Interesting article about wealth in America. I recall hearing some talking head mention how to stop poverty some time ago. He claimed the evidence pointed at two things- finish school and avoid teenage pregnancy. It’s perhaps more evidence of a start for objective moral value, something many philosophers dislike.
“The reason the poor are poor is that they are more likely to not finish school, not work, not save, and get hooked on drugs and alcohol and run afoul of the law. Liberals tend to blame it on history (slavery) or lack of opportunity (poor schools, discrimination), while conservatives blame government (welfare) and personal failings (lack of discipline), but both sides agree that these behaviors are so contrary to self-interest that they must be irrational.”
I tend to think that the premise expressed here is backwards. People tend not to finish school and get pregnant as a teenager because they are poor. Since social mobility in the US is crap, it follows that those born poor will, for the most part, remain poor. With that comes the other considerations.
I disagree. There was a news magazine broadcast (Dateline or 20/20, something like that) that I saw that discussed life in the ghetto. There were a few kids who claimed they will strive to get their education, and they were succeeding with their grades.
Anyone can acquire good marks and a barren womb by the end of 12th grade. Granted they can be hampered by their environment or persuaded by peers, but there’s really no good excuse to not finish school.
I believe in a combination of nurture and nature.
The poor are so because of some ‘deficiency’ that keeps them from adapting adequately or efficiently and the system is geared to keep them where they are.
“Social mobility” is the carrot.
Truth be told, stability is more conducive to harmonious coexistence and growth and so any system does not allow much social mobility. The mother of social mobilities being a revolution.
Social mobility, like the notion of Democracy, is one of those social concessions which relies mostly on myth and is meant to maintain a level of hopeful contentment.
These two social mythologies, coupled with a general dumbing-down, is what keeps the peace and the discipline.
the real problem is motivation. What motives get people to succeed. What motives get people to fail.
What you love in life is your motivation. You want to control people, control what they love. People that love ideals (such as religion) are harder to control. It’s all in the name of the persuit of joy.
The problem really is what people take for granted. When people get in a routine and take love for granted, they are in danger of growing apart. When people take free time for granted, they tend to be attracted to temporary worldly pleasures, that have a tendeny of becomming control factors (always trying to outdo what you have achieved).
The real problem is job life. How corperations have taken away moral sence (an emotionaly starile enviorment to promote a false sence of security), and replaced it with a beurocracy. Most jobs have been reduced to mindless repitition. So all people are left with is the game of balancing their demeanor with instant gratifications.
It’s not the money you make (thanks to corperations), it’s what you do with the money. I think the best advancement we can make is creating an enviorment where people have constructive lifestyles, and socialize according to common interrests. Instead of solalizing according to universal instant gratifications.
And of course, people can complete these things, however, in poor communities these traits aren’t considered valuable. I agree, this is short-sighted, but the question is what to do to fix it, and blaming the victim is rarely a useful course of action. I mean, middle-class America clearly doesn’t value physical fitness (see: American obesity rates), something that costs many man-hours of work each year due to fat-related health problems and also dramatical shortens the lives of the obese individuals. Saying, “All they have to do is eat less, eat better, and exercise more” clearly hasn’t worked too well, especially when the infrastructure in America is such that it takes a great deal of effort not to overeat crappy foods and lead a sedentary lifestyle.
A part of this depends on what it means to be irrational versus rational. In economics a rational person is one who behaves according to their expected self-interest. In other words, If a person wants X & they strive after X then they are irrational. A person is considered irrational if they want X but take every step possible to ensure that they get Y, where Y represents something that they themselves do not believe will have anything to do with actually achieving their goal of X.
The key here is ‘expected’. And education is the key to expectations. And I’m not talking merely about the education one receives in school but also the education one receives at home, from t.v., from peers, from their favorite rap or rock stars, etc.
