A dive into our political and economic system

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
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We need to think about the nature of our governments
and, AND the economic systems that we currently live under…

The first thing to realize is that there are multiple political
systems and multiple economic systems…
and within that statement lies our first problem, that most
people assume that the political and economic systems
are interchangeable or basically the same thing…
the thing to realize is that the political systems and
economic systems are two distinct and separate entities and
working towards different ends…contarary to popular opinion,
capitalism and democracy are not the same thing, they are two
entities with different goals and agendas…

Political systems are formal and informal structures, processes,
and rules that determine how a society makes decisions, exercises
power and allocates resources. one way to think about this is:
who makes the rules and who pays for that…
That is, basically politics…who rules and who pays…

and an economic system: is a structured framework a society
uses to produce, distribute and consume goods and services…

even a cursory glance can tell the difference between the two,
the political and the economic…and we must not run into the
very common practice of mixing and maxing the economic
and the political… we must understand they are two distinct
and separate entities… and we can mix and match between the
economic and the political in our own search for a political and
economic systems… for example, we can have a political system
like democracy and an economic system like socialism, or we can
have a monarchy and also have a feudal economic system…
we can mix and match our political and economic systems…

that is very important to understand…we can even have quite
contradictory political and economic systems… like a dictatorship
as a political system and capitalism as its economic system…

Now one point to notice is that communism is not a political system,
it is an economic system… that part of the failure of the Soviet Union was to
stretch its economic system, communism into being a political system…
and we should understand this failure in terms of what America is today…
American political thought has made capitalism and our republic as
one and the same… we mix and match our political system, democracy
and our economic system, capitalism, into one…and therein
lies much of our failure, both political and economic over the
last 40 years… we treat them as equal and interchangeable…
They are not… and another mistake we commonly make is
that we often declare that ‘‘Capitalism’’ as being the most
successful economic system of all time, and the fact is,
it isn’t… the most successful economic system of all time,
was its first, the Hunter-Gatherer society which lasted, depending
on whom is speaking, had lasted up to and possible over, a million
years… whereas capitalism, as a formal system is, maybe
300 years old…and if a I am reading the signs right, we
are due to a major overhaul or even dumping capitalism,
as it has quite clearly failed over the last 40 years…

So, we have two distinct tasks before us, one to identify
the political system we should turn to and to also
identify the next economic system that will take us
into the near future…

I have begun to lay out the possibilities that we can begin
to investigate as being part of a possible future…

Kropotkin

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My bet it that your diving expeditions are more virtual-reality snorkel-type ones

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we are going to being with the political:

That today, we have several political systems going…
we have monarchies, and a republic and several pretend
democracies… but hiding behind those pretend
democracies are dictatorships… Modern day Russia
is this type of government… pretend elections to keep
up the pretense of democracy… (and this is exactly what
the GOP/MAGA party wants, pretend democracy while
being a dictatorship… note that Putin in the last Russian election,
won with an 88% vote for)

but most of the time, what we do in thinking about what our
political structure should look like, we begin with the notion itself,
democracy and stop there… but we don’t look at the reasons,
either within the political structure itself, or within the needs
of people… in another words, we posit the political structure
before wondering about the validity of that political structure…

There are two ways we understand idea’s, one is top down,
and the other is bottom up… we can go from the large to the small,
or we can go from the small to the large…
in terms of both the political and the economic, we go from
top to bottom… which is to say, we simply ignore what
people want or need… because we force people to change
or adapt to the political or economics structure, instead of
using people values and beliefs to create a political and
economic systems… which would be bottom-up means of
discovering which political and which economic system
best suits the needs of people… we meet and modify
the government and its economic structure based on
the needs of the people, not dictate terms from the
government/business down…

let us take a moment and think about this…

Kropotkin

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An economic and political system should be judged by if it serves the majority of its national citizenry or not.

:clown_face:

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So, how do we translate our needs into a format
for both a political and an economic system?

