A little provocation to spice things up

The tenants of Islam are false and should not be practiced. Muhammad either made it all up, or he was not real. Islam is immoral, racist and sexist and should be banished from the land.

Any takers?

I agree with you 100%.

Why just islam? :astonished:

Shall we include all the usual religions that have been railed into the pavement day in day out? Islam has been getting off easy. We could criticize the religion of the ancient Greeks or Egyptians, but I’d say that no one here would hold any validity to them. Granted I lump all religions together in the same bullshit stew, but like i said in the thread title this is just to spice things up.

Come on. Someone defend Islam. I’ve never debated a Muslim before.

Perhaps it isn’t the religion that is bad, but the people who use it to dominate others.

What other use is there for religion if not the mind’s domination?

I´m sure those who truly believe see it otherwise.

I’m not sure they do… those who believe insist on it being true perhaps… but they would then argue that since it’s true it’s a good thing that it dominates their minds…

Mm I see what you mean. I guess any “truth” must dominate the mind, especially religion which entails a comprehensive lifestyle plan. Perhaps it´s the origin which matters. My view is that religion was either directly aimed at mental domination, or by some seriously deluded people thinking it was truth from the very start. But still, I´d expect there are disbelievers around today whose sole purpose is mental domination and the power they can thereby gain.

Considering the role of religion and whom it has favored… I would say that is likely the case. the pope had quite a bit to say about the politics of the world at one time…nearly an emperor… until the protestants showed up… broke the chain of command… it was originally god-> the pope-> the king then became god → king… and then just god as we have it today… which basically means they make up their own rules… except in amarica… it seems to be Capitalism-> god… don’t know how that one happened…

so much for a discussion of Islam.

sorry :frowning:

don’t think there are that many muslims on this board… strange actually…

I dunno, I’m not Muslim, but I think your opening volley was fatally flawed from the start:

These are mutually exclusive claims. So you opened by saying “Either Islam is bull for this reason, or it’s bull for this completely contrary other reason”. Picking one would have given the impression that you actually had an argument you were presenting. Listing both gives the impression that you just want to say “Screw you, Islam” and the actual reasons are an afterthought.
From that perspective, I don’t think the thread would be enticing to an Islamic apologist, if there were any around here watching.


Well for one thing my opening attack was entirely sarcastic. And I also did it to see if there were any Muslims here.

Yes I know. Thats not what’s important though. What is important is that there are a total of 2 options:

  1. Its all true
  2. Its all false

Since I reject #1 I felt it only right to present #2. If #2 is the right way to go, then it has to be made more specific. Was Muhammad a liar? Or was he totally nonexistent?

Keep in mind I would not have even thought of starting this thread had there been a higher level of muslim/islam discussion here on this forum.

I’m spicing things up guys… That doesn’t mean i like the taste of the spice.

Really? Those are the only two options? So there is nothing in Islam you find admirable or valuable at all?

Which ‘tenants’ (I assume you mean ‘tenets’)?

Uccisore already handed your ass back to you regarding this, but I’ll ask another question - what did he make up?

Banishing beliefs just because you don’t believe in them is immoral, racist, sexist and should be banned…

I doubt it, since your post is the theological equivalent of graffiti saying ‘I took a shit on this wall’…

Domination, yes; but we could give it less sinister motives. Going back way further in human history, towards its beginning where population was growing and codes of conduct more pressing, perhaps the intellectuals of the time were faced with a similar situation which Nietzsche grappled with. Instead of faced with the idea that God is dead (i.e. has been and gone), such early people may similarly wondered how some sort of strict moral code could be implemented with weight. Hence the origins of God, the birth of God, so to speak. So on either side of God´s life we have the first intellectuals and Nietzsche. One could argue that while the initial idea of God was a useful tool, foresight was poor because absolute authority ultimately caused more problems in the future, such as hostility to relativism, and irresolvable conflict between civilisations which are grounded on similar ideas.

[size=75](Yes I did mean to spell it like that. Thank you for the correction.)[/size]

To someoneisatthedoor and Xunzian:
What I was referring to was the theological proclamations held up by Islam and its followers. I don’t know how to make it anymore clear that I do not think in this sort of elitist, bigoted, anti-religious sort of way. The only reason i posted it was because no one else has and I thought it would be interesting to switch gears and critique Islam for a change. But apparently thats not going to float very nicely on ILP because no one here is a Muslim. And until someone comes out and proclaims the contrary, I’ll still think that this site is an Islam-free site.

And Xunzian, what is valuable in a religion is not the same thing as what is true. I suppose I could have presented the premise a little better to portray my purpose of saying that the theology of Islam is false. And yes, either the theology is true, or it is false. Either Allah is the true god, or he is not. Morals and virtues are a totally different matter than theology.

What did he make up??? Uh… Islam. The story of him transcribing the Quran from Allah, and everything associated with Islam becoming a religion justified by its followers. Thats what he made up. How is that any different from L. Ron Hubbard spreading Scientology? Or Joseph Smith spreading Mormonism? Or Jesus spreading Christianity? Or Bobby Henderson spreading the story of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? All of these stories are on par with each other.

Of course it is true that I do not believe in this particular system, but that is not the reason I would want it banished from the land. I don’t believe in Feng Shui, but that doesn’t mean i want it gone and out of here. Banishment (or social sanctioning at the very least) can be justified upon occurrences of racism, sexism, immoral acts, and other various ethical/moral/social injustices. If it can be shown that a belief system has participated in any of the aforementioned activities, then banishment or sanctioning can be justified. If banishment is not completely appropriate then reformation is surely appropriate. But seeing as how the Quran is pretty much set in stone and can never have the same meaning or impact when translated out of Arabic, I think its safe to say that reformation of Islam would be next to impossible.

OK, so you admit that there are valuable elements of Islam. Now, I think what you are going on and doing is the same mistake I accuse some theists of doing, which is mistaking a set of moral guidelines for history. The Qu’ran is pretty much a series of value-statements that can’t really be taken as “true” or “untrue” but instead can only be deemed useful or not useful.