Order as such requires an explanation, because order is a unity brought from without in a diversity of things. In other words, diversity is by itself many, the opposite of unity. Therefore, if unity is brought in a diversity, this fact requires a principle which acts upon the diversity from without.
But theists explain the world by a great mind.
But every mind exhibits some order.
Therefore, every mind has to be explained.
Therefore, the mind of the creator of the universe would require an explanation, and it would mean finding a cause.
Therefore, a being cannot be a mind and causeless.
But theists claim that God is so.
And it is impossible
Therefore, God cannot exist.
In order to escape this conclusion, theists have to say that the divine mind is in fact perfectly unitary. In him, the various ideas, thoughts, feelings, will and intelligence, all mental phenomena melt into one homogeneous soup.
But such a view is barely intelligible. It could satisfy some mystics, but not people who want a rational view of God.
barely intellegible? how so? what authority do you have to claim to know the inner mechanisims of the mind of a being you cant even percieve? no man alive can truly grasp the concept of infinity in its totallity and such it is with god. if he is truly infinite, then one cant claim to prove what he does as illogical because our logic would be infinitley inferior.
The idea of God being infinite would be a rather long thread but bring sup a good point in the sense of “if god created everything who created god” statement. Everything must have a beginning, and everything must have an End… for if that weren’t so then time would not exist. Now if God knows everything and knows what will happen to us… why put us here? Especially ones in which he knows will go to Hell… Why send someone who can be leading a perfectly good and moral life to Hell just for not worshipping God? Why not instead bare us within the gates of Heaven for all eternity so that everyone will worship God… the second proposal makes more sense to me. If god is infinite and knows everything that will come to pass, then why even make human beings if he knows what will happen should he make us? Eventually in my own opinion if “The end of Days” doesn’t come to pass within the next 1000 years or so… Religion in itself will collapse, but this is debatable but if it were true then what will happen to God?
In daily life the Growth and Decay of everything is evidence enough to know everything has a beginning and End. Have YOU seen everything to know that EVERYTHING doesnt have a beginning and end?
The thought that time did not exist before us is impossible to think or fathom which is why we have a hard time understanding the concept of God because he would have to live outside of Time to be in existance.
Sam, you do realize these ‘proofs’ are nothing but linguistic gymnastics right?
You could ‘prove’ anything, and I do mean anything, through language alone. That alone disqualifies all linguistic proof as meaningless.
But on the other hand, your threads usually make for interesting reads, so keep on keepin on…
Knowledge is the holding in the mind of the knower the thing known. God exists both as knower and thing known (Aristotle), as well as identity of will with the thing willed (Aquinas), and thereby there is some kind of unity out of plurality: Mind/The Known/Will – if that kind of plurality is satisfactory for you.
If not, I might just ask why a non-contingent mind has to be explained. But good things came out of the question, i think. You must be very perceptive.
I’ve actually been thinking of the universe as an extension of God for some time now (technically making me more of a panentheist than a pantheist). Years, actually. It started when I began to contemplate the idea of God’s participation along with contemplating temporality and contemplating what time really is and…well, one thing kind of led to the other and I connected some dots. I think Spinoza’s fascinating and you are right to be such a fan (and advocate). I’m still hung up on the hard determinism, though.
now its ignorant comments like this that make me angry. oh, im sorry lasko, i wasnt aware that the hairline fraction of a percent of the universe that youve happened to witness is the end all definitive proof that everything has a beggining and an end. i think ill walk down and ask someone on the street wether or not they enjoy snickers candy bars and then attribute their anwser to the entire population, because that would make infinitley more sense than what youre proposing. how someone who even has a rudimentary grasp of philosophy or elementary mathematics can make a comment so blatenley ignorant is deserving of more speculation than any topic on this board. this is why we need the electoral college.