We first must understand those needs… as I have stated before,
we have both bodily and psychological needs…
we biologically need food, water, shelter, education,
health care and of course, as a biological need, love…
living without love creates clear and noticeable physical and
psychological problems for people…

and within the psychological needs are safety/security, having
esteem… both within and from without, the sense of love and
belonging, and the political can answer some of these psychological
needs, safety and security for example… moving away from
the political state that comes from Hobbes ‘‘State of Nature’’
which is as much a political format as it is a social format…
we use the political to keep as far away from this ‘‘State of Nature’’
as we possible can… so the question becomes, how do we
create a political and economic structure that allows us to meet
our various needs, both physical and psychological…
We work from the small into the larger… in this attempt
to work out a political structure…

We can deduce that part of the role or function of government is
to assure its citizens that their needs will be met… and part
of those physical needs is the need for food, water, shelter,
health care and education… what political system will best
met these physical needs?

In looking at the possible political systems for meeting our needs,
we can rule out several political systems based on their track
record… we can rule out dictatorships, oligarchies, feudalism,
any form of totalitarianism which includes fascism, and Anarchism
and Theocracy… and why can we rule out these particular systems?
Because the focus is not on what the people want or need, those
particular systems focus on what the rulers want and need, not
what the people want or need…Government to be effective must
focused on the needs of the people, not on any particular subset
of the people…like the wealthy and powerful…or those with titles…
we can work this out by thinking about this:

Government of the people, for the people, by the people…

and that lies at the heart of what government is supposed to engage
with, the people… not as this administration has done, which is
pander to a certain subset of Americans… the wealthy, white,
male and older… this is not government of the people,
this is government of a certain subset of people and that is
wrong…

Which leads us to the role of the govenment…
not only does the government have the obligation to
meet the needs of the people, but it has an obligation to
be fair and honest about it… the Government is not
to be part of the system, but a referee within that system…
the role of the Government is to balance out the equation…
not to put the finger of government on the scales but
to keep the scales balanced… this unbalance economics,
of there being a small number of billionaires and a massive
number of poor and shrinking middle class should be of
concern to the government… This administration should not
be embracing this unbalanced situation, as it has, but it
should be correcting it… this unbalance situation, of small
number of people having a massive amount of wealth is a direct
threat to America…this imbalance created by the wealthy,
is a danger because it prevents millions of Americans from
meeting their needs…millions of Americans are fighting over
an ever-smaller piece of the pie…and history is full of examples
of people finally getting fed up with being have-nots… and
we get revolutions and war…and one of the central concepts
of a state/society that works, is justice… the more successful
states/societies are the ones that make justice a central concept…
and having a few, maybe 10,000 people owning as much
wealth as half the entire planet is not anybody’s definition
of justice…in America today, CEO’s make 425 times the
salary of the average worker…and how does that make
America more just? But Kropotkin, isn’t that an economic
question, not a political one? Because the political side
has been bought and sold by big business and wealth
individuals… this is fact, not suppositiion…Citizens united
has allowed big business to own the political structure of America…
this decision by the Supreme Court has allowed the balance
of power to go to the wealthy, and that isn’t justice…
and we must return government to being a referee, of the
people, for the people, by the people…

So, one of the means we use to understand what the role
of the government really is, is this concept of Justice…
is the government really practicing Justice?
and what is Justice? it is a means of engaging in equality,
for Justice really means equality, economic, political, social
and of course, legal equality… if the government fails
to practice Justice/equality, it isn’t government of the people,
as it should be… that one of the major roles of government is
to engage with and practice, is Justice/equality…and once
again, this eliminates several forms of political systems…
dictatorships, oligarchies, any form of a totalitarianism political
system…Theocracy, and anarchism must also be removed from
consideration… So, in many ways, we are left with only
certain political systems to consider as possible candidates…
Monarchy, democracy and Republics as possible candidates
for our next political system…

and now we tackle the economic problems…

Kropotkin

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MrAuthoritarian:
An economic and political system should be judged by if it serves the majority of its national citizenry or not.‘’

Kropotkin: exactly… and that is why we can safely remove certain
political and economic systems… how does it serve the
majority of its citizens? and your dictatorship fails to serve the
majority of its citizens… as does Fascism, oligarchies and theocracies…
history has demonstrated this time and time again… how do
we include the majority of its citizens into the political process?