People often claim that they want to have money but when they see someone proudly drive past them in their $80,000 car they actually look down on that person. They call her greedy & selfish. Someone who ‘sold out’ in order to get ahead in life. Or they will sometimes become absorbed in a sort of self-pity. “Man I wish I had rich parents who could afford to buy me a nice car.” “I bet your daddy bought that for you” or any other excuses or putdowns. But then what do they do? They go out to their local dance club or back to their mom or dad’s house to play more video games. Their ACTIONS speak louder than their words.
The poor are poor for a myriad of reasons but lets look at few of the other things that help them remain poor. One major reason people remain poor is that they have the luxory of doing so. That is to say that the incentives are set up in such a way that sometimes it pays to not have a job. Another reason is laziness. The fact of the matter is some people my claim they do not want to be poor but in reality their actions suggest otherwise.
Now I understand that their are circumstances where a person is actually trapped in poverty. These are usually the cases of early pregnancy, drug addictions or any form of ‘self-entrapment’. That is, things people do to themseves that trap them. These people are now trapped in poverty because of their past choices.
There is also another set of people that are trapped in poverty through no fault of their own. But I suspect that this group is much smaller than many people believe. They are the group of people who couldn’t continue their education because they had an extremely sick family member who needs their full-time attention. Perhaps we could add those who had extreme misshaps when they were younger or a wife who’s husband ran off and left her alone with the children. But we need to be carefull not to include those who simply want to use a tragedy as an excuse for not acheiving what they want.
The point I’m trying to make is that the vast majority of poor people who claim they want more money, are doing nothing to get it. They feel like second class citizens but they take no ACTIONS to change their situation. They are unwilling to make the necessary sacrifices in order to have what they claim they want. They demand social reform so that they can have their cake and eat it to.
Person A pumps their fist in the air while shouting, “QUIT HOLDING ME BACK! YOU ARROGANT STUCK UP RICH PEOPLE! WHY WONT YOU LET ME GET AHEAD IN LIFE? AREN’T I WORTHY?”
Person A comes home after a tough days work and sits down on the sofa to relax & watch T.V. Noone can expect him to do anything more. Afterall he’s excited.
Person B quietly comes home after a long days work and, determined not to remain poor forever, takes a shower before heading off to night classes. Person B will sacrifice relaxation and recreation until she has the money she wants to be able to actually enjoy her relaxation and recreation.
Thats just it the problem though. We cant fix it. We shouldn’t fix it. What we should do is let people pay for their actions. You are right… in poor communities these traits aren’t considered valuable. Stop and think about that. Education is the only answer. It does not force people to change their minds and a government shouldn’t try to force people to do it. Give them the opportunity & let those people, who want it bad enough to actually take action, take action.
If a person wants to be fat… let them. Who are you to fprce someone tp YOUR ideal of the ‘healthyman’ is any better than the obesse one.
From number three:“Our evidence indicates that income and educational attainment are causally related.”
I believe the starting salary for brand new MBA’s is 85k-100k. That includes those where this is the first job out of college, though they’ll be at the lower end. I know the number of millionares and billionares has risen fast and most are ‘new’ money and many came from middle and lower class backgrounds.
Saying, “All they have to do is eat less, eat better, and exercise more” clearly hasn’t worked too well, especially when the infrastructure in America is such that it takes a great deal of effort not to overeat crappy foods and lead a sedentary lifestyle.
Yes, but I am only responsible for me. I can’t(nor can the Gov without force) control the eating habits or educational habits of person X. And I don’t think I should have to. The point is we know some of the causes of effects we see. Dictating the choice is another matter. Saying there is no choice is another matter.
The poor are so because of some ‘deficiency’ that keeps them from adapting adequately or efficiently and the system is geared to keep them where they are.
I don’t know about that. I see one type of people in perpetual poverty- THE LAZY.
In watching poor areas, often filled with immigrants, it is interesting to see how some start poor and quickly transform. Hispanics come here much poorer than the poor here(for instance Mexicans may live on $500 a year, while a poor person here on $12,000 and owns a cell phone) but within short order begin work, and owning business however small and seemingly limited.
