NEVER have fell from grace if he was created at the hands of a perfect being.
owned.
This applies to adam and eve as well.
Another thing, why was satan in God’s Garden of Eden? Hmmm? Why? God sees all and he should have either destroyed satan or banished him from Eden like he did adam and eve after they were MANIPULATED.
Ned Flanders = owned.
Period."
Man…maybe you should quit acting like this is some online video game…I think this is serious stuff and you’re out for self exhaltation…what God are you believing in? He’s not going to like you…you might as well be his lucifer who becomes satan.
You can’t just assume you know God’s plan…Nobody will ever fully understand free will the way God does…and that’s all there is to that when discussing with the confines of My God…nuff said and I won’t end with a owned…because I’m more mature than that.
If you had actually read the article you’d see that they DID discuss the context, and the context explained just why it made no sense that this prophecy would be a messianic prophecy. It referred to Hezekiah, not Jesus. And your argument about the girl being a virgin makes no sense whatsoever. You have to do a lot better than this to have any credibility with me. It seems all too clear that you are just unthinkingly regurgitating the opinions of your fringe Christian church. Why don’t YOU read the chapter and see if you can explain it better than they did.
You’ll have to explain where this assumption comes from. I agree that God is perfect but I disagree that a perfect being cannot make something that has the capacity for imperfection. Why would you assume this?
I agree. God made creatures with the capacity for moral choice. That we use this choice to follow an evil path does not automatically mean that God is imperfect.
You might think these questions are very deep but they are actually quite shallow. I assume satan was in the garden of Eden because God allowed him to be there. Why do you assume that God would have destroyed satan? Maybe he wanted to test man’s moral capabilities.
I’m not quite sure what this means exactly. But if you’re trying to dazzle us in some logic battle then I think you’ll have to try a little harder. Your questions reveal you to be someone who hasn’t thought seriously about this topic. I’d hazard a guess that you’re about 15 years old and have suddenly decided to give those “religious folk” a piece of your mind. By all means keep asking questions, but try to tone down the WWF claims of victory until you actually make a serious point.