Kropotkin

1 Like
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now we take on our economic thoughts:

That today, we don’t practice justice/equality within the
economic should be clear to everyone… and it was clear
to Marx over 150 years ago… it is why he created Marxism…
In fact, I would say that the economic is the last place
in the world, that engages with justice and equality…
For there is no justice practiced within the economic…
Which is the heart of the capitalism system… it is not
a system of Justice/equality… it is actually an on purpose
misreading of Darwin… the Rugged individual of capitalism
is this type of misreading… now under what grounds do
the defenders of capitalism make their arguments?

That in some way, never actually explained how, but in some
fashion the people in capitalism who are engaged in the private
accumulation of wealth, in some fashion benefit the society/state
at large…that private vices help create public benefits…
again, it has never been explained as to how that works…
the correct statement should have been this:

That only by public actions, can we reap public benefits…

Disagree, ok, explain how the vast wealth accumulated by Musk,
helps create a public good?

we can think about this in terms of something we have already stated…

Economics should be of the people, for the people and by the people…

the private accumulation of wealth is actually a danger to the state/
society because by this accumulation of wealth, we must take it
away from the majority of people… there is, in theory anyway,
a limited amount of wealth/money… and for money to be useful,
it must be in the hands of the people, who then spend it, and that
is how money is useful, by its being spread around, like manure..
the more people can use money, the more useful it becomes…
that money has a public use, not a private one…
and if we were to equalize money, make money have an equality
to it, it becomes vital for the growth and progress of the state/society…
if individuals hold on to vast wealth, as Musk does, harm the state
by preventing money, which only value comes from being
‘‘spread’’ around, means that to make a state/society just,
requires that we make the economic just/equal…

This equality of money is what drives Marx in his writing,
help to create Marxism/communism… for this inequality of
wealth is damaging to the state/society is fairly clear in our
world today…

So, what do we know about the various economic systems?
that certain systems of the past, are no longer options in
today’s world… for example, economic systems like slavery,
feudalism, Mercantilism and hunter-gatherer economics
can no longer be applied to our modern world…
the environment that allows those systems to exist and prosper,
no longer exists… and that is part of the criteria we can use,
if the current situation/environment is capable of using that particular
economic system…

We can see that capitalism, which is now played out, had
a role in creating our modern world, and we can see how
countries reforming or starting out, can use capitalism to
move its state/society forward… but that is the point,
that capitalism works until it doesn’t… because of the
changing nature of our state/society, capitalism no longer
works… it is this movement/changes in the environment
that drives our changing political and economic systems…
just as we individuals must change and adapt to changing
conditions, environment, we must be able to change our
political and economic systems as a state/society…

as capitalism no longer works for the majority of its citizens,
we must change and adapt our economic system, far more
than a change in our political system… as the economic is
now a much greater danger to the state and society…
the buying and selling of politicians in our modern day state
shows us that point…

Economics of the people, for the people, by the people…
that gives us a clue as to the nature of the coming economic
change we need to make… economics must become more
just, which is to say more equal to the people working within that
system… that is to say, equality within economics require
us to move toward a more social economy, which is to say
communism or socialism…where wealth is no longer
concentrated in an ever-smaller number of people…
and this need is because of our continually changing world,
that is ever more complicated and complications must force
us to rethink our choices…a complicated world requires
us to become more complicated in our political and economic
choices… thus, individual economics, such as capitalism can
no longer be adapted for our use…the world is much to
complicated for us to engage in capitalism… the more complicate
the apparatus, the greater the need for oversight and actions
on our part…fixing a window is fairly easy because it
has few parts, fixing a car is quite complicated and thus needs
more help/knowledge…

a complicated world requires greater knowledge and more people…
this is why we cannot, as our capitalism does, restrict the number
of people who can succeed… for a successful economy as
a successful political structure, requires more and more
engagement with the people within its structure…
which is to say, the more successful political structures
have a greater number of people engaged within it…
for a state or society to succeed, it must have a vast number
of people within it, be engaged with it… and that is one
the signs that both our political and economic systems are failing…
less and less people are engaged in both… whereas to
be a successful state/society, we must have an ever increasing
number of people engaged with it…we must invest people so
they are invested in how our state/society succeeds…
a successful society/state has more investment from its citizens,
a less successful state/society has less people invested in it…
and how do we get people to invest in the state/society?

by expanding how people get rewarded by that system,
in other words, if we have millions of people lacking
some investment in the state/society, we become ever
closer to that state/society collapsing… the success of
any state/society comes from the people within that state/society
becoming ever more invested in that state/society…

and how does our modern state, which is now owned by
the powerful and wealthy, how can we become invested
in America has a state if we no longer have a say or voice in
its operations… and the same is true economically, the less
we ‘‘reward’’ people economically, the less investment in that
state/society we get… therein lies on the dangers of our
modern consolidation of both political and economic power…
ever more people drop out, both politically and economically…
enough people drop out and the state/society collapses…
exactly like the Roman Empire fell… the number of people
invested in the Roman Empire fell until it collapsed…
and we are heading that way right now…
the vast wealth being accumulated by an ever smaller number
of people simply results in an ever smaller number of people
being invested into the state/society…

This is why one of the primary reasons why we must make
justice/equality as a prime quality of our state… to bring
back the investment of the people into their state/society…
so, how do we return people back into a greater investment
into the state/society?

They must receive part of the reward of being members of that
state/society… and we don’t see that happening today…
and by allowing a greater participation of people into that
state/society, we increase people investment into the state/society…

that is how we make a stronger, greater society/state…
and that is the thing we have lost in America today, the people
investment into our state/society…
and what political and economic systems help us return
people into a greater investment into the state/society?

And once again, we can remove several political and economic
systems because they fail to increase people’s investment into
the state/society… and so what political and economic systems
increase people’s investment into the state/society?

Kropotkin

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8

let us revisit what I am saying via another path…

Entropy: the movement from order to disorder…
and how does this movement work? via energy,
energy that moves away from the body, any body,
that is entropy… because all bodies need energy
to work and function… and the loss of energy is the
movement from order to disorder…now in terms of
practical entities, we see this in the human body…
old age is simply entropy, and when enough energy leaves
the body, it dies… simple as that… as I grow older, I have
less energy… where I used to be able to run 10 or 15 miles,
of course that was 40 years ago, but today, I am exhausted
by even simple activities… that is entropy at work…

Now let us move this from bodies to the state/societies…
when energy leaves a state, that is entropy, and it moves
that state from order to disorder…a state, let us take
the Roman Empire for example… that within that state,
The Roman Empire, it maintained itself via energy…
now energy within a state includes taxes, energy put into
that state… enough energy leaves that state and it dies…
exactly as the Roman Empire died… the basic movement during
the last 300 years of the Empire was moving from putting energy
and time into the state, into the gradual loss of people putting
their energy and time into a state… that movement of going
from order to disorder is what finally killed the Roman Empire…
Why work hard for a state that gives nothing back in return?
Why pay taxes if those taxes fail to improve or make my life
better? Not only economically did the Roman Empire lose
entropy, but politically, why bother investing in the Roman
Empire is there is no benefit for me or my family… and that is
exactly the path of entropy today… people are disengaging because
there they have no voice or say in the modern world…either
politically or economically…

and we reach a vital point about human beings…
that if we don’t have a say or voice in actions pertaining to us,
why should we engage in that state or environment?
People are disengaging from the US because there is no
say in matters that directly impact us… and with the loss
of investment of each person, we go just another step closer to disorder
and enough disorder, just like a person’s body, the state dies…
if you get nothing from being a member of a particular state or society,
why bother engaging with it? and that is the path of entropy leading to
the loss of energy for the state and finally death… hence the
American movement from order to disorder…

we are faced with a decision, are we going to go down
the path of the Roman Empire or are we going to bring
back the energy which will turn America from a state of
disorder to a state of order?