But in other communities you’ll see people standing around, looking to break into a store or just generally finding any excuse NOT to do something. Again, it appears on the surface, to be ONE type of person.
Something here is interesting to the discussion, but I won’t bring it up because it has been invalidated when applied universally but seems to be rooted in some truth.
I can see all sides of this argument as having varying degrees of thruth in them.
I think it all boils down to this- You create your own life. The obsticles may be harder to overcome, but if you fail in one, the tougher the other obsticles become.
It’s hard for most people to not give into their sexual desires. It’s easy though, to wear a rubber.
It’s hard for most people to not be lazy. Goals are hard to achieve in a bad environment. Getting out of a bad environment may or may not be hard.
One of the most intelligent things phil has ever said I think that plays into the whole “I’m only responsible for myself” cop-out. Well, it isn’t really a “cop-out” so much as a gross misunderstanding as to what the self is and the great self vs. the petty self . . .
Well, I view the self as a nested hierarchy of relationships so from that the idea that we “create our own lives” as independent entities is nonsensical. Given the place of parents within this hierarchy, it follows that bad parenting has a disastrous effect on the child. But one’s immediate society also plays a huge role, especially with respect to the tension that exists between one’s immediate society and the larger societies that one comes into contact with. The greater the tension, the more difficulty an individual will have “getting by”.
I do agree. But I believe that when one reaches an indipendant age, it’s up to them to create their life as they see fit. My parents did little for me, it could have been worse of course, but I turned out okay (thanks to myself).
Of course, if it was worse, I could have lots of psycological problems that may or may not be able to be fixed. This is an exception to the rule though. Most people don’t grow up abused mentally/physically.
People are given superficial comparison factors from TV,… and it’s left on parents to compensate for this.
If parents don’t have a good relationship,… and don’t work out problems with their own personal system,… kids are inherently naive on what to do with their own problems and are left with no starting position to improve upon. Also, if parents teach kids cop outs and ways to ignore the problem. Then what are kids left with to perfect.
Single parents don’t have a contrast from the difference of men and women to show kids. Single mothers lack sternness inherently and thus kids lack sternness in repercussions. Not to mention the many other aspects of the difference between men and women.
Hum, I was virgin when I married, and I have a college education, and I have never abused alcohol or done illegal drugs, and I have spent most my life below the poverty level. I think there are a few economic reasons for this. Slavery? how about gender discrimination?
Much depends on the family we experience in our childhood and the economic reality of that family. Women have not always had equal opportunity, and when we enetered WWII marriages sky rocketed. After the war, divorces sky rocketed, leaving single women to raise children, when gender discrimination prevented females from entering some careers, and enforced a social custom of women doing women’s work for lower pay. Even when men were hired to do the same job, they were paid more, just because they were male.
When we choose to change the rules, the same thing happened in the US that happen in the USSR when the communist “liberated women” with a propaganda campiegn that destroyed the woman’s value and social esteem as full time homemakers. We did the same when the honor mother became “just a housewive”. Divorce and abortion rates sky rocketed and increasingly women and children fell below the poverty level. In the US we can add to this, increasingly women and children have been involved in crime and violence, both as victims and perpetrators. Our civilized order has been reduced to barbaric order, and over this mass of humanity is a despotic government fulfilling Tocqueville’s 1830 vision of what would happen to Christian democracies.
However, the US is the strongest military might on earth, not only because of the vast sums it has spent on the rapid advancement of military technology, and gearing all public education for this purpose, but also by doubling the work force, it has increased the revenue to pay for this military might.
Children reared by single fathers are having their problems too! Sternness without nuturing can result a child so damaged that he is no good to himself or anyone else. Ouch, now that I think about this, I can see many examples of this problem throughout my life. I never put two and two together before, but if these people were bloody, we could easily see the damage caused by divorces and bad parenting.