Kropotkin

1 Like
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we have another example: we have corporations saying that
employees should ‘‘take ownership’’ of issues…which is
another way of saying become invested in this, and yet,
there is no reason to take ownership of something because
there are no benefits or reward in doing so… it literally
does nothing for us to take ‘‘ownership’’ of a corporate
issue… all it does is increase our workload without any
benefits to us…

to become invested in something means it will, in some fashion,
benefit us… and it becomes even clearer that by the actions of
the state and big business that we are ever ongoing reducing
people’s investment in either the government or business…
for example, if we take away people’s rights, like the recent
destruction of the voting rights act, that in doing so, we also
take away incentive for people to engage in our political systems…
if I am gay or trans, and people take away my rights, to be gay or
to be trans, where is my incentive to further participate in
America? with the removal of every single right, we remove
people’s incentive to participate… why put your energy, time,
trouble or effort into a system that harms us? and if enough
people no longer engage with the political or social or legal or
economic, the system loses energy, goes from order to disorder…
the end result of preventing people from being who they are,
is the increase in disorder… as they no longer will
participate in a system that actively attacks them… why would
anyone participate in a system that is attacking them?

We can see from certain actions that America are actively engaged in
bringing about people’s disengagement from America… another
example is the ban on Abortions… allowing legal abortions,
it doesn’t say, you must have an abortion, it say you can if
need be, have an abortion… by preventing Abortions, the only
result is to have people take away their energy and effort from
helping a state or society that is preventing a right…
the war on Abortions simply takes away energy and effort
from people… and this leads us to an increase in entropy,
moving from order to disorder…
the war on Abortion is increasing entropy, moving from order
to disorder… and it is just another brick in the wall…
and enough bricks, and the system will collapse…
it is really that simple…

The question is not how many rules can we put in place, but
how can we create incentive for people to increase their energy
and effort into America… taking away people’s rights is clearly
not the path to increase American’s effort or energy… it does
the opposite…

The path to American greatness lies in increasing the amount
of energy and effort Americans put into America… increasing
our investment in America is done by inclusion, not exclusion…
the more people are excluded from rights and benefits, the more
energy we lose…we go from order to disorder…
to MAGA, we have to increase the average American investment
into America…

If we are legally, economically, politically and socially excluded,
as we are increasing traveling to, then where is our incentive
to put our energy into America? we can still turn this around,
but it requires, demands inclusion, not exclusion…
giving rights back to gays, trans, the poor, minorities,
and women, is the path back to American Greatness…

If I am excluded politically, for example my right to vote
is taken away, what is my incentive to improve America?
if I am unable to practice my being myself by legally preventing
me from being gay or trans, then where is my incentive to
make America better?

Kropotkin

1 Like
10

to hold to the concept of Justice, which is equality, then if
some people can vote, that means all people can vote,
if some people have a certain right, then all people can have
that right…this is the bottom line in justice, that if some have
it, then all can have it… and if we deny justice/equality to some,
then what incentive do they have to be a part of America? Justice
to be justice is the application of rights and benefits to all,
if I do work and I am not rewarded, then what is my incentive
to engage at all?

Kropotkin

1 Like
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@Peter_Kropotkin

It would be nice if you liberals cared more about economic issues and poor people than homosexuals or what public bathrooms troons utilize.

It would be nice if you liberals didn’t vote for do nothing billionaires or sycophant ex lawyers.

Frankly I find your democracy a bit lacking touching the more tougher structural problems of society anymore. Either take on the core problems of society head on or be left behind in the dust politically.

There’s a reason why communism is more appealing for the younger crowd, because liberalism has shown itself to be ineffectual to do much of anything.

Other than gays, homosexuals, trannies, and stubborn radical feminists, what has political liberalism achieved in the last twenty years?

From where I am standing you’re a political dead end quickly becoming irrelevant.

:clown_face:

